Tested five blade sets today.

[Jerry]

I finaly got the last link. I've been waighting to test and compair Hugh Piggots 4 ft diameter wind generator with his designed wood carved blades and several other blade types.

I recorded MPH, amps, volts and cutin. I also made note of when the blades just started to spin.

This is a 12 volt test. I've desided to just show each machines #s seperatly.

Its easyer this way but the preformance diferance is clear.

I won't even report the #s for the 5th blade. It is the flat no twist, same cord root to tip talked about in a few posts below. Basicly it sucks. It never did reach cutin.

I'll just show mph and watts from about 5 mph to 10 mph for each blade.

Blades tested are.

Hugh Piggots 4 ft wood carved blade.

Thin plastic pipe blades (ZUB-WOOFERS).

Foam plastic blades.

Plastic "Jerry Blades".

                       Hugh Piggot 4 ft carved wood.

 5.9 mph    .7 watts

 7   mph  2.34 watts

 7.5 mph  3.87 watts

 9   mph  6.58 watts

9. 3  mph  7.29 watts
   
10.   mph  10.6 watts
    
10. 9 mph 11.68 watts
    
11.   mph  11.8 watts
    
    

                     Thin plastic pipe ZUB-WOOFERs

 6.2 mph   .35 watts

 6.9 mph  2.95 watts

 7.2 mph  3.55 watts

 8.0 mph  6.6  watts

 8.5 mph   10  watts

 9.0 mph 14.27 watts

 10  mph  18.5 watts

 10.5 mph 20.33 watts

 11 mph   23.98 watts.

                   Foam plastic pipe blades.

 5.5  mph     .12 watts

  6   mph     .71 watts

 6.9  mph     5.9 watts

 8.5  mph   11.85 watts

 8.7  mph   15.77 watts

 9.9  mph   21.68 watts

                 "Jerry Blades"  ABS plastic molded.

 4.4 mph    .23 watts

   5 mph   1.52 watts

 5.3 mph   2.93 watts

 5.7 mph   4.7  watts

 6.4 mph   9.0  watts

 7.5 mph    12  watts

   9 mph   17.8 watts

  10 mph  23.82 watts

10.3 mph  24.56 watts

 I'm very pleased with the #s from the foam pipe blades. Now I feel quite confident about building the larger versions. 6ft, 7.5ft, 8ft maybe even a 10 footer?

The molded "Jerry Blades" don't lend themselves to sizes above 5.5ft very well but the foam pipe blades do.

I can post pictures of all these blades if needed allthough I've allready done that in other posts.

Now I can make another post compairing some alt and blade combos.

All the above blades were tested on Hugh Piggots 4 ft diameter wind generator built from the instructions in his book. It was wired all stock star.

This wind tunnel is much fun.

                            Jerry                    

[Jerry]

When I'm done with all the tests on Hughs 4ft machine, I'll add the second no magnet rotor. With my more powerfull blade it should work quite well for a small unit.

I will Jerry rig it then also.

                           Jerry

[imsmooth]

what do the foam plastic pipe blades look like.  How are they made.  If they are that much more efficient I might try to give them a go on my turbine at 10.5' or 11'

Jonathan

[dsmith1427]

Thanks for sharing the data!  For the 5th blade, was there any chamber in the cross section or was it a flat, ceiling fan type blade?  At what angle did you set the blades?  Did you get close to cut-in speed?

Don

[Jerry]

Hi Don.

Here are some pictures of the flat blade.

                          Jerry

[Jerry]

OH sorry forgot the information.

David Moller (royalwdg) suggested these blade specs.

Cord 1.57" 10 degrees pitch.

From http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2009/8/5/22221/58835

Didn't even get close to cutin.

                      Jerry

[Dave B]

 Very interesting experiments Jerry, thank you for reporting your findings for your specific testing rig. It certainly shows why certain blades look like they do for different diameter machines.

 Out of fairness in regards to the previous postings, I believe the profile discussed was the Got. 222 which is not flat on it's face and is a very specific profile. Scaling this exact profile down to the diameter you are running may or may not work very well, it would be interesting indeed to see how it compared to the others at this minimal size.

 So far for a machine of this size you certainly have a fine running blade design. Interesting stuff, thanks.  Dave B.

[Dave B]

 After re-reading the previous posts again, Dave Moller is referring to the Got. 222 profile which is shown here in comparison to what was tested. This exact profile may or may not perform well if scaled down and run on this specific test rig but just for clarification I wanted to indicate that this is NOT the specifications or blade design suggested by Dave Moller.

 It would be interesting indeed if the exact 222 profile could be scaled down and then run on Jerry's test rig for a given diameter to match the others. Dave Moller may want to add to this when he gets a chance.  Dave B.

[dlenox]

Jerry,

I am a little bit confused.

I can understand testing multiple sets of blades in a controlled environment, but believe that what you accomplished is the testing of blades against a single design of your test turbine rotor/stator/air gap/blade diameter combination.

In one of your previous posts you stated that your test alternator was a dual rotor design, however in the picture above it seems to be a single rotor.

Don't get me wrong I am not trying to flame you or poo-poo your results, but not sure how representative this may be against various other rotor/stator/air gap configurations, not to mention other blade diameters and system voltages.

Dan Lenox

[gizmo]

I dont think the angle of attack it right here either. Are you setting the angle from the leading edge ( about half way around the nose ) to the tip of the trailing edge, or are you just using the flat face. On most blade profiles, the 0 angle of attack is a imaginary line between the most forward and most back point of the profile, and in most cases this line will travel through the inside of the profile. Its the angle where the blade makes no lift.

On my 222 blades there is about 3.2 degrees difference.

On your blades, it looks like you need to rotate them a further 10 degrees. They appear to have no angle of attack at all. I would rotate the blades a bit more and give them a try.

Also they are most definitely not a GOE222 profile, so I wouldn't expect the same results as a GOE222.

Glenn

[Jerry]

Hey Dan don'y worry about the flame. Around here I'm used to it.

Some how I stir things up from time to time just posting on what I've done.

I've built the wind tunnel to test wind generators, alts, pmas, Hornets, SW-403s,

Garbogens, Ameteks, tredmill motors, GE ECMs, Emerson EPMs, plastic blades, pipe blades, carved wood blades ECT. I have all of the above.

After I test something I report what I find.

In this test I've taken a very well known DIY wind generator and tryed several types of blades to see witch blades works best with it.

Some times I've taken one blade type and used it on several diferant gennys to campair how the gennys work with that same blade.

The gennies I've been testing were all designed to work with 4 ft diameter blades at about a TSR of 6. So far my "Jerry BLade" with a TSR of around 6 seems to be the best blade I've tested with so far. Both in startup and high wind speed.

From this testing I can see witch small genny works best.

There now aint that simple LOL.

About this flat blade thing. I just through this one together realy fast. I don't have the time to design and build this 222 or what ever it is properly.

If someone wants to build me one with all the correct airfoils I'll be happy to test it to.

All I need is a hub with 1" center hole and room for a 3" mounting hub. A hub of 1/4" metal would be nice.

                             Jerry

[pmurf1]

 What state are you in Jerry? I'd love to see what a set of TLG boast busters do, especially on a GE ecm 3/4 and 1 hp conversions. I know what my watts's up says into a good battery, and it's a lot lower than your lathe tests, but we all know those 400 watt generators on ebay will never do anywhere near close to that. If I ship you my TLG blades and a 3/4 ECM, you interested in paying for the return trip of the blades in exchange for a free motor? For some reason I've pulled a ton of 3/4's out of the scrap pile this summer, only 2 1hp's, and they don't look all that different size wise.

Pat

[Dave B]

Jerry,

  Great work and yes I understand that you report on what you test but this time I am surprised that you may not want to clear the air with Dave Moller. You admittedly were unable to test his suggested profile and specs. and ran a piece of molding instead.

  More than just inferring that his (Dave Moller's) sugggested profile and specs. did not work, even reach cut-in and basically sucks you even added a bit of salt to the wound by adding another post referrencing his name, website and yet another dig.

  I can understand being proud of your blades and testing and you have a right to be but I have to say that I am surprised that possibly pride in this instance is keeping you from admitting the mis-representation here of Dave Moller as well as the Got. 222 with respect to your testing.

  Thank you for the clarification that the #5 blade you did run was not the 222 profile. This should help those reading through this post understand a bit better that you ran 4 different blades and a 5th made up design that did not compare favorably to the others you tested. This 5th blade design and results are in no way associated with the Got.222 profile and Dave Moller's suggestions. Dave B.

   

[Jerry]

Hi Dave B.

You are absolutly correct in my reporting. I oppologize to Dave Moller.

My aproach was not well thought out or recearched. I'n my haste I did not take a close look at what a Got.222 profile was.

I feel bad about this and I'll be more carfull in the future. The Got.222 may be a very good profile and may be a very good blade.

I would very much like to test such a blade if one were available at the 4ft diameter.

Then I could show its preformance accuratly. Again Dave Moller I oppologize to you Sir.

I've learned a couple good lessons here. Thanks Dave B. for bringing this up and keeping me on trac.

                           Jerry

[Jerry]

Hi Pat.

Such timing. I've talked to Terry about his blades. I was concidering buying a set to test but thats not in my budget right now.

I've realy wanted to test a set of TLGs. You bet send me the blades and ECM and I'll do the test, report my findings and ship the TLGs back to you.

What TLG blade set do you have? Diameter ? I'll need the hub parts that match your ECM.

What is your system voltage? That is what voltage battery bank will your ECM be charging? This way I'll know what mods the ECM needs. The ECM can be configured for 12, 24 or 48 volts.

Great idea.

                       Jerry

[Jerry]

Hi Jonathan.

If you check my diary on the foam pipe blades there are picturse and a build discrition there.

I'm concerned about you building the foam pipe blades befor they've been tested at these larger diameters.

For now I suggest you build the well tested and normal wood carved blades.

I wouldn't want you yo build the foam pipe blades and either have bad preformance or a big failure.

I'd feel bad about that. Let me take the risk first.

If you still feel you must build the larger diameter foam pipe blades here are a couple ideas.

The 4 ft diameter blades I built for this test are from 6" diameter foam pipe.

I've purchased 8" diameter foam pipe at around $100 for a 12 ft pice.

The 8" diameter should work up to an 8ft diameter blade. Not shure about a 10.5ft to 11 ft diameter blade? You may have to go with 10" diameter foam pipe but I don't think that size is available?

Good luck on what ever blade you make.

                  Jerry

[dlenox]

Jerry,

Understand what you are saying and where you are coming from, you definately have put a bunch of effort into building a test environment and doing some preliminary testing.

Since it seems that you are selling blade sets that are made by you, I believe that you have to put more effort in performing proper setup and testing techiques.

Ojectivity is one thing that you need to strive for when testing 'competing' blades, and many times more effort needs to be performed to confirm proper profile, balancing and mounting angles as per the manufacturer specs.

Without objectivity the end result is that you would appear to simply be hawking your own product.

Dan Lenox

[Jerry]

OH Pat I'm sorry. I'm in Oergon.

                     Jerry

[Jerry]

Hi Dan.

Again Im very sorry and I opologize to Mr. Moller and I'd love to test his Got. 222 blade. Then report the test #s.

I havn't sold a blade set for a very long time. I've also suggested to the folks here ways to build a set of foam pipe blades that work fairly well for these small machines.

As far as the "Jerry Blades" I do sell yes. However mostly I do that to share a blade with fellow small wind generator builders that would like a good preforming blade that will match there small machines very well.

I don't have a active web site or an active sales campain to sell my blades.

Some one asked about a simple flat blade in a privius post. What came to my mind was a simple flat blade that DanB has  spoken of from a few years ago.

So I made the mistake in asuming that was the blade in question. I made a blunder.

I did not think of a more sufisticated blade being manufactured for sell by a builder seller.

I was simply thinking the question was asked about someone taking a pice of wood making it flat on one side an airfoil shape on the other side hang it at 10 degrees and calling it a blade. A DIY blade.

I was not taking a stab at a comercial blade builder. I just did not take a close look at the question and its deatails. I shot from the hip in my responce and apparently I've shot myself in the foot.

I've ment no harm to any one.  I can see now my responce on the flat blade question  should have been. I don't know I've never had or flown one. Hindsight is a great thing, wish I had it.

Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

                        Jerry

[imsmooth]

Thanks Jerry.  I already have a nice set of carved/epoxy coated blades for my 10.5' (maybe 10.75') rotor.  I'm in no rush, so I'll look at your diary and wait for you to post some results.

[divemaster1963]

Hey Jerry

I made a set of 72 in 3 blade from yellow pine decking boards. they turned out great. with the radius edge made for easy carving. plus was able to carve the face out to improve performance. tool only 1 hour to make the set.

john

[Jerry]

Hey Dave B.

I've got say, the profile of the blade in the bottom picture is  awsome.

If thats the Got.222 it looks like a great blade.

Thanks for brining it to my attension.

                      Jerry

[pmurf1]

 Jerry, email me you address to mine at pmurf1@yahoo.com and we'll go from there. My blade set isn't perfect, the tips hit my pole during a really fast monsoon, but I talked to TLG and they said just work them back into shape with a hammer and they'll be ok. I did and they spin and start just fine, a slight wobble at higher speeds, but I think I got them close enough. They already have a 1/2" hub so they slip right onto the ecms. I run mine at 12v jerry rigged. I'd be curious about output in other voltages too. I also have a cyclone 2 blade hub you could test, you'd just have to switch the blades out.

[Royalwdg]

Jerry,  Thank you for acknowledging the profile differences. I've spent the weekend digging holes and building concrete formes for my tower and have not seen all that has transpired. Thanks to Dave B for keeping watch on accuracy. We are rather proud of the performance we get from our blades which are the GE222 profile. Like Dan has said, many times, there are many different profiles and characteristics to blades and designers have to know what they want out of their blades and how they are going to get it. The last profile that you tested looks more like the Clark Y.  The lift and drag characteristics do match your test results. I am a bit of a data nut and would love to have a test setup like yours to get some numbers. One more thing. Scaling down is not always accurate when it comes to fluid flow. Air is a fluid. Air has density and weight. It's effect on a small version of a shape may not be the same as that shape in a larger scale. Keep up the testing. We all need Data.   Dave Moller

[bob g]

Dave:

if you don't mind my asking, what is the origin of the 222 profile?

we developed a very similar profile back in the summer of '02 and built

a test set, but never flew them.

the profile was worked out using the nasa windtunnel simulator that was

and may still be online

we posted pics of the blades on the old forum, one red, one white and one blue.

wood core, fiberglass cast process that took way to much effort to make.

probably why we never got around to testing them, my partner and i were so burned

out after finishing the last blade, we just put em in a corner.

i really like the camber, and depending one which theory of lift you ascribe to

the profile proves out newtons theory in my opinion, and a smoke trail across the profile clearly illustrates the high pressure region being behind and slightly below the trailing edge, makeing the high pressure region just ahead and above the top surface,,, that profile should fly like a bat outa heck!

maybe its time to start back in and see where you guys have been going?

bob g

[Royalwdg]

Hey Bob g, From what I've learned from Terry Bryant, current owner of Wincharger.Com, the 222profile was developed in the 1930s by wincharger and US military with some Boeing influence because Wincharger built some machines for the military. Geottengen is a small town in Germany where Betts apparently did his testing to come up with the Betts Curve which tells us what is considered "good performance" from a wind generator.Terry Bryant is probably the most knowledgable person on Winchargers today. Anyone can contact him through his web-site.     Dave Moller

[bob g]

i am going to ask what is probably a dumb question

but has anyone got a set of these flying that are in the 12ft diameter range?

what kind of power output are they capable of at various windspeeds?

bob g

[gizmo]

10 foot, 2500w peak to date.

http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/FORUM1/forum_posts.asp?TID=1860&PN=2

These are the PVC extraction GEO222 available in Australia, in the USA you cant go past Royal Fabrications timber version, freight is a bit high from down under.

Glenn

[bob g]

Glenn:

can you tell me approx what windspeed you got 2500watts at?

if its at 28mph, i am impressed, if on the other hand a 90mph gust??? well??

maybe not so impressed

bob g

[gizmo]

Its in the posting. 55kph, about 34mph.

Glenn

[bob g]

sorry i missed that detail in the posting

ok, 34 mph to get 2500 watts

so if my math is right , 17mph should produce ~312 watts?

does that sound about right?

bob g