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Flow diagramm for combined water and space heating | 19 comments (19 topical, editorial)
Re: Flow diagramm for combined water and space hea (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by mbeland on Thu Apr 10th, 2008 at 10:37:04 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi Zap,

Thanks for pointing me to Gary's flow diagram.

I already have the hydronic radiant heating system in place with a circulating pump and valves controlling flow to different (6) zones in the house. Thus I thought that for space heating I would just need to put a heat exchanger coil in series with existing pump.

If I understand you well, for water heating I could simply do as if the water heating loop would be an additional zone in the house thermostatted with a different set point. That seems interesting: saving on additional pump and having just one heat exchanger coil. The problems I see are the following:

  1. - right now the plumber has installed a pressure limiter so that pressure in the radiant heat loops is lower than domestic water (that is probably required by code I assume to make it safer for leaks)
  2. - right now, the water is not (or almost not) renewed in the radiant heating loops so there is no build up in the pipes (our water is hard). Tapping into the same circuit as domestic water would renew the water.
One idea for a progressive set up: Since the system would probably be sized for less than 100% heating and water heating, maybe I could concentrate on heating the house at first since it is the biggest part of my energy bill but with a set of valves, I could switch from heating the house to heating water during the summer or spring.  Add additional coil and pump later so both could run all year long. Is it dumb or what?

What do you think?

Martin
Eau, soleil , le vent
Eau, soleil, le vent
[ Parent ]



Re: Flow diagramm for combined water and space hea (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Gary D on Thu Apr 10th, 2008 at 11:00:15 AM MST
(User Info)

 Tapping into the circuit through a heat exchanger for domestic hot water pre heat would be like an extra zone. It wouldn't matter what pressure you are running, not touching the household water supply (if this seems logical).
 

[ Parent ]


Re: Flow diagramm for combined water and space hea (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by mbeland on Thu Apr 10th, 2008 at 11:27:41 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi Gary,

I don't quite understand. Do you mean I could have heating zones running at a lower pressure than water heating loop without mixing the two? Do you mean by putting a heat exchanger coil in the domestic hot water tank? This what I would have liked to avoid and that your tanks I thought could allow to avoid.

Thanks or your help.

Martin
Eau, soleil, le vent
[ Parent ]



Re: Flow diagramm for combined water and space hea (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Thu Apr 10th, 2008 at 06:14:59 PM MST
(User Info)

You can put a heat exchanger OUTSIDE the domestic tank.

Doesn't have to be a coil:  Vertical pipe-in-pipe works.  You can build that with copper pipe, Ts, and reducers - then wrap it with insulation.  Hook one section to the tank at top and at/near the bottom (i.e. T off the sediment drain tap for the bottom if your tank doesn't have a tap low on the side).  Pump the hydronic water in the top and out the bottom of the other part of the exchanger, to create an efficient counter-current setup.  (Convection will drive the tank water in the bottom and out the top.)  The tank circuit will be a convection loop rather than pumped, so use the part of the exchanger with the least resistance to water flow.  (You'll probably want to make that the inside pipe so you don't lose part of the heat you've transferred into the tank part of the circuit by conduction to the air from the outside of the outer pipe.  Make it big to minimize friction.)

Alternatively you could pull the insulation off your water tank temporarily and solder a coil of copper tubing to and around it before restoring the insulation.  Again pump the hydronic water in the top and out the bottom to create an efficient counter-current heat exchanger (since the hot water will rise to the top of the tank).

[ Parent ]



Re: Flow diagramm for combined water and space hea (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Thu Apr 10th, 2008 at 06:20:30 PM MST
(User Info)

The nice thing about pipe-in-pipe is that the central pipe runs straight through the Ts, reducers, etc.  So unless something rots a hole in it you can be confident the liquid in the two circuits won't mix.  The inner pipe can handle a pressure difference about as great as the pressure it can handle as a hunk of bare pipe.  (And if the hydronic system has a lower pressure than the house water you'll still be OK even if you get a pinhole leak, since the water will flow from house to hydronics.)

Meanwhile any flaws in the fittings will cause a leak of the outer circuit water to the surrounding area, rather than between the two circuits.

[ Parent ]



Re: Flow diagramm for combined water and space hea (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Lumberjack on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 05:40:51 PM MST
(User Info)

pipe in pipe is not legal in many areas.... it does not count as double walled.

[ Parent ]


Re: Flow diagramm for combined water and space hea (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 01:37:06 PM MST
(User Info)

Good point.

OK.  Then solder a coil of copper tubing to a hunk of copper pipe, wrap it in insulation, and you're all set.  Hydronic water through the coil top-down, convection loop between bottom and top of water heater through the inner (fat) straight pipe.

[ Parent ]



Re: Flow diagramm for combined water and space hea (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Lumberjack on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 04:52:25 PM MST
(User Info)

One of the better schemes is to remove the insulation from a water tank and wrap it with copper tubing after which you replace the insulation....

[ Parent ]


Flow diagramm for combined water and space heating | 19 comments (19 topical, 0 editorial)

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