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Renewable/Portable power generation and Storage | 29 comments (29 topical, editorial)

Re: Renewable/Portable power generation and Storag (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by BeenzMeenzWind (Grotbagseatssnails@lineone.net) on Sat Apr 30th, 2005 at 12:52:33 PM MST
(User Info)

I do keep mentioning this, but...

In the UK, we already pay over $6.00 a gallon for fuel. ScottAI said that should be the maximum sustainable price. Why does it keep getting dearer, then? Err...

Cos most of the price is tax, paid to the government so we can sustain the various pointless programs aimed at getting us to stop using our cars, making war on Iraq (and soon Iran, watch this space) to secure 'our' oil and making the beauracracy more dense, so we can't legally do anything about our plight. People started to use biodiesel, so... they put the fuel tax on that too! The official policy is that tax on fuel is to promote efficient use and protect the environment, but steps you take towards eco-friendliness are met with swift and stern retribution in the form of a whole new lot of taxes.

I'm not kidding, if you guys in the US had to pay what we do for fuel there'd be a civil war or military coup or something. And you guys STILL want to use biodiesel made from used cooking oil, even though your gas stations effectively GIVE you the fuel! Imagine how we feel?
'....If I even knew that I know nothing, that'd be something. But I don't!'
[ Parent ]

Re: Renewable/Portable power generation and Storag (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Sat Apr 30th, 2005 at 05:40:33 PM MST
(User Info)

I was hoping to get people thinking about it and see my Illusions.
Since you ask.

UK the price of corn is higher? So your math will be different. I notice when I was there everything is more expensive, wages are less. Taxes are high.

Second, the price of corn is <$2. (looked it up) Futures are predicting $3.
Third, Corn produces more than 2 gal per bushel.
Millage is much better than my original (years ago) calculations. (half the corn needed)
Forth, I did not include any taxes, which account for half the cost.
So two errors canceled out, ended up being correct final price.
People will demand tax relief and get it, when the price gets this high.

Other effects; increase the demand for corn, then the price will rise.
Economics will balance the cost of oil against corn.
Sugar can be very cheap, lower cost than corn. Sugar is what makes Alcohol, supplementing the corn with sugar will increase the Alcohol production. Or eliminating the corn all together. Many other sources of sugar. Best price will be used.
If alternate fuels are used, the demand for oil will drop, reducing it's price.

Corn for Alcohol will save the farmers the drying cost (nice point). You want the corn nice and juicy. In the right locations solar can be used to distill and dry the mash. (not likely)

Reading up on this after my post, over 60 millions gal of alcohol are used today, mixed with gas.

Problems with Alcohol in production cars today:
Pure alcohol is almost impossible. Alcohol loves water. About the best you can do is 95% any drink you get claiming >190 proof is BS.
Alcohol and water are very corrosive to your engine, that is why the percentage is limited. Remember when Gasohol come out? Was the same thing gas is today. The gas mix was changed never told people until years later. (I did not hear it...)
Alcohol absorbs water, when <92% it won't burn in the engine.

Energy density of alcohol is only 70% of gas. So, your fuel economy will decrease. The rest of the story is the compression can be upped to 12:1 vs 8.4:1 today. This makes up for the lower energy density, ending with 90%. So, you will see 10% fuel economy reduction. The octane of alcohol is like 150, anybody know? The compression ratio could be made higher, but the engine cost more. The same problem Diesel has.

Corn only captures <3% of the sun when using the Alcohol. Even cheap solar panels do 3 times that well. Storage is the problem. Hydrogen is not the answer.

There are many solutions, we need the prices of energy to go up, so we can start using the alternates. Breaking our need of oil.
All Alchemist please step forward and solve this problem.
(Please tear this apart, Using FACTS. But be nice:-) and
Have fun.

[ Parent ]

Re: Renewable/Portable power generation and Storag (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by farmerfrank on Sun May 1st, 2005 at 06:18:03 PM MST
(User Info)

Your right, the price of crude must go up before we smarten up and stop messing up the world. Ever notice how many people still speed which wastes fuel so it must still be cheap. Tapping into Alaskan oil isn't even putting a patch on the problem, more like putting more air into a leaky tire. Nuclear sounds modern, but not a good option. It only postones the inevitable problems for next generations.
Burning any substance, although some are better than others, still creates environment problems. Alaska is melting while my corn rots under the May snow. Something wrong here....big time.
American farmers are subsidised and corn can not be produced for $2.50 a bushel with any sort of profit. And yes corn still has to be dried even if converted to alcohol as it will rot to an unusable state within weeks of harvest if not dried. The way energy is increasing in price, it will cost more than $2.50 a bushel to dry within 5 years. Then theres the sugar and the Cuban embargo. Cuban sugar is about 3 cents a pound delivered by the boat load. American sugar is about 19 cents I believe although extra sugar is not required for ethanol production. There are many complaints about the odor coming from ethanol plants which radiat for miles.
I'm afraid solar, hydro and wind energy are the only solutions. Nice to see companies like BP sticking some of their record profits into solar cells.

the farmer

[ Parent ]

Renewable/Portable power generation and Storage | 29 comments (29 topical, 0 editorial)

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