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Heat from the Shower Drain | 23 comments (23 topical, editorial)
Re: Heat from the Shower Drain (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by GaryGary (gary@BuildItSolar.com) on Thu Dec 13th, 2007 at 07:57:44 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.BuildItSolar.com

Hi,
There is a good paper on a different style of grey water heat exchanger that was built and tested in Canada.  The GFX style exchanger can only recover heat from something like a shower where the hot water is going down the drain at the same time water is being used by the shower.  The drum style one in the paper can recover heat for situation where the hot water demand does not coincide with the hot water drain (like a bathtub).  On the other hand, the drum style exchanger has some challenges of its own:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/experimental.htm#GreyWater

Also some incomplete work on a version that Nick Pine and I worked on.  Its still sitting in a lonely corner of my garage -- any advice on this version would be appreciated.

Gary
Gary gary@BuildItSolar.com www.BuildItSolar.com



Re: Heat from the Shower Drain (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by zeusmorg on Thu Dec 13th, 2007 at 09:19:18 PM MST
(User Info)

 I have thought about systems such as you describe, but unless you have some usage for the greywater itself, which i don't (water in this area is almost cheaper than the electricity it would cost to pump it) then the gains you would get from such a system, to me outweighs the costs, area that the equipment would take up, and the hassle of periodic cleaning any storage type system would entail.. I think it would be more efficient to use solar DHW in that case. If used in conjunction with a greywater reclamation system, i could see the economic benefits of it. Showers can use up in the average home 30% of your hot water, so just reclaiming 50% of that would realize you a net gain of 15% of your energy on DHW. The other sources of hot water usage are generally lower when they go down the drain anyway having already given up some of their heat to the surrounding area.

[ Parent ]


Re: Heat from the Shower Drain (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by GaryGary (gary@BuildItSolar.com) on Fri Dec 14th, 2007 at 09:15:34 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.BuildItSolar.com

Hi,
The system I described does not attempt to reuse the greywater, its strictly a heat recovery system.  I suppose you could add a conventional grey water reuse system after the heat recovery.  On a dollar basis, for most people, the cost of heating water is a lot more than the cost of the water itself.

If I remember right, the Canada system recovered around 50% of the total water heating energy (not just showers).  Solar water heaters don't typically do much better than 70%, so they are really not so far apart, and I think that better design could bring them closer.   If this kind of heat recovery system can be built for substantially less money than a solar system, then it might make a lot of sense.  While there are some problems to solve, I think that these kinds of systems show a lot of promise.  These systems also work for people who don't have a good solar exposure.

Gary
Gary gary@BuildItSolar.com www.BuildItSolar.com
[ Parent ]



Re: Heat from the Shower Drain (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by fcfcfc on Fri Dec 14th, 2007 at 12:13:09 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi: I have thought about this a million times but have never done it. My guess is that today if you want to make it as cost effective as possible (sky high price of copper), off the top of my head I would replace a section of the down (vert) iron or PVC main drain pipe with a stainless steel 4" thin wall (cheaper than copper) and then weld a larger stainless steel pipe, say 8" (maybe sched 10 or 20) with a top and bottom ring to create a small (say 5 gallons) tank around the 4" down pipe that the cold DHW in feeds into. This would accomplish several things: Cheaper than copper, never corrode, it would give you a hybrid solution taking advantage of heating while you load and to a certain degree store heat and load later. I know when I visit my plumbing wholesaler these days, stainless fittings are allot cheaper than copper which is why the market has shifted as long as you don't have to solider it. Weld this up once and you are done forever, no matter how you clean your drains. The heat transfer cof. of stainless really won't hurt that much in this sit..

[ Parent ]


Re: Heat from the Shower Drain (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by BigBreaker on Tue Dec 18th, 2007 at 10:31:56 AM MST
(User Info)

I agree that copper is overkill.  It is most critical when the difference in temperature is low.  Pre-heating your hot water with the warm gray shower runoff is a high "delta T" application.  No reason to use copper.

[ Parent ]


Re: Heat from the Shower Drain (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by spinningmagnets (velmis1450bc(at)aol(dot)com) on Fri Dec 14th, 2007 at 10:44:36 PM MST
(User Info)

Hey Gary, I just checked out the GW heat recovery links, I always like the clever ideas on your site. Each one is appropriate for somebody, somewhere.

This month is when I've switched to a hot bath instead of a shower because of the cold air, must be near 55 gallons of 130F. If somebody can save a couple bucks using near-free junk to capture some of this...

I've always read that crossflow heat-exchangers transfer more total heat than a similar sized uni-directional flow (don't know why...) so here's my idea.

Raise the water heater, set 55-gal drum on floor next to it after wrapping with insulation. Get a 30-gal drum, flip it over, wrap with insulation, bolt bottom of the 30-gal drum to the inside of the 55-gal lid.

The hot drain water flows down into the center section, hits bottom and makes a U-turn and flows up around the circumference where it exits the lid near the edge. The outlet turns, goes through an "S" trap then flows to drain.

To make it cross-flow, cold water that is headed to the water heater is detoured to go into the lid near the edge and coils down the outer chamber and then makes a "U-turn". Then it continues on, coiling up the inner chamber where it exits near the center of the lid, and the short insulated exit pipe immediately feeds the water heater.

The outer chamber is only warm because it has been cooled slightly from the incoming cold tube, and the then-warmed incoming tube-water is further heated by the hotter inner chamber. The warm outer chamber also acts as an insulating jacket around the inner hotter chamber. This would further be helped by the heat in the inner hotter chamber wanting to rise instead of mix with the outer chamber.

My shop gets grease in 30-gal drums (18-wheelers) and we throw them away all the time, although I would prefer the outer 55-gal drum to be one of those one-piece plastic types I get from the horse ranchers.

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." - Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943

[ Parent ]



Re: Heat from the Shower Drain (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by Drawbar (tsj5874@yahoo.com) on Sun Dec 16th, 2007 at 05:48:46 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.railroadmachinist.com

I don't think the stainless steel idea would work. Stainless steel is very poor when it comes to heat transfer. Maybe I am out of line on this, but my experience as a machinist and fabricator, I know stainless does not transfer heat very well. That is why it is so hard to machine, and why it warps so badly when its welded. It just does not conduct heat. Perhaps with this little amount of heat though, and from the way the water is sitting there, it would work, so I could be wrong.

[ Parent ]


Re: Heat from the Shower Drain (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by desertcoyote on Sun Dec 16th, 2007 at 10:54:21 AM MST
(User Info)

I am not buying the vertical pipe method of heat transfer. And 50% recovery in this type of mode is not realistic, not at all. Maybe with capillary tubes in a laboratory under ideal conditions. Drains get coated with scum, hair soap... that alone would kill the thermal impedance and the idealized notion of the water spinning on the outside. It would be a fun physics problem to come up to a steady state solution assuming that the incoming water is getting heated by a percentage of the heat going down the drain. The most practical is the bath tube, let the water stand and cool down to the ambient. Otherwise letting the water flow into a plastic 55 gallon drum thereby heating the crawl space or basement could be workable. Entropy happens, .... use less hot water, take shorter showers!

[ Parent ]


Re: Heat from the Shower Drain (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by ghurd on Sun Dec 16th, 2007 at 11:28:08 AM MST
(User Info)

The PDF says 25 to 31% over 1 year in a real life test.

"Make", not buy.


[ Parent ]



Heat from the Shower Drain | 23 comments (23 topical, 0 editorial)

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