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Excess DHW heat to generate electricity | 34 comments (34 topical, 0 editorial)
Re: Excess DHW heat to generate electricity (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by OzPete51 on Sat Mar 29th, 2008 at 05:23:51 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi Damon,
I am currently working on such a system, the object being to utilise VAWTS and Solar reflective heating panels to heat water and supply power to the grid.
Avoiding boiling is hopefully not going to be an issue, as my current idea is to use either antifreeze or high density salts to bring the boiling point of say 100-200 gallons of water to way over 100 deg c. This will then convert a small amount of a large cold water storage (up to 5000 gallons of water) to steam or near boiling water as required.
Using this concept - the antifreeze water is kept well below its boiling point by merely adjusting the flow of cold water that it is heating through coils. This should be simple to automate and should have minimal water loss through steam.

Your second point of using a stirling engine I believe is sound, but expensive. I believe steam turbines are much cheaper and can deliver higher payloads for the same dollars invested. You will probably find a 5HP stirling engine generator is much more expensive than a 5HP steam turbine generator.

The key measure of success for any such installation is pay-back. The more dollars spent - the longer to recoup and make money/free energy.

In short, as I have posted before, hot water has wonderful potential as the conversion medium for both VAWTs and Solar systems to link together and feed the Grid.

As always - Have fun in the sun - but don't get into too much hot water!

cheers
OzPete51

******* Original post
Hi Y'all,

I had been thinking about oversizing a solar thermal system so as to be able to provide DHW all year round and possibly even some space heating.  As pointed out any such system has the potential to boil like mad in summer in the absence of a decent heatsink such as a thermal store, especially when the household goes on holiday.  And not many seem convinced about using a drainback system to avoid damaging boiling for various reasons.

   1. Avoiding boiling: What if instead of a GSHP/thermal-store heatsink an air-source heat-pump was run in reverse to dissipate excess heat in the system.  Or maybe something as simple as a solar-PV powered fan blowing air over external cooling coils.  Could that avoid the boiling problem?
   2. Could we do better than this and actually extract some of this waste energy from the ~60C temperature (DHW at 80C to air at 20C) gradient with (say) an Stirling Engine and a grid-tie inverter?  The overall efficiency need not be large (and it won't be as a pure heat engine) and the grid is our infinite energy sink.  My guess is the theoretical efficiency limit would be ~20% (80 / (273+80)) and maybe we might hope for half that, ie 10%.  That would still be comparable to thin-film PV in terms of overall efficiency per square metre for example, which seems remarkable.

So (1) avoid boiling and (2) possibly recover some excess for the Grid.

What do you think?

Rgds

Damon

[ Parent ]



Re: Excess DHW heat to generate electricity (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Sun Mar 30th, 2008 at 02:51:06 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

Hi,

Thanks!

I've exchanged a few emails with a solar-thermal company here in the UK over the last 24 hours or so to get a rough idea of a system to cover all our DHW needs except in the depths of mid-winter.  In this case a pressurised system with ~8msq of collector total on our east and west facing roof surfaces.  Even then I might have to exchange my daily hot bath for a quick shower in December!  This system is not looking cheap, but it is looking fairly routine in terms of well-tested technology.

That arrangement would have us rejecting 80% of the collected energy, some 40kWh/day solar energy wasted, in June.

Now, to cover the bulk of our over-night electricity consumption we'd really only need somewhere between 50W and at most 200W for lights and the TV, and my Internet-facing Web server.  So bleeding out the energy slowly all night might be good and require smaller and quieter and cheaper equipment.

(I'm not attempting to handle the load spikes from the kettle, dishwasher, etc...  We might as well take advantage of the Grid for that since it's there!)

It looks as if we could relatively easily accommodate a 500l DHW tank.

Supposing we stored excess energy by letting that tank reach 90C, and given that we only need DHW at ~50C (achieved with a thermostatic mixing valve for safety), the stored energy not needed for the DHW itself (and possibly having allowed a weekly excursion above 70C to kill Legionella, etc) is 40Cx500l = 40*500*4.2kJ = 84MJ = 23kWh which is about half of the excess energy that we'd otherwise reject in mid-summer, which means that we could just about discard that portion overnight and the remainder during the day.

We could discard that stored heat at about 2kW (ie 2kWh per hour) to keep up in summer, and at an efficiency of (say) 10% for a Stirling/Rankine/similar engine, that would be an electrical output of 200W, which matches the night-time loads described above.  We might want to bleed off power at as constant a rate as possible overnight based on the length of night for the time of year, tank temperature, etc.

I'm wondering that if at 200W or less a solid-state (Seebeck) device might be possible.  I'm only expecting/needing a conversion efficiency of 10% or so anyway.  I still don't know about a grid-tie inverter, but maybe a Seebeck device might behave enough like solar PV (stable DC voltage) to use a small one of those.

In summer the otherwise-rejected 40kWh/day of energy might contribute as much 4kW/day of electricity to the Grid, a fair match to the 1.29kWp of solar PV of similar surface area already installed.

Someone tell me if I counted my fingers and toes wrongly again!  B^>

Rgds

Damon

[ Parent ]



Excess DHW heat to generate electricity | 34 comments (34 topical, 0 editorial)

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