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Questions about cut in. | 12 comments (12 topical, editorial)
Re: Questions about cut in. (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by finnsawyer on Sun Feb 10th, 2008 at 11:20:22 AM MST
(User Info)

I might have known that since you violated the geometry in asking the question that you would get into trouble with the answer.  Think of it this way.  The smaller wire has a coating so that it takes up the same space and has the same number of turns.  Then both alternators would have the same voltage at the same RPM.  But the one with the larger wire has less resistance, so you could get more current and power if the mill can provide it.  But in reality you have not gotten something for nothing, as by using the thinner wire in the other case you gave up potential power.  That is, it was a poor design.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: Questions about cut in. (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by TheCasualTraveler (a.miklos@yahoo.com) on Sun Feb 10th, 2008 at 11:38:26 AM MST
(User Info) http://thecasualtraveler.com/wind.htm

     I think I get it. The extra power I get from the larger wire does not come from nothing but instead it is (at least in part) the power that was lost to resistance (heat) with the smaller wire. By using the larger wire which has less obstruction to the flow of current the power simply becomes useful instead of being lost to heat. Is that right?
Andy
[ Parent ]


Re: Questions about cut in. (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Flux on Sun Feb 10th, 2008 at 11:56:46 AM MST
(User Info)

Yes if you take it to extremes the high resistance winding produces most of the power available as heat in the winding. The low resistance one is capable of supplying the power to the load.

When you avoid the extremes you have a tricky region where you are balancing alternator efficiency against power available ( prop efficiency).

Over a very limited range of wind speed as possibly in your case you will see more benefit from the low resistance winding, the effects of serious stall don't really take place until you reach about 50% over cut in wind speed. Very different when your range of wind speed can go to over 3 times cut in wind speed.

The fact that you don't see a spectacular improvement at 24v almost certainly indicates wind speed as the limitation rather than alternator resistance.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Questions about cut in. (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by TheCasualTraveler (a.miklos@yahoo.com) on Sun Feb 10th, 2008 at 12:15:53 PM MST
(User Info) http://thecasualtraveler.com/wind.htm

     I think one problem is my understanding of "Stall" The otherpower wind terms page doesn't define stall and I have been under the impression that stall is when your alt hits cut in speed but if there is not enough wind to push it past this point the rotor blades slow down taking it below cut in at which point the lessened load makes it speed up again, and it just sort of bounces on and off of cut it.

But you wrote, "the effects of serious stall don't really take place until you reach about 50% over cut in wind speed." and that seems much differant than what I was thinking.

     Also, I see in the Otherpower "Bottom Line" article there is a graph that shows the power an efficient alternator should be able to get from various size rotors in differant winds. At 8MPH it shows 25 watts for a 6' diameter rotor and at 12 MPH it shows 85 watts. If I can get 20 to 80 watts then I will be happy!
Andy
[ Parent ]



Re: Questions about cut in. (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Flux on Sun Feb 10th, 2008 at 01:03:02 PM MST
(User Info)

Yes stall is a bit strange. If you hit cut in below the peak of the blades power curve then you just don't get away. Normally the trick is to get the blades out of stall before you reach cut in speed.

Just as an example, imagine a set of blades designed for tsr 6. If you aim to reach cut in with the blades running at tsr 6 or more you find the blades speed up rapidly to cut in. If the alternator is vastly too powerful the blades will not have the power to hold this tsr and the blade speed will hold constant and wind speed rising will mean a fall in tsr. This would result in operating at near constant speed and the tsr would fall constantly. There would be an increase of power as the tsr falls from above 6 down to perhaps tsr4. beyond this the power may remain fairly constant.

You would probably not see any speeding up and slowing down, it would sit at near constant speed.

In real life with any reasonable alternator efficiency you will never reach that level of stall if your cut in is at design tsr or above. Beyond cut in you should see a fairly steep rise of power but that will become less steep as you get down below ideal tsr.  How far you go beyond cut in wind speed before things levels off depends on the alternator efficiency. If the alternator is too inefficient to bring the tsr below 4 at any point the blade power will not level off and anair gap alternator will increase power until it burns out. Iron cored alternators can reach a constant power output condition due to reactance if conditions are right and the blades will run away while producing constant power (not to be confused with stall).

This graph shows the effect very well. It is for a 6ft prop with a powerful alternator.
Connected directly the thing stalls badly. With some resistance to reduce the alternator efficiency you see a fair improvement in power out even though the alternator is less efficient. This is normally the best compromise with direct loading.

The to curve shows what happens when you match the load to let the prop run at constant tsr without lowering the alternator efficiency. You then get best prop and alternator efficiency with no trade off between one and the other.

As you can see there is not a lot of difference in the lower winds but things change dramatically in high winds.





[ Parent ]



Re: Questions about cut in. (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Flux on Sun Feb 10th, 2008 at 01:15:33 PM MST
(User Info)

Sorry wrong curves and posted twice, See if this works.



Those power levels are all you can expect at 6ft, you may not see that with pvc blades.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Questions about cut in. | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 editorial)

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