Author Topic: MVAWT: new mag-lev VAWT wind turbine (Read 16742 times)

capthook · « **on:** February 06, 2009, 04:50:17 PM »

So I'm wondering about this device.

How efficienct is it?

What about the mag-lev aspect? How well will this work? Would it be worth the extra cost for the large levitating magnets? How much friction would be eliminated?

Check out this new 'MVAWT': 'Magnetically-Levitated Axial Flux Alternator with Programmable Variable Coil Resistance, Vertical Axis Wind Turbine'

Large construction with many/large magnets and coils. And uses magnetic levitation rather than bearings.

Some proposed benefits"

roof mounted (no tower needed easing installation and neighbor problems)
5mph cut-in speed
almost silent
variable resistance coils
increased efficiency due to no bearing friction

So looks like a huge axal flux VAWT. Some questions:

the magnetic bearings: how well would they actually work? while you eliminate the downward force friction, how does it stay cenetered to prevent friction from rubbing against the center pole?
the claims of 200% increased output due to 'roof effect' ??
the ouput claims seem overly optimistic?

Interesting!

Links:

http://www.enviro-energies.com/index.htm

(company page)

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Enviro_Energies

(PESWiki.com directory page - good info and vids)

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/01/magwind_vertica.php

(treehugger article)

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/video_player.shtml?vid=913522&dst=nbc|widget|Jay%20Leno%27s%

20Garage%20Video&_source=nbc|widget|Jay%20Leno%27s%20Garage%20Video

(short interview with Jay Leno)

capthook · « **Reply #1 on:** February 06, 2009, 09:51:34 AM »

So not ALL bearings are eliminated - just the load bearing ones.

There are still bearings on the vertical shaft to maintain alignment.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=luCfAAAAEBAJ&dq=7303369

capthook · « **Reply #2 on:** February 06, 2009, 09:55:13 AM »

So........

I posted this in the wind section.

Then the topic was deleted! Why??!?

And having added it to my hotlist, I now have a blank, un-clickable hotlist topic.

How do I remove this?

And again - why would this have been deleted? A comment from the 'editors' would been nice!

Dave B · « **Reply #3 on:** February 06, 2009, 10:46:05 AM »

It's neat, it works and it's another diversion to sell the "mount it on your house, power you house" pitch that we have seen for many, many years. Also a little trickery with their own term for "roof effect". Power out is still based on wind speed and swept area, take a close look at their well diguised numbers and charts. This is still a vertical axis machine, period. They will sell some, yes. They will fade away when people wise up, yes. Buyer beware. Dave B.

TomW · « **Reply #4 on:** February 06, 2009, 11:02:33 AM »

Dave B;

Well said and exactly why we discourage these type posts in the main forum. Its pimping for the scammers. Period End Quote.

P.T. Barnum said it best about "one born every minute". I leave it to the readers to look up what.

I prefer to keep working on functional upgrades on my systems than respond "why" these go away in the main forum.

Dans stated policy on both VAWT and Hydrogen posts is very simple. If it is something you are doing, fine. Otherwise its subject to disappearing. It is what we call Policy.

There you go, folks, I shall not respond beyond that.

Tom.

tecker · « **Reply #5 on:** February 06, 2009, 12:37:02 PM »

Those stand up coils look like a mess and self sevice is pretty much out of the Question unless you have a crane.

Janne · « **Reply #6 on:** February 06, 2009, 01:48:00 PM »

hehe I liked the part in the video, where the horribly wobbling magnet disk was shown

capthook · « **Reply #7 on:** February 06, 2009, 02:05:43 PM »

Tom -

Thanks for the reply. I have read the polices several times - and didn't see anything listed that I would have violated. However, you certainly are entitled to your 'editorial review'.

I now understand where you are coming from and why it was deleted - it is your opinion they are 'scammers'.

However, with Ed Bakley Jr. and Jay Leno on board, you might reconsider your position.

And I was NOT 'pimping' for the 'scammers' - I found the construction of interest -

especially the 'magnetic bearings'.

Most the builds here use trailer hubs with heavy grease - lots of resistance.

Using electric motor grade bearings with oil reduces this.

'Magnetic bearings' might reduce this even further in this application and the way they are implemented are of interest (to me anyway).

Thanks again for the reply :-)

- - -

I ran across this new 'nano-lube':

http://www.diamondlube.com/

Anyone tried this - any info? At $12 for a small tube - thinking I might try it out.

- - -

Tecker -

I agree the standup coils look like a poor design decision. Seems like they aren't well secured and would flop around.

:-)

capthook · « **Reply #8 on:** February 06, 2009, 02:09:18 PM »

P.S.

It would be nice to know how to remove the deleted story from my hotlist ;-)

TheCasualTraveler · « **Reply #9 on:** February 06, 2009, 02:34:55 PM »

I agree that most of these commercial VAWTs are probably scams.

I also agree that their ratings are horribly exaggerated.

However, I think that with all the people working on them, someone (like Ed)is going to hit on something that although it may not get close to a HAWT in efficiency it will fill it's own niche and it will probably come about through help from boards like this one.

That said, THIS forum is about making your OWN electricity so I understand that posts that seem to be hyping a commercial product don't belong.

Capthook did pose some questions however, skeptical of the claims and it would seem to me that thats fair discussion for those folks working on VAWTs.

ghurd · « **Reply #10 on:** February 06, 2009, 03:40:10 PM »

I find it interesting how Jay says how smooth and easy it turns, then the guy points out that is for a demonstration and unit shown does Not use mag lev.

Jay has not seen one, and Ed 'Begley' Jr will not be using one.

They have a bit more disposable income than most of us, so purchasing a POS won't bother them as much as most.

I don't see where it says Ed Begley Jr is not being compensated for his endorsement.

I do see where "about us" is 'coming soon', the distributors are 'coming soon', and the cost of the one shown is $7000.

I find it VERY interesting the company will go through all the cost and work for mag lev, but use a fairly poor "sail" design. The VAWT guys would not use that on a $7000 machine.

Interesting, the exposed magnets have no coils? Or have no flux return path?

All the cost in magnets to reduce bearing costs because of the high weight.

If I understand the concept, the bearings in it still has take the brunt of the wind force.

It is good Jay is talking about RE to the masses.

He also has that Street Walking thing.

DIY possible or not, it looks like a sales pitch.

G-

capthook · « **Reply #11 on:** February 06, 2009, 03:51:13 PM »

Well I certainly wouldn't purchase a unit and am definantly not proposing anyone else do so either - any product for that matter. Build-your-own for sure.

But to be inspired by a design to come up with a solution of your own or to build your own incoporating some of the ideas being used by others can be useful.

While strict reading of Patent Law would theoretically prohibit building a unit for self-use incorporating the processes in the patent, the spirit of the law and one of the underlying premises of the patent system (and one of the reasons for such detailed drawings etc) is for advancement of the science/art.

To replicate the patent in hopes of improving on it is what leads to new breakthroughs.

How might horizontal (passive) magnetic bearings be developed/incorporated/developed?

That is my thinking/inspiriation from this device....

capthook · « **Reply #12 on:** February 06, 2009, 04:02:59 PM »

And also the variable-resistance aspect.

A computer/logic circuit controlled coil array.

I think it's a great idea.

Rather than a fixed cut-in, you can produce at least SOME power in even very low-wind speeds, and then 'kick-in' additional coils as the wind speed increases for greater output.

Kind of like a star/delta switch, but more refined.

This is the first time I've seen this idea presented although it seems a basic idea.

CmeBREW · « **Reply #13 on:** February 07, 2009, 08:13:15 AM »

One thing made me laugh big though-- when Leno said "That after the initial cost everything is FREE energy"!

He has hundreds of thousands of dollars in his RE-system at his shop -- and he says it's FREE! Talk about fooling one's self. Wish I was so rich I could fool myself like that. Ha

- At least its getting the word out.

wdyasq · « **Reply #14 on:** February 07, 2009, 08:49:58 AM »

I remember doing the calculations on area and claimed power and thinking it was like saying a tortoise must be a fast animal because of the streamlining of the shell.

All of the VAWT designs, with the exception of Ed's Lens2, have been very optimistic to just plain flat outright lies. As a consumer and having worked for and built things on my own, I despise the dishonest sales and companies. I wish the customer outrage was so large against those folks they would have trouble getting a job as a manure shoveler.

I also wish the VAWT lovers and 'kool-aid drinkers' would at least do the research on what has failed before subjecting similar project review requests on those of us who have done said research. If they fail to do that, maybe they could be convinced to just 'run the numbers' and see if these new and improved scams are a bit over the top.

When the poster reads the output and compares it to what is possible (and the possible is below claimed output) Then the post could read, "I found this new turbine design and the promoters are full of it."

Ron

electrondady1 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 07, 2009, 10:38:19 AM »

to me ,it's a little bit like those old fantasy movies or animay.

were they have a lighter than air vehicle that resembles a sailboat.

with a gas bag or something up were the sail would be.

the size of the gas bag is about 1/10th the size that would actually be required to lift it.

there are usually some oddly made and pedal powered propellers used to move the thing to where it's supposed to get to.

you can make usable power with a vertical axis mill but you need a lot of swept area to do it.

somehow, these sellers are building mills, about the size that people wish they could be, . not what they need to be .

not sure if that makes sense to anyone.

capthook · « **Reply #16 on:** February 08, 2009, 09:24:41 PM »

Dang wdyasq - alot of anger there :-/

Again - I'm not promoting the design or even saying it's a good one.

But it IS huge - what, 40 large magnets on an at least 40" diameter rotor?

3x bigger than most builds here so it's bound to put out some power!

No comments on the mag-lev or variable-resistance aspects?

Again - those are the two things I find of interest in this device.

And while a HAWT will outperform, most folks don't have the land/location to be able to raise the huge tower needed for maximum performacne. So a functional VAWT has a place in the market. Yes?!? Yes....

the other 90% of people that don't have the land/location to raise a HAWT.

A smaller/low-wind speed VAWT would be more practical IMO... then put up 4 of them if you like!

wdyasq · « **Reply #17 on:** February 09, 2009, 06:42:42 AM »

"Dang wdyasq - alot of anger there :-/"

More mad than angry ....

Anybody can be ignorant. Most ignorance can be cured by research. However, if the places one gets the information are a bunch of serial liars ... (insert governments, politicians, overzealous sales BS and such in this group), One cannot make an honest evaluation.

As one who has done the research, I feel promoters of IDIOTIC ideas should be exposed. If someone spends money on one of these over-hyped devices, IMO, they will be wasting money. This reflects on the entire RE industry, not just the one product.

"A smaller/low-wind speed VAWT would be more practical IMO... then put up 4 of them if you like!"

I am waiting to see one that will produce enough power so 4 may give sufficient output to be worthwhile.....

Ron

ghurd · « **Reply #18 on:** February 09, 2009, 07:53:03 AM »

"variable-resistance"?

You mean the stuff about the flowing current slows the RPM?

Every wind turbine uses that same principle. Yes, even the kind with cores.

Too many amps and the blades stall. Not enough swept area (or cut-in is too early)

Not enough amps and the blades run away. Alternator not powerfull enough for the blades.

It is one of the most basic design rules in anything wind powered. Matching blades to the PMA.

Nobody would expect a 5KW PMA to make 5KW with a 20" box fan blade.

Nobody would expect a 5KW blade set to make 5KW when powering an Ametek.

You are placing far too much 'science value' into statements aimed at potential customers who have no idea how these things work.

G-

TomW · « **Reply #19 on:** February 09, 2009, 08:38:06 AM »

G;

Yeah, that variable resistance mumbo jumbo is equivalent to stating a "NEW & IMPROVED" Boat design uses an "Osmosis Proof Hull". Since most [all] boats keep the water on the outside most [all] boats resist the movement of water through the hull.

It sounds super cool and oh so techy sounding but its mumbo jumbo. Only the uninformed and / or gullible would fall for it.

Exactly why we discourage these posts on the main forum. Most are just trolling for suckers. This is no different.

Cherry picking ideas is one thing but accepting their overall claims is a bit unreasonable.

To the original poster: Please build it and prove us wrong. Once you start that then you might see some ideas flow here but linking to a site with "big ideas" will generally lead to an analysis of said site that may be different than your initial impression. As you found here in your Diary.

Thats as nice as I can be about it.

Tom

capthook · « **Reply #20 on:** February 09, 2009, 10:00:46 AM »

Some common home-brew wind turbine specs:

Cut in: 140 RPM

Furling: 650 RPM

So what is it generating at 30 RPM - 120 RPM, nothing.

How about in wind that would result in 700 RPM, nothing.

Wouldn't it be nice to broaden the RPM's of power collection?

What say we use 'variable resistance' in a 12 coil turbine.

1. In low wind speeds, under 140 RPMs, only 3 coils are 'loaded' - 'hooked up' - to a 6v olt cart battery. We now have low resistance and are producing power when before we were producing none.

2. At wind speeds that would produce 140 - 'X'(300?) rpms, we load 3 more coils into a 12 volt battery.

3. At wind speeds that would produce 300-600 rpms, we load 3 more coils into 24 volt bank.

4. At wind speed that would produce 650+ rpms, we load the last 3 coils into a 48 volt bank, producing power when we normally would be furled.

Now we are collecting power in winds that would have resulted in no power at 30-139 RPMs and also at 650+ RPMs.

Is the above the best way to do this? I don't know - just thinking outloud. But by using a logic controller to 'turn on/off' coils according to wind speed would allow a more flexible design resulting in power production over a much larger range of wind speeds.

ghurd · « **Reply #21 on:** February 09, 2009, 10:28:55 AM »

How about calculating the power available when the unloaded blades are turning at 30RPM?

There is none.

cosmotopper · « **Reply #22 on:** February 13, 2009, 08:07:03 AM »

I'm new to this, so pardon my ignorance...

I was pricing components for a frictionless horizontal wind generator, when I found enviro energies. It certainly looked good. However, the consensus on this board seems to be that it's a scam. They also want a lot of money for them. My preference was to design a kit based on inexpensive components. On the other hand, if someone has refined the concept and made a commercially viable product, it seems like that would be worth considering.

Are there people out there claiming they 'invented' using magnetic opposition in a mechanism?
Since I don't read 'schematic' very well, can I confirm that enviro energies claim of no bearings/maintenance is false, since I gather from the comments that they are using bearings for vertical stabilization?
If it's a scam, wouldn't that be readily apparent shortly after taking delivery of your first unit?
Is storing the energy as hydrogen a near-term viable option?

Thanks in advance if anyone cares to comment.

BigBreaker · « **Reply #23 on:** February 13, 2009, 10:44:55 AM »

Air bearings are much better technology for floating a VAWT than magnets.

It is cheaper, lower tech, inherently self leveling / orienting. Industry actually uses air bearings as opposed to mag bearings which are really uncommon. Typically the air compressor is ganged directly to the working shaft of the device so that at speed the air bearing takes over for a bushing or a traditional bearing.

The radial orientation of the coils in the picture is bizarre. If you wanted to get "free" mag bearing you would want the coils to be axially oriented. The rotors would then want to center around the stator, which would be a vertical lifting. A radial configuration produces the rather less useful axial centering of coils and rotors.

News:

Author Topic: MVAWT: new mag-lev VAWT wind turbine (Read 16742 times)