Go to Otherpower.com Home Page Go to Forcefield Shopping Cart Go to Wondermagnet.com Home Page
Front Page - [Homebrewed Electricity-- (wind) (solar) (hydro) (steam) (controls) (storage) (mechanical)] - Classifieds - Site News
Everything - Newbies - [Remote Living-- (housing) (heat) (light) (water)] - Rants & Opinion - Diaries - Our Products
oil and energy in the short run | 19 comments (19 topical, editorial)
Re: oil and energy in the short run (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by stop4stuff on Thu Dec 2nd, 2004 at 02:45:31 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.stop4stuff.com

interesting stuff...

google came up with a few answers about china's fuel demands..
this winter will be cold in Bejing for many ppl due to a shortfall in coal production... petrochemical usage is set to increase substantially (maybe as a result???)

see;
http://www.peakoil.com

The future of oil products as we know it is limited...
peak oil is set to happen soon...
2005, 2007, 2010...
odds neone???
paul

p.s. what will happen to plastics production when 'the-oil-runs-out'?



Re: oil and energy in the short run (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by TomW on Thu Dec 2nd, 2004 at 04:07:23 PM MST
(User Info)

Paul;


p.s. what will happen to plastics production when 'the-oil-runs-out'?

Good point. You can also toss in drugs that are based on oil.

It just seems that burning up oil to get around is a bit like burning your furniture to keep warm because your too lazy to cut wood. Many things can be used for motive power but oil is so useful for other things it should not be consumed for heat and transportation.

Just the view from here.

T

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain
[ Parent ]



Re: oil and energy in the short run (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by JW on Sat Dec 4th, 2004 at 10:24:00 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi TomW,

 Uknow I agree with you on many points. Thinking about the Hydrogen economy, I often wonder if the trend that which we consume oil currently, will be any example of our stratigy with water in the same respect. What I mean is, electrolisis with pure water it probably best, since salt water will emit tons of clorine on the Oxy side. So theres another energy sink besides compression of gas and liquifaction(supercooling), as de-salination energy needs would accumulate cumulaive on the energy balence thats needed to produce usable hydrogen, regardless of the energy sources used to produce it. Nevertheless the balence is out of wack in this regard, since hydrogen is only an energy carrier and it takes more energy to produce a given quantity, then is released at an end use point, such as a fuel cell. Considering generally fuel cells are only 60% efficient, then 40% of the original hydrogen used is lost to heat, as in-efficiency. Even though water is in fact recovered as a result of the fuel cell process, 40% of the original Hydrogen consumed from electrolisis is lost thru heat of just the fuelcell process. This means water is infact being consumed irreversably if thru only the fuelcell, let alone liquifaction losses and distribution losses, and end use losses.

 By the way,   I have heard any plastic that can be made from oil can be made fron corn. Often bio-mass can replace the complex organic materials that oil produces for us now. But conservation is alway censible. Thinking about this, it remindes me that sponges and other rare marine oganisms living in the Worlds Oceans, exist because of a delicate balence of water volume, thermodynamically and salination wise this is an important nursery of life and potental cancer curing drugs extracts, that could be derived from sea life. Let alone preventing drought in protected rain forest areas. We can live without oil, but can we live without water? Just an opinion, directed at generallity.

JW

[ Parent ]



Re: oil and energy in the short run (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by finnsawyer on Wed Dec 8th, 2004 at 09:41:04 AM MST
(User Info)

You're a little confused here.  The hydrogen itself is not lost.  A fraction of the energy used to make the pure hydrogen is (the 40%).

Except for certain regions of the world, I don't think salt water will be needed.  An acre-inch of water is equal to 28,359 gallons of water.  Where I live we get 250 inces of snow (25 inches water equivalent) per year plus rain.  Lets say 30 inches of rain equivalent per year.  So, that's 850,770 gallons of water per acre.  I own 60 acres, so I'm entitled to process up to 51 million gallons of water per year into hydrogen.  The problem, of course, is that most of the water runs off.  And, since the water is returned back to the environment when the hydrogen is burned, it becomes a closed cycle.  The hydrogen used in California, for instance, may fall as snow in the mountains and be used again by Californians.
GeoM
[ Parent ]



Re: oil and energy in the short run (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by rotornuts on Sat Dec 4th, 2004 at 10:37:42 PM MST
(User Info)

Hey Tom, you just coined my new favorite quote.

[ Parent ]


Re: oil and energy in the short run (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by JW on Sat Dec 4th, 2004 at 11:36:34 PM MST
(User Info)

Just thinking about using hydrogen as fuel. It seems to me Fusion reactors make much more energy from a given quantity of hydrogen than any fuelcell ever will. Let alone the millions of fuelcells being proposed for such use. It seems we have abandon support for Fusion reactors that wont produce nuclear waste. Alot of work has been put into the science of fusing two hydrogen atoms into a helium atom. Once these fusion reactors are put on-line, they will make a good long term solution for energy for future generations. Then it goes back to electric cars. But better battery technology is still needed.

JW

[ Parent ]



Re: oil and energy in the short run (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by skravlinge on Fri Dec 3rd, 2004 at 05:30:46 AM MST
(User Info)

World changes, and then its time for  people to find new ways. It were days people  had  worries of  the traffic in London could be limited due to too much horseshit, later they found you could spreed the shit burning fuel instead.
Next step is to  drive around without  pollution like today. See something good in the development, and dont just worry. We will drive in the postoil world,  as we are not using  knives of stone anymore, and we can use plastic made of  for example corm.
-- Always find the typos after posting!
[ Parent ]


Re: oil and energy in the short run (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by finnsawyer on Fri Dec 3rd, 2004 at 10:09:27 AM MST
(User Info)

Sure adjustments will be made, but what agony will the world have to go through first?  What will happen if enough Chinese freeze this winter?  Will China pull an "Imperial Japan" and go after the raw materials it needs?  During World War Two Germany was after "Lebens Raum" and Japan after raw materials.  The U. S. can weather any energy crisis using it's own resources, such as coal, but maybe others can't.  And some of those "others" can potentially be very dangerous to our health.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: oil and energy in the short run (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by skravlinge on Sat Dec 4th, 2004 at 02:46:19 AM MST
(User Info)

Prediction thats a difficult task, especally about the future. We had crises before, history is full of them, so we will likely meet crisis again. Conflict of resources has been  before, and it were the countries  which were quite rich, which was  more in the game, its needs resources and economy  comparing to others to do that especially  GB did in the 19th  year hundred. I remember the 50-ies the cold war, a time you found it not unrealistic you will not see the next day. It was nuclear threat we were busy with.  Today that seems to be forgotten, but I think the nuclear  threat is still real as it is  in hands of more states, and maybe  organizations not  organizied as a state.
The countries now demanding more energy,  use a fraction (pro head)of what we in  North America and Europe do. It will not be easy to tell them they can not live as we do. Myself think economic development in countries like China  is not a threat, its  promising. Do you think China can  develop  in the figures they do today without changing the political system towards democracy.  Dictatorship and  wellfare dont stick to eachother for long time.  The proof is : Germany was splittet , the outcome was one rich and one poor, the same whith Korea and even China. Its still a billion people in China lives much poorer than in Hong-Kong and Taiwan. In North Korea is no food.  Two countries having bacic the same history and culture  then one getting democracy and the other not . Democratic states goes sometimes to war, but when saw you two democratic states going to make war  on  eachother. In case of pollution, its the western countries stands for the major part, we may be going slowly to do something about it, and nobody knows, we maybe are going to get the knowhow from Asia, things move faster then it is a demand for it, energy or  system to reduce emissions.

Spellchecker seems out of order!
-- Always find the typos after posting!
[ Parent ]



Re: oil and energy in the short run (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by finnsawyer on Sun Dec 5th, 2004 at 09:50:56 AM MST
(User Info)

Whether China is moving to democracy is debatable.  That may be wishful thinking.  What is not, is that their own oil production is falling.  Also, look at the problems they have producing coal.  Over 160 miners died in a coal mine explosion and they were 5 MILES from the mine entrance.  The riches of Siberia must look real attractive to the Chinese, not to mention Southeast Asia.  History is replete with nations doing things and starting wars that others were convinced they'd never do.  You speak of rich nations competing for resources.  Well, before world war two Japan was rich in technology and poor in resources, and that's exactly where China's heading.  The parallels are striking.  I could see the Chinese grabbing Taiwan and, if they get away with that then going after Siberia.  The whole thing would depend on whether they think their nuclear deterrent is credible.  Do we write off the West Coast to stop them?  Would the Russians do anything or just give in?
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: oil and energy in the short run (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by skravlinge on Mon Dec 6th, 2004 at 01:02:40 PM MST
(User Info)

Japan face the same today, they have rich technology but not very much resources. The Japan of today is a democracy, In  the 40th ist was the opposite, so they  solve their problem today with trade. Moderen nations get their welth from  trading (domestic or export/import), and its far better  and less risky than war. I hope you are wrong regarding China. The Russians will sell whatever China want. Regarding Taiwan its  up to the rest of the world to try to avoid any threat against Taiwan. I think IF Mainland China succed in transform to a democracy,  Taiwan maybe would like to join a winning team. Its still a billion in China who lives  a preindustrial life. So it will take time before we see a modern China, and I think thats not possible without democracy.
-- Always find the typos after posting!
[ Parent ]


Re: oil and energy in the short run (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by finnsawyer on Wed Dec 8th, 2004 at 08:57:52 AM MST
(User Info)

Well, any thing can happen.  Before World War Two the U. S. put an embargo on the export of scrap metals to Japan, which helped spark the war.  Recently the Chinese were importing so much scrap steel from the U. S. that there was some talk of limiting it due to the run up in prices and the effect on local steel producers.  When markets are denied to nations they do desperate things.

A country doesn't have to be democratic to be technologically advanced.  Take a hard look at Germany before WW2.  They had potential developements in place that would have greatly altered the outcome of the war.  Basically, Hilter wasn't interested until it was too late.  Hilter started the war and he lost it too, due to his attitudes.  He was also looking for raw materials, namely oil.
GeoM
[ Parent ]



Re: oil and energy in the short run (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by skravlinge on Sat Dec 11th, 2004 at 07:25:49 AM MST
(User Info)

I did not say it was impossible to have a modern techology in a non-democratic state, I said it will not last. History sometimes looks like its repet itself, but a closer look show history is a process in ONE direction. Do not trust much in learning of the future from past. A lot of generals have got into the war after planning like the last, this have a cost.
-- Always find the typos after posting!
[ Parent ]


oil and energy in the short run | 19 comments (19 topical, 0 editorial)

Menu
· create account
· How to use the board
· FAQs
· search the board
· Google search the board
· Old Otherpower Board

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Powered by Scoop
You must be a registered user to post here. It's easy and free, and the link is on the upper right side of your page.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Postings are owned by the poster, but may be deleted or moved at the ADMIN's sole discretion. The Rest © 2003 Forcefield.
You can Email the board ADMIN here. PLEASE include the username you signed up with!