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Magnet rotor dia | 12 comments (12 topical, editorial)
Re: Magnet rotor dia (4.00 / 1) (#1)
by Flux on Wed Sep 22nd, 2004 at 10:14:44 AM MST
(User Info)

If you increase the rotors from 12 to 13" you could increase the output. If you are using Hugh's plans this may not be an advantage unless you are prepared to increase the prop diameter. The whole thing is chosen carefully and if you make significant increases in alternator output you will most likely stall the blades.

I would suggest that if you keep the 8 ft prop you would be better off mounting the magnets at 12" on your discs.  If you go for the larger diameter you ought to consider a 9 or even 10 ft prop to keep things matched.

Flux



Re: Magnet rotor dia (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Wed Sep 22nd, 2004 at 10:26:01 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

At some point... with a given size magnet and a given number of them - I think increasing diameter would hurt you - the coils would have to be larger...  you'd have lots of 'dead' copper in there only  serving to add resistance.  At some point, that added resistance will outweigh the gains from the increased velocity of the magnets - the output from a coil would have higher voltage peaks but spend more time down near 0.  My guess, is with the 1" x 2" magnets... there may not be much advantage (it might actually hurt) to increasing the diameter over 12" for 12 magnets.

I could be wrong...  this is just kind of my guess.  I think ideally - to make best use of the magnets and the wire, we should probably have about half the rotor filled with magnets.  And I believe - that filling perhaps 3/4 of the rotor with magnets will cost us very little.  But I've not tested all this... just speculating.  If it were me, I'd not go with 13" rotors unless you also went with larger magnets and larger coils.

Im dying to test the newest wind turbines we've made.  They basicly have the same thing - 12 of these magnets on each rotor with a 3 phase stator, the rotors are 12" in diameter.  The power curve I seem to get when testing on my truck suggests that a 10' prop is quite reasonable, so long as the line is not too resistive.  The power curve seems like it would stall an 8' prop kind of badly.

[ Parent ]



Re: Magnet rotor dia (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by daleh007 on Wed Sep 22nd, 2004 at 02:54:51 PM MST
(User Info)

More clarification please.
The 13" dia. automotive disk brake rotors were not an effort to increase output they are just available and I was thinking maybe close enough to the 12" design target. After all, this is only moving the magnets & coils in the stator out an additional 1/2". The available area or width on the brake rotor to mount the magnets is 2" which matches the magnet size too. I don't think I would want to reduce the effective magnet placement dia. to 12" as this would leave 1/2" on each magnet hanging in air or at least not in contact with the rotor metal.

Now some of my questions. Why would I get an increased output going from 12" to 13"? Is this due to the increased magnet velocity? It was stated that the coils would have to be bigger using a larger dia. and that I'd have lots of "dead" copper adding resistance. Is this due to the magnets being moved out which effectively changes their spacing which would require the coils be changed in width to match the magnet spacing?

And finally, this ties into another posting of mine regarding the leading and trailing edges of adjacently placed magnets as they pass over a single coil. Seems like if you have 12 magnets and 10 coils aligned over the same dia. this isn't going to happen regardless of the dia.

Daleh

[ Parent ]



Re: Magnet rotor dia (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Flux on Thu Sep 23rd, 2004 at 01:28:26 AM MST
(User Info)

Daleh
I am not surprised you are confused. It is not easy to predict any change to a winding as so many factors come into play.

If you don't want to increase the output, just use the same coils and either mount the magnets at 12" and keep the coils the same or mount the magnets at 13" and move the coils out to the new radius. You may have to increase the stator moulding diameter to bring the fixing points clear of the discs.

Regarding the coil centres and magnet spacing, for a single turn coil you can put the turn in exactly the right place. You can add more turns on top of each other and still keep them in the right place, but to use more of the available you are forced to put turns side by side, now you can no longer have the ideal condition for maximum voltage from all the turns and those turns that are longer or shorter than the pole pitch will have less voltage induced in them.  It may seem logical to keep the centre of the coil sides on the pole pitch, but in practice it is better to keep the outsides on the pole pitch and then the centres of the coils come inside the ideal. the reason is that long turns have a higher proportion of inactive copper at the inside and outside and give an increase in resistance that out weighs any advantage from the gain in voltage.

With single phase windings the spacing is such that you normally end up with the centre of the coil legs on the pole pitch, but it would possibly be better to leave alternate coils out and wind the remainder with a shorter pitch.

With 3 or 5 phase i.e 9 or 10 coils for 12 magnets you end up with a compromise that is not perfect from the voltage consideration alone, but will give more output power as the winding resistance is less.  Voltage alone is not the thing to aim for, that is why it is difficult to predict what will happen if you change something on a winding.

Hope this helps
Flux

[ Parent ]



Magnet rotor dia | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 editorial)

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