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Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizontal Axis | 17 comments (17 topical)
Re: Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizont (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 12:22:56 PM MST

The purpose, as you say, is to divert and deflect the wind and blade thickness is not necessary for this. It is hugely important that wind turbine blades be made thin.

Not always:  The purpose is to extract work form the wind.  You do that by diverting it, of course.  But you can sometimes extract even more work from it by adjusting its speed.  That's what a wing does - forcing the air to take a longer path, flow faster, lower its pressure further, and thus generate more lift, on the topside of the single foil.

And that's why lift-type mills, both vertical (darrieus) and horizontal (the ones that look like propellors, rather than the drag-type that look more like fans or blowers) have thick blades.

I like your double-bladed design as shown above.  (I'll delve into your web site later.)  Between the picture and your description it sounds like you're doing two things that sailboaters have done for a while, but applying them to a mill to good effect:

First, you're using a doubled blade - like the jib and mainsail on a sloop, the simplest of the multi-sail designs.  The jib does two things:  It provides its own lift, of course.  But it also directs the wind against the backside of the mainsail.  This improves both the attachment and the airspeed on the lee-side airflow of the main, increasing the power of the main.  You get, more power, power going TOWARD the wind (though not straight into it) and with two sails you get power at a TIGHTER ANGLE toward the wind.  You also get a more forgiving adjustment on the sail angles, which, in a rigid blade configuration, amounts to getting good power for a wider arc of the rotation.  An important point, though, is that the extra blade gives you the ability to increase the speed of the air over the leaward side of the (trailing) blade using only thin blades, rather than requiring a thick structure.  So you get a lift-type turbine with thin blades.  (You might think of it as separating and reversing the top and bottom sides of a thick blade, though that's probably distracting from what's really going on.  B-)  )  It also means you can have a TSR greater than 1 and optimize your leading and trailing edges separately.

The experience gained with the device I have over the last 12 months it has been running is that (1) the doubled blades allow it to start up and run (no small feat!) instead of sitting there without flow attachment on the blades and refusing to do a thing in the wind and (2) making the doubled blades thinner allows it to run faster instead of just turning as slow as molasses. This has been a total revelation to me and I'll bet my excitement shows.

And diservedly.  The combo of the blades makes it act like a drag turbine at startup, then switch to a lift turbine as it speeds up.  Good work!  (Like a Darrieus with a Savonius starter rotor, but without the non-optimized Savonius in the way when you're up and running.)

Second:  Sails themselves are thin but (except for jibs) the mast provides a fat leading edge.  Your text sounds like you've done something similar.  (I'll dig into your web site to see if this is a correct reading.)

The other thing is that I am sure something can be learned in the case of the horizontals from this as well.

Perhaps.

But lift-type horizontals are already well-developed and pushing the wall on efficiency.  The Betz limit tells you the maximum power can be extracted from a given airflow, and they're within a couple percent of it, so there's not a lot of room for improvement.

Horizontals, though, still have a long way to go.  The best Savonius designs in the literature are only getting about 2/3s of the power available, and the Darrieus designs also don't get all that close to the Betz limit and have major structural integrity issues.  And verticals are harder to protect from high wind damage because they don't have an aiming mechanism that can be subverted to feather them.  If these dusadvantages could be overcome verticals might be better than horizontals because of the relative simplicity of construction of large - and thus high-power - machines.  Thin-bladed lift-type vertical turbines (like the designs you and windstufnow are developing appear to be) could be the answer.

[ Parent ]



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizont (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Mon Aug 29, 2005 at 01:50:26 AM MST

Horizontals, though, still have a long way to go.

Oops.  Meant "Verticals, though, ..."

[ Parent ]



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizont (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by IntegEner on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:00:43 AM MST

Undergrounded Lightning Rod: Thanks for the time and extensive word work. It is nice that someone uses the terms "horizontals" and "verticals". It is so hard on the tongue and ears otherwise. It is like reducing the parasitic drag of the blades in that an ounce of consideration results in benefits out of proportion. Air is heavy and has viscosity and is quite a story apart from the hardware.

The "Knucks"
www.integener.com

[ Parent ]



Re: Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizont (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by IntegEner on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 10:00:40 AM MST

UL Rod: Hope this gets to you perhaps as "Recent Replies" or even if this has been put on your "Hotlist". This same message is also going to the others who have taken a serious look at this topic.

The project identified in these postings has been submitted to a state grant program as a pre-proposal abstract and word was just received that it has passed this first hurdle. The deadline for the full proposal submittal is the end of the month of September. Competition in these is quite high especially now with increased focus on energy issues. It does not matter where you are located as long as benefits from the work accrue to this state, my location. It is very good news that this project is in the running and you are invited to provide help with this insofar as your interests and time allow.

Incidentally, both verticals and horizontals are to be covered and a rotor for a horizontals rotator that makes use of these same concepts is to be made today. There is no time to put all this out on this discussion list and discretion is advised in keeping the good name of the "OtherPower" board intact.

Anthony "Knucks" Chessick
www.integener.com

[ Parent ]



Blade Parasitic Drag On Vertical Axis/Horizontal Axis | 17 comments (17 topical)

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