Go to Otherpower.com Home Page Go to Forcefield Shopping Cart Go to Wondermagnet.com Home Page
Front Page - [Homebrewed Electricity-- (wind) (solar) (hydro) (steam) (controls) (storage) (mechanical)] - Classifieds - Site News
Everything - Newbies - [Remote Living-- (housing) (heat) (light) (water)] - Reviews - Diaries - Our Products
Airfoil-missing losses | 15 comments (15 topical)
Re: Airfoil-missing losses (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by IntegEner on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 04:48:20 PM MST

Speaking as the intellectual I am supposed to be but have rarely found support for myself on this basis, here is a favorite quote:

Richard P. Feynman, the noted science researcher and Nobel Prize winner (1965 - quantum electrodynamics): "The behavior of fluids is in many respects very unexpected and interesting".

It serves no purpose to debate about some of these details when the wind plays tricks on even the best of us in its "unexpected" ways. Those who have been contributing to the discussions found on this website about the electrical details, the Faraday's Laws and all the rest of it, would be surprised to find that a very great level of detail of a similarly logical and compelling nature exists also within the framework of the interactions between the wind and each inch of the lengths along the blades in observing momentum and mass conservation.

The short answer to the objection you raise is that the walls of the tube just simply redirect all the air deflected by the blades back into a straight path again. This also is why wind tunnels have seen little application in wind energy work - unless the facility is very large the walls interfere with the wind turbine's true operation out in the open.

AVC, www.integener.com

[ Parent ]



Re: Airfoil-missing losses (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by finnsawyer on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 09:19:04 AM MST

Given your simplistic answer, I will take a stab at it.  It is well accepted that off of the trailing edge of an airplane wing the air has a downward flowing component (your vector direction change?).  As such, it can be resolved into a component perpendicular to the wing and one parallel.  Now an airplane wing is not a good model for the windmill blade, as it is being dragged through the air.  The primary force is drag, the secondary force is lift.  In the case of a windmill blade the primary force is lift, the secondary force is drag.  A better model for the windmill blade would be an airfoil stationary in a wind tunnel.  If there is a change in air velocity parallel to the blade it would show up as a reduction, not an increase, due to drag.  In the case of a blade assembly in a tube, then this backwash can be resolved into a component parallel to the incident wind and a component in the direction of the blade rotation, which would cause a vortex in the tube.  There can be no component perpendicular to the tube walls (the blade assembly completely fills the tube).  The vortex, if it exists, would quickly disappear in the tube as it encounters the tube walls.  In free air the vortex would expand as it moves downstream until it disappears.  The energy in the vortex would be energy lost.  There may, in fact, be no vortex.  As Dr. Feynman implies fluids do not always do as we expect.  If that were the case, then there would be no change in the velocity vector's direction.  Perhaps the "Newtonian Principle" can shed some light on this.  But, as it happens, the drag coefficient accounts well for losses, while the lift coefficient accounts for the usable power from the blade assembly.  This is why I recommend anyone involved in windmill blade design use the lift and drag coefficients.  
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Airfoil-missing losses | 15 comments (15 topical)

Menu
· create account
· How to use the board
· FAQs
· search the board
· Google search the board

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Powered by Scoop
You must be a registered user to post here. It's easy and free, and the link is on the upper right side of your page.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Postings are owned by the poster, but may be deleted or moved at the ADMIN's sole discretion. The Rest © 2009 Forcefield.
You can Email the board ADMIN here. PLEASE include the username you signed up with!