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1 coil, 1 magnet, 1 AC wave | 16 comments (16 topical)
Re: 1 coil, 1 magnet, 1 AC wave (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by finnsawyer on Sat Oct 02, 2004 at 10:24:38 AM MST

Troy, I hate to be a spoilsport but that is not a sine wave.  A sine wave contains energy at only one frequency.  If you were to measure the spectrum of that transient waveform you would find that it contains energy at a range of frequencies.  In any case, nice work.  I'm glad to see some folks are using o'scopes to good effect.  What do you suppose would happen if the magnet was large compared to the coil?

How about changing the sweep speed to show two of the waves?
GeoM



Re: 1 coil, 1 magnet, 1 AC wave (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by troy on Sat Oct 02, 2004 at 10:53:04 AM MST

Dear Finsawyer,

Technically, you may be correct there.  Would you be satisfied if we described the wave form as sinusoidal, since all of the alternators we build fail to produce true faultless definitional sine waves to some degree or another.

But again, the purpose of the post was to refute the supposition that you would only get one hump, no electron flow in the other direction.  This clealy has an up (+) and a down (-).  In that limited sense, I think it looks pretty sine wavy to me.

Best regards,

troy

[ Parent ]



Re: 1 coil, 1 magnet, 1 AC wave (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by finnsawyer on Sat Oct 02, 2004 at 11:19:16 AM MST

Sinusoidal is probably the best term to use.  As you're probably aware, if you move a small coil over the pole of a large magnet you will get a positive and negative pulse separated in time.  I thought this would be useful to show in order to demonstrate the importance of getting the proper size relationship between the coil and magnet in an alternator design.  The deviation from a pure sine wave in the output can give rise to radio interference.  That's probably of not much consequence for the type of projects considered here, but some people might be interested in it.  I do like what you've done and it may clarify matters for many.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: 1 coil, 1 magnet, 1 AC wave (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by troy on Sat Oct 02, 2004 at 12:07:06 PM MST

Dear Finsawyer,

Instructive and thoughtful observations are always appreciated whether they "agree" or "disagree".  Those two terms are often not helpful anyway, as it's all just a pursuit to more and better knowledge.

best regards

troy

[ Parent ]



Re: 1 coil, 1 magnet, 1 AC wave (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by troy on Sat Oct 02, 2004 at 04:02:37 PM MST

This is a separate experiment that I did some time ago, that answers to some extent what happens when you vary the size of the hole in relationship to the size of the magnet.

In the first test, I compared two coils, one very small, and one medium (A and B respectively).  The traces for those two mini coils are shown in the second photo.  Coil A produced a big dead spot in the middle of the peak of the sine wave due to the magnet being over both legs at the same time and canceling the voltage.  Coil B wasn't so bad, but still a noticable dip.





Now, when I compared coils B and C, (medium and large, respectively) we see more intersting results.  Only the biggest coil has a nice full peak because there's very little overlap with the magnet covering both legs at the same time.  It's tempting to think that we should make great big holes in our coils.

That's not really true though, because a real coil has many turns, not just two.  So while part of two legs may be covered by the magnet, the additional copper you can pack in there still gives you more volts and amps out compared to the great big hole coil.  Up to a point anyway. Everything involves some compromise. So I wind coils with holes a little smaller than the magnet and cross my fingers.





Have a lovely day.

troy

[ Parent ]



Re: 1 coil, 1 magnet, 1 AC wave (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by JW on Sun Oct 03, 2004 at 08:02:24 AM MST

Nice write-up Troy,

 Honestly, I see nothing wrong with what your saying here. But the phrase "not limited too" comes to mind. I have alot of practical experience with "dc waveforms" and I feel due to the .707-141 conversions I think ac waveforms are sometimes abit more tricky. Perhaps it was un-wise for me you say that you are wrong. Just attempt to envision how my mind interpeates an 'ac' waveform. I believe that the dc waveform is the building block of a true sinewave this includes both positive and negative amplitude.(on the respective positions of the zero-line). Hey, troy Id like to compliment you on your co-gen system that your building in you basement, a very intreging project indeed.

JW  

[ Parent ]



Re: 1 coil, 1 magnet, 1 AC wave (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by finnsawyer on Mon Oct 04, 2004 at 10:44:11 AM MST

I suppose we could consider a sine wave as the sum of two dc pulse trains.  The problem is to use them in any kind of circuit analysis leads right back to the mathematical properties of sine waves as entities in their own right.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


1 coil, 1 magnet, 1 AC wave | 16 comments (16 topical)

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