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A Curiosity | 26 comments (26 topical)

Re: A Curiosity (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by finnsawyer on Fri Dec 09, 2005 at 09:13:12 AM MST

I'm not saying they're trying to con anybody. I'm just saying their marketing strategy creates inherent dangers. I wouldn't want one of these anywhere near my house. At some point one of these is going to fail. It's in the nature of the beast. Then one or more of the airfoils will be flying through the air at 50 to 60 miles an hour. How far could one of those penetrate in a house or automobile? The fact that they recommend putting these things on roofs indicates that they don't understand potential failure modes. There are places where these could be put, away from people, where people don't go during high winds. There the units could prove themselves. As an example, west of here along M-26 there is a small substation under a transmission line in an unpopulated area. Put some units a mile or so off the road on one of the ridges in the area. As far as being conned, it's beginning to look like the bureaucrats are starting to con themselves. The chairman of the Michigan Public Service Commission has "come out in favor of any energy source that reduces the state's demand for electricity produced at plants using fossil fuels", apparently no matter what the cost. I suggest he start by investigating the possibility of a hydro plant on the Salmon Trout River at Redridge, Michigan (just in case this gets called to his attention).
GeoM
[ Parent ]

Re: A Curiosity (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by CG on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 03:28:56 AM MST

Many of the users of this site install wind turbines on their property, some of those turbines fail, are you saying they shouldn't do this? If you are we might just a well pack up working with wind energy, we can't all station our turbines miles away from civilisation for safety sake. I'm afraid you will have to get used to the idea of having this potential danger near you, micro generation is beginning to take off; here in the UK we have Windsave, Swift, and Eurowind are all proposing the siting of wind turbines on houses. I personnally don't like the idea of attaching a wind turbine to my house, but as I understand it your objection is not only to this but also having it sited in an urban area.

I do agree with you on the dangers of taking up a contract with Mckenzie Bay. This company, with its Windstor project, is in effect becoming a small utility company. This is an business they probably know very little about. Customers will have to sign a 20 year contract with them, and I doubt if Mckenzie Bay will not have sold out to a large utility company before then. What happens if the new owners are not so keen on this type of energy supply? But at least Mckenzie Bay is dealing with professional people in companies who should be able to read the small print. The Windsave and Swift turbines are being sold to house owners, and those house owners are probably being given grossly over optimistic performance figures for the returns on their investment in wind power.

[ Parent ]

Re: A Curiosity (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by finnsawyer on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 09:06:07 AM MST

No, I'm not saying the users of this site should quit using wind power. But it is well known that windmills fail. Just look at some of the pictures that have appeared here. If you put a wind mill up on your own property you are putting your own family somewhat at risk. That is a risk you are free to take (in my opinion). A blade from a horizontal mill will probably not go too far. If my neighbor, a thousand feet across the field, were to put up a horizontal mill, I would not be too concerned. On the other hand, if something from the mill hurt a member of my family, he better have good insurance. These windstor mills are a different kind of animal. They are an "egg-beater" design. The blades are very thin and are subjected to varying forces as they rotate. Failure due to metal fatigue can not be ruled out. Putting one of these by a school or where people tend to congregate makes no sense.

It is possible to mitigate the failure impact of a horizontal type mill by fastening the blade tips to a ring and/or putting a shroud around the blade. This might also result in less noise. For a take on this check out the new Virginia class of submarines. Would you be willing to invest in a new type of wind turbine that doesn't have these noise and failure problems?
GeoM
[ Parent ]

Re: A Curiosity (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by rotornuts on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 12:19:28 PM MST

I think the critical component to operating a machine in an urban environment is dilligence in the maintenance and inspection department. There is no reason to fear safety if regular inspection is involved. I think by now the creators of eggbeater darrieus machine are savy to the blade fatigue issue.

I would like to see a close up of the blade to lower support junction on the design in the pictures. It seems to me that by not binding the end of the blade it may allow the blade to flex more freely and lower the fatigue stresses somewhat.

Mike

[ Parent ]

Re: A Curiosity (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by finnsawyer on Sun Dec 11, 2005 at 09:28:18 AM MST

Are they going to take the blades down periodically and xray them? If you've been following the threads of this posting, you are aware that no one has seen one of these things in operation at all. They have not been proven, at least to the public. Metal fatigue is always going to be an issue, anyway. All I can do is voice my concerns. Other than that time will tell. It is not acceptable that even one child should die because one of these windmills was built by a school!
GeoM
[ Parent ]

Re: A Curiosity (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by rotornuts on Sun Dec 11, 2005 at 11:46:29 PM MST

Who says the blades need be constructed from metal. Composites have been a reality for some time now unlike back in the 70's and 80's when the eggbeater aquired it's bad reputation.

Mike

[ Parent ]

Re: A Curiosity (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by CG on Mon Dec 12, 2005 at 02:53:23 AM MST

It's just not true that no one has seen this machine in operation, it has been on test at Queebec University for over fourteen months. This is independent testing, and so far the results have been above expectations. Some of the engineers on this project were part of the team that worked on the Canadian 4MW Darrieus, so they ought to know what they are doing.

As for the dangers for school children, they have more chance of being shot by their classmates and other gun nuts than being injured by wind turbines.

[ Parent ]

cheap pot shots (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by wdyasq on Tue Dec 13, 2005 at 08:21:06 AM MST

Yep. 'As for the dangers for school children, they have more chance of being shot by their classmates and other gun nuts than being injured by wind turbines.'

Or getting run over by the school bus. Or getting killed in sports. All of which are not related to nuts with guns.

"Some of the engineers on this project were part of the team that worked on the Canadian 4MW Darrieus, so they ought to know what they are doing." - well they sure know what doesn't work long term. 14 months is not long term testing - IMO.

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen
[ Parent ]

Re: cheap pot shots (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by finnsawyer on Tue Dec 13, 2005 at 09:13:33 AM MST

I don't get some of this. What does kids being shot at or near school, or being run over by a bus have to do with this? There is a child living in the area who is paralyzed as the result of being hit by a driver while getting off of a school bus, as he drove around the stopped bus. A real tragedy. He violated the law, and I thought he got off too easily. While accidents do happen, I don't see how violations of the law should enter this discussion. Now, the State takes a real interest in our safety. I have to install three Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters in my entry panel at a cost of $45.00 per instead of the normal $3.50 circuit breakers, because somebody decided that this new technology will protect me from a class of fires that occurs one time in what, ten thousand? So, why are they turning a blind eye to the dangers from this proposed 'pig in a poke'?
GeoM
[ Parent ]

Re: cheap pot shots (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by TomW on Tue Dec 13, 2005 at 10:44:00 AM MST

fin;

I "think" the cheap pot shot was the comment about guns in the hands of children. Indeed you can be killed by many things and I find it unlikely that safety can be legislated whether it be traffic laws, electrical safety or gun laws. I find it rather ludicrous to have untested technology of a large rotating nature with a fall zone that includes a concentration of humans, especially children.

Personally, I took the gun comment as a cheap shot at legal gun ownership but thats just me. Everyone has their agenda, that is clear.

Could be wrong tho.

Cheers.

TomW

Without fools, you could not look intelligent. There is no knowledge without questions.

[ Parent ]

Re: cheap pot shots (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by CG on Wed Dec 14, 2005 at 03:27:31 AM MST

When somebody posts on this board that they have built out of odds and ends a Piggott style turbine everybody rushes to congratulate them on a job well done, nobody asks the builder of that turbine of his engineering experience or if the turbine has had "long term testing". But when a group of qualified engineers from reputable companies build and test in a university a wind turbine all sorts of angst comes to the fore. I have to say I do admire the people who build they own turbines, I just want a bit of common sense here, these Windstor turbines are not going to be errected without some sort of control by local authorities.

It's all about what society a person grows up in. Look how you have risen to the bait about guns - and I consider one child killed by another with an easily aquired gun rather an expensive shot not a cheap one - but then I come from a different part of the world. In years to come there may be many Windstor or other types of fairly large wind turbines in urban areas and people will think no more of it than you think of owning a gun. But rest assured if one of them fails causing serious loss of life before they catch on that will end urban siting of large wind turbines, but no matter how many people are killed by guns not too much is done about it where you are, but then that's your affair and not mine.

Please give Windstor a chance, I am pretty sure it's an important addition to wind energy.

[ Parent ]

Re: cheap pot shots (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by finnsawyer on Wed Dec 14, 2005 at 08:19:54 AM MST

I have indicated that I am willing to give them a chance. Many years of operation in an unpopulated area like that site along M-26.
GeoM
[ Parent ]

A Curiosity | 26 comments (26 topical)

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