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Vawt Darrieus questions | 22 comments (22 topical)
Re: Vawt Darrieus questions (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by thefinis on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 08:35:05 AM MST

Sorry about this being a long post but it takes awhile to explain what I am trying to build unless you have seen the drawings. My internet went down this morning early so I had lots of time to type before posting.
Tower
I am not planning on using the H design but something more like what you might build for an S rotor. I have old highline poles that are 35' and want to set two of them 5' deep in the ground 25' apart east to west as my prevailing winds are south southwest. Then bolt another pole or a piece of 4" pipe across the top probably a foot or two from the top of the poles and another cross piece ten foot down(hope to go bigger but have to see how much torque the middle section can take). It will need either one or two support posts to help hold and stabilize the middle of the lower cross piece. Then guy the end poles with at least two guywires each. In the middle of the top cross support I'll attach a hub, lugbolts down probably from a pickup truck with disk brakes. This will have the bearing for the top and one set of brakes. On the bottom cross piece in the middle I will use the front hub from a 4 wheel drive, lugbolts up which should have disk brakes and my bearings(already designed for the loads) on it. The 4 wheel drive hub has a thru stub shaft lets me come off to either a genny or speed multiplier. If this design has too much give due to the span of the top cross piece then I will go to a four poles in the ground design and X my top cross pieces.
S rotor
This tower design lets me build a turbine with support arms top and bottom with a middle shaft that is mostly S rotor. I can then attach the airfoil to the arms top and bottom. For now the middle will be barrels cut in half with a 6" overlap bolted to 3/4" thick osb circles sealed and painted. The big debate right now is if the middle section will handle the torque it has to carry from the top airfoil support arms. I can go to an all steel middle and use old preassure tanks with the top and bottom cut off and welded to steel circles. The steel circles are rather pricey but I am still looking for a reasonable source for used flat steel. This whole thing gets bolted to the hubs with lugnuts and washers thru the end plates on the S rotor which are going to have to be steel so you can ubolt the pipe in place, balance it and then weld it. This is a simplified account as blancing the turbine and attaching the hubs, arms and airfoils are some of the most critical steps.
Airfoils
The airfoils are from The Wind Power Book by Jack Park but fitted for my machine. They are made from struts and cable with a sailcloth skin. Two things made me choose them over other blades and airfoils. One is they are light weight and the other is they change shape to match the changing air flow seen by a Darrieus. They have a very good L/D ratio and do not take a high level of skill to build. They would require sailcloth replacement every 2 or 3 years. To start with I plan to put brackets on the tube spar every 3 foot aprox to help hold the cable in place and to attach guywires to, from the middle circles in the S rotor. This means that my sails will be in 3 foot sections too. This is probably overbuild but in a 40 mph wind it should be traveling 200 mph so I would really like it to stay together. I am hoping that the highline poles will act like a yard string edger and shred the cables and spars if they fail and start coming loose absorbing much of the kinetic energy. I still plan on putting it several hundred feet from anything I don't want smashed.
Notes
This design if for an aprox 10x20 HxW turbine with the top at 28-30 high and the bottom at 18-20 foot high. The size I am trying to reach would be aprox 20x20 with the bottom at 8-10 ft high and the top at 28-30 ft high(for this one it will take the 4 poles in the ground tower design). The S rotor is a structural part of the turbine and can not be dropped out when up to speed which is why I am trying to keep its TSR down to .75 It will add little to total power but shouldn't act as a load either except in an overspeed condition. For better overspeed control should I try and make the TSR for the S rotor higher say 1 TSR which would probably act as a marginal load at design speed? Does anyone have info on how much a properly loaded turbine varies from design specs? I suspect it will end up running below design speed when loaded but haven't seen much to base expections on.

Finis
Texas born and bred
[ Parent ]



Re: Vawt Darrieus questions (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by vawtman on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 03:37:43 PM MST

Is there any way you can post some type of drawing.

[ Parent ]


Re: Vawt Darrieus questions (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by thefinis on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 04:11:12 AM MST

I will see what I can do but no promises.
Texas born and bred
[ Parent ]


Re: Vawt Darrieus questions (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by IntegEner on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 08:10:39 AM MST

No drawings necessary. This is a foolish project and one of the purposes of this collection of raconteurs of many nations assembled here on OtherPower.com is to point out where suggested ideas are not in keeping with reality. Similar property owner, windy locale, large vertical axis concepts have been seen before and even constructed - see http://www.energytransfercorporation.com for an example that is largely drag-based with no Darrieus features. My earlier support of this Montana (the Big Sky State) project was for its guts and gumption as a model for the world to see but it has not had any follow up to my understanding of it.

As the years go by it is finally becoming known what is going on here. The best of the verticals (I call them "verticals") such as the Darrieuses and H-Rotors can have at most only 2/3rds of the power production per square meter swept area of the horizontals (I call them "horizontals"). This comes from that dreaded word - theory. More than this, the verticals are "blessed" with the problem that their blades must fight much more parasitic drag on them while running at all points on their circuits but especially when traveling up wind, requiring unusual care in their design and something never called out for attention and addressed by even the experts at Sandia - whom I know and to whom I have mentioned my opinions on this subject. Time, though, cures all ills and some of this may become accepted dogma one day.

The verticals have their merits in other respects and God go with you if you wish to continue with one for your ranch after having read this.

Meanwhile some perfectly sound and acceptable horizontal axis turbines such as after market, refurbished 30 to 65 kw Nordtanks and 101 kw Micons and 40 kw Aeromans and even the lattice tower Windmatics are available for land owner projects like this. Good, consistent winds are helpful not just winds that come and go. Visit the IntegEner-Wind website to see the four Nordtanks installed right near the center crossroads of our town here and running to everyone's satisfaction. Again, you will be happy that this was said and I can even lend further ideas here, not just more sales propaganda.

(My own entrepreneur, remote, small battery power wind rotators may be not in the same league but they have a lot of thought behind them and appeal to official bodies with funds available.)

Anthony C.
IntegEner-Wind
Tehachapi, CA
www.integener.com

[ Parent ]



Re: Vawt Darrieus questions (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by windstuffnow on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 11:55:23 AM MST

  Sometimes, like a cup filled to the brim, we are so full of our thoughts and opinions that it becomes difficult to add thoughts and opinions of others to move forward and learn more... at times it's good to empty our cup.   There truly is more ways than one to accomplish the same outcome.
.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed
[ Parent ]


Re: Vawt Darrieus questions (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Waterfront on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 01:20:23 PM MST

Wow! Nicely written!
I agree. You should consider becoming a philosopher someday, I'm sure you'd be great at it!

Waterfront
[ Parent ]


Vawt Darrieus questions | 22 comments (22 topical)

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