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non conductors | 21 comments (21 topical, editorial)
Re: non conductors (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Fri Jun 3rd, 2005 at 06:02:28 AM MST
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 I think that using tubing for coils is a bad idea. That is a lot of large chunks of metal in there and eddy currents will start to cause you too much drag. To eliminate drag you need to use More Smaller Conductors. If you build the stator with pieces of metal as big as copper tubing in it, then it will always seem like the brakes are on when you spin it.
W o o f -={(

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Re: non conductors (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by electrondady1 on Fri Jun 3rd, 2005 at 10:07:02 AM MST
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hi woof, hope you had a good time in russia, will you post some pic.s? you might remember , my self education in regards to electrical generation is just getting started. i don't understand eddy currents yet. apparently they were a factor in danb's diesel geni's stator because he used copper ribbon instead of wire. another trigger,when windstuff ed posted about a cooked stator. when i research the archives on coil design/conductor usage etc.heat is allways mentioned as a negative byproduct.a limiting factor.isn't the whole process of furling the turbines a result of  upper limitations in the generator. it just seemed expiedient to cool the copper as that is were the heat is generated. rather than exotic materials/shapes or inserts in the stator resin.stator heat is not a factor at this stage for me .hey, i'm still dorking around with ceramic mags. but i did see my first neo mag. last week !! a local guy is begining a windmill manufacturing business.he wants to sell me his old experimental mags. 1" x1/4" disks, they shure are strong!  the 1/8"od copper tubeing might not be practical but it's only 2 times as thick as 14 gauge wire.  

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Re: non conductors (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Fri Jun 3rd, 2005 at 11:22:00 AM MST
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Eddy currents occur around the lines of force as they pas through the metal.

If you use metal strap edge-on to the field it's like you used wire the same diameter as the thickness of the strap, which is fine.  If you use it crosswise to the field you've got an electric brake.

Even though the tubing is very small, hollowing it out and expanding it makes it present more area to the field and thus have more loss than the same cross-section of copper as a wire would have.  So you get more losses.  It also means you have less wire in a given volume, which means you get less power out from a given geometry and set of magnets.  Finally, a narrow hole in the middle means a lot of fluid friction, and thus a lot of power required to pump the coolant.

What I'd do for liquid cooling is wind the coil with heavy wire and embed it in a coolant - or embed the portions of the coil that are NOT in the magnet gap in coolant, and let the thermal conductivity of the wire bring the heat to the coolant.  (Most of the heat conduction is done by the same electrons that constitute the electric current you're generating, by the way.  That's why good electrical conductors are also good thermal conductors.)

I'd use oil rather than something water-based for coolant.  Oil insulates.  Water-based coolants would promote electrolytic corrosion through any microscopic defects in your insulation.  In addition to the corrosion just sitting there, any slight imbalance in your rectifiers would quickly lead to major corrosion of the wire at the averages-more-positive end of the coil, possibly turning it into metal sponge within weeks.  Also:  The conductivity of water-based coolants could produce still more eddy-current losses, heating, and electrochemical pathologies as the mag field moves through them.

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Re: non conductors (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by electrondady1 on Fri Jun 3rd, 2005 at 12:40:08 PM MST
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ungrounded ,dam, i was really hopeing the copper tubing idea would make me a wealthy man and save the planet.  the lines of magnetic flux are vertical and are crossing the coil as it moves horizontaly through them, if the long side of the copper strap/ribbon is parallel to the flux lines it causes more eddy currents to occur in the metal. the eddy currents are varyations /fluxuations of electrical energy, that are nonlinear, unuseable, heatinducing and disruptive to the flow of electrons we are attempting to induce?

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Re: non conductors (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by kitno455 on Fri Jun 3rd, 2005 at 01:40:43 PM MST
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yes. but more importantly, eddy currents are heat producing, and hot wire has higher resistance than cool wire. wire with higher resistance makes more heat. hot wire has higher resistance than cool wire. wire with higher resistance makes more heat....

oh crap. recursion :)

allan

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Re: non conductors (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Fri Jun 3rd, 2005 at 10:36:06 PM MST
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... the lines of magnetic flux are vertical and are crossing the coil as it moves horizontaly through them, if the long side of the copper strap/ribbon is parallel to the flux lines it causes more eddy currents to occur in the metal.

Think of the magnetic field as a beam of light.

If the beam of light hits a broad surface you get a lot of eddy currents.  If it hits a narrow one you get few.

Your wire has to be pretty much at right angles to the field lines one way.  So if you imagine you've got a field "shining" onto the table in front of you, your wire might be lying, say, left-to-right and moving, say, front-to-back.  So far so good.

But if your wire is a strap you still have a choice:  Stand it on edge, or lay it flat.

If you stand it on edge the field "shines" on a very narrow cross-section.  Very little eddy currents.  If you lay it flat it "shines" on a broad surface.  Lots of eddy currents.  So when you wind with strip you line it up so the field goes along the broad surface rather then penetrating it - the "standing on edge" orientation in your table example.

Turning a given amount of round copper wire into a pipe makes the surface "seen" by the field broader.  So you get more eddy current losses, while the amount of generation remains the same.  But with that hollow in the middle you can pack less copper in your slots, so you get less current generated.  Lower gen and higher losses at the same time - phoey!  You have to cool it a LOT - and use stronger magnets or more of them - to make up for that.

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Re: non conductors (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by electrondady1 on Sun Jun 12th, 2005 at 06:52:11 PM MST
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  parallel is less eddy currents.

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Re: non conductors (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Fri Jun 3rd, 2005 at 05:43:53 PM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

To learn about Eddy Currents is real easy. While your magnet rotors are spinning, place a piece of aluminum in the position where your coils would be. Everything wants to stop. You could do the samething with a piece of your copper pipe instead of aluminum.
W o o f -={(

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Re: non conductors (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Sun Jun 5th, 2005 at 12:01:36 PM MST
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Demo in some electrical engineering and/or physics classes:

Large auditorium.

Big pendulum hangs from the celing over the lecturer's bench.  Weight on the end is a disk of copper.  On the desk is a very strong magnet (perhaps salvaged from a moderate-to-large magnetron tube.)  One of those buggers with a couple quarter-donuts of metal as thick as your neck, growing up out of a strong, flat, metal plate, so the ends face each other across a few inches of gap.  Magnet is positioned where the disk would swing through the gap at the bottom of its travel (if it could).  Pendulum is held up at one end of its travel by a rope.

Comes demo time.  The prof passes his hand through the gap ("Nothing up my sleeve - especially no mechanical watch!")  Then he yanks the rope, untying the knot and letting the pendulum swing free.  It starts toward the magnet, picking up a bunch of speed in its three-story drop.  The leading edge starts to enter the gap.

WHANG!

The disk rings like a gong and stops nearly dead with the leading edge inside the magnet gap.  Then it gradually eases into the gap until it's at the bottom of its travel, where it stops.

Eddy currents can produce a LOT of force.

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non conductors | 21 comments (21 topical, 0 editorial)

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