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3-phase vs. single-phase alternator | 23 comments (23 topical, editorial)
Re: 3-phase vs. single-phase alternator (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by finnsawyer on Fri Dec 14th, 2007 at 09:17:08 AM MST
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Lumpy dc is no problem for lead-acid batteries.  If you are going to do this kind of comparison be honest.  Compare the waveforms and outputs for a three phase and single phase alternator having the same number of magnets and identical coils.  Say a 12 magnet 9 coil three phase versus a 12 magnet 12 coil single phase.  If the single phase puts out sufficiently more voltage it could give better performance.  That is, more output power.  While I haven't concerned myself with the standard single phase design, I have provided projections for my proposed design that show a considerable increase in output power using the same number of identical magnets and identical but 50% more, by number, coils.  As far as the times when the wires are not conducting current, that's irrelevant.  What's important is the average current flowing through the wires and the resulting heating or heat loss.  The only issue that I find of some consequence is the vibration issue and I'm not so sure about that either.  People may simply be interpreting sound from the coils due to the pulsed nature of the current as bad vibration, when it is not.  Of course, you always have the issue of the quality of the construction.  I really would not want to come to universal conclusions based of home brew experiences.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: 3-phase vs. single-phase alternator (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by finnsawyer on Sat Dec 15th, 2007 at 08:59:18 AM MST
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I got to thinking about this lumpy nature of single phase.  It seems that some people are working hard to take 3 phase dc and make it lumpy using mppt, which appears to be based on the Buck converter which uses inductors.  Why not take rectified single phase and do the same to it without using inductors.  The idea would be to design the alternator to match the wind turbine's output at the maximum wind speed.  For lower wind speeds you control the part of the half wave cycle for which conductance can occur using solid state circuitry.  This in turn would require knowing the RPMs of the alternator.  But that's related to the frequency of the rectified dc pulses.  It seems like that should be easier to do and cheaper than the mppt approach.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: 3-phase vs. single-phase alternator (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by joestue on Sat Dec 15th, 2007 at 05:12:45 PM MST
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In any case 3 phase/dc makes better use of copper in the transmission line, however, if the conversion of ac into dc occures at the alternator, then 3 phase may only make better use of the magnetic "space" or "area".

Since the coils are not overlapped nor magnetically linked, as they are in a car alternator, the difference between 1 and 3 phase's specific efficiency is minimal, if not more dependent upon the specific variations, not topology.

MPPT as far as i know needs some "intelligence", whether it be an analog circuit, or a 50 cent 8 bit micro controller.

If you are suggesting using silicon controlled rectifiers (SCRs) to control the output voltage, then the alternator will need to be rated significantly higher.
Reason is, I^2R losses are increased during voltage reduction.
At the cut in speed, the conduction angle will be the highest,
As the wind increases, the conduction angle must decrease, to avoid a stall.
What happens next depends on the alternator's resistance, and the blade's output power curve.

[ Parent ]



Re: 3-phase vs. single-phase alternator (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by finnsawyer on Sun Dec 16th, 2007 at 08:53:40 AM MST
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Three transmission wires are better than two?  I don't agree with that.  Place the wind turbine 500 feet from the diodes and batteries and see what happens.  Or use transformers to step up the voltage at the turbine and then down at the batteries.  Check the bottom line.  Every situation should be approached on its own merits.  Beware of all encompassing statements.

I don't know that I'd use SCRs.  I'd probably try an NPN junction power transistor with its emitter terminal in series with the positive terminal of the battery.  The base voltage would be held down until that part of the pulse cycle was reached for conduction to occur.  The transistor would either be cut-off where essentially no emitter current flows or hard on where the collector to emitter voltage is small, around 0.3 volts.  With 10 amps through the transistor when on the power dissipated in the transistor would be 3 watts or less.  Obviously, other circuitry is needed to track the turbine's power curve and determine the on time.  That's where the challenge is, but such circuitry need not consume much power either.
GeoM
[ Parent ]



Re: 3-phase vs. single-phase alternator (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by joestue on Sun Dec 16th, 2007 at 04:21:58 PM MST
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I didn't say 3 lines were better than two, I meant to say 3 phase or dc is better than single phase, rectified or not.
Of course, if you rectify single phase and filter it, then transmission losses will be equal to any other dc source, and 2 wires w/i dc will have equal losses to 3 wires carrying 3 phase ac.

If you can find me anything other than a mosfet that will drop less than .8 volt, please, I'm all ears. (btw this voltage don't matter too much, since you got rid of the diode(s))

If I understand you correctly, then naturally commutated scr rectification is still more eff if it is three phase, at the turbine, on the tower.
all it takes is 3 diodes, 3 scrs, 3 capacitors, and 3 variable resistors.

what you want is on page 13 of this pdf:
http://www2.ing.puc.cl/power/paperspdf/dixon/21.pdf

and there is a bunch more here:
http://www2.ing.puc.cl/power/publications/electronics.htm

I hope that is of some help.
post a schematic please.

[ Parent ]



Re: 3-phase vs. single-phase alternator (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by finnsawyer on Mon Dec 17th, 2007 at 08:53:43 AM MST
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I don't know how long you have been frequenting this site and if you are aware of my proposed (single phase) alternator design.  You can find it here:

     http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/4/21/16237/9933

The arguments that I give show that for the same investment in magnets you can get considerably more power out.  That is where "the rubber hits the road" as I see it.

The junction transistors that I have known and loved all had a saturation (hard on) value of Vce in the 0.3 volt range.  This is true whether they were PNP or NPN.

To a certain extent an argument of SCRs versus Transistors is pointless.  You still need to control the on or conducting time and relate that to the power output characteristics of the wind turbine so as not to drive it into stall at any point along the power curve.  Both the single phase and 3 phase alternator output current have the basic frequency information built in due to the ripple.  You can pick that off by bleeding some current through a 100 - 500 microfarad blocking capacitor to a suitable resistor.  From there you can process the information any way you see fit.  You might need to add a resistor in series with the battery, although with a transistor in the off state in series with the battery you might not need to to get the basic information.

By the way, if the SCRs would work as you describe, why are people even bothering with the bulky and expensive buck converters?  

GeoM
[ Parent ]



Re: 3-phase vs. single-phase alternator (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by joestue on Mon Dec 17th, 2007 at 08:42:35 PM MST
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I'm sorry, I had no idea that single phase could extract much more power out of a certain investment of magnets.

The reason SCRs are not used is due to increased copper losses as the conduction angle decreases.
If Scrs are used to reduce the voltage by 50% and 66%, but the average rectified current into the battery remains the same, then I^2R losses in the coil are going double, triple, respectivly.

Buck regulators maintain a full 120 degrees of conduction in a 3 phase rectifier.
In addition to this, if a buck regulator is used on a single phase unfiltered rectifier, than the conduction angle can be increased further, up to say about 150/160 degrees, at a dc output of 1/4 of the ac peak voltage. (on a sinewave machine)
PMA's oftem produce trapezoidal waveforms, and that won't be a significant difference.


[ Parent ]



Re: 3-phase vs. single-phase alternator (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by finnsawyer on Tue Dec 18th, 2007 at 08:43:25 AM MST
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There is no reason why one couldn't amplify that picked off ac ripple to a square wave.  That would give the full 360 degrees to play around with.  If I had sufficient motivation (someone paying me or urgent need) to work on such a design I would try the solid state - capacitance approach first before messing with inductors.  While I have a general idea how I would approach it, I do realize one may encounter unanticipated issues.  It might also turn out that the best design might require the use of linear amplifiers and both negative and positive power supplies.  One needs to determine the conduction or on time accurately.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


3-phase vs. single-phase alternator | 23 comments (23 topical, 0 editorial)

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