New Camera, "it's digital"

[12AX7]

dear diary

I sure hope these come out okay, camera is set at it's lowest setting.

Well, it's going to be a low speed hydro, and as asked before..  how slow can it go?

This is the spot

another view

So far this motor is on the top of the "short list"

The stator

If these pics work,  more to come.

[12AX7]

They look okay to me,  so here's some more.

except for the double pic

Here's a side view of the "location"

and forgot to show the rotor.

Think..   submerged windmill?

[ghurd]

If you want slow volts, without wire changes, I have had "good luck" with lower HP motors.

Use good magnets.  Maybe N.T.L.'s new #29's will fit?

Trouble is its not what I was looking for.  :/

Big fun just the same.

G-

[oztules]

Looks like the spot for a water wheel  

I dont see how your gonna do this, but it will be sure fun to watch.

.......oztules

[zubbly]

hi 12AX7,

last year i converted a 3hp motor with stock winding (230/460 volt). it was also a 4 pole machine. this is the one that i dropped with the tower last fall and bent the shaft of the unit.

i used 15 mags (3/4 round by 3/8 inch thick) per pole, 60 total for the conversion.

lathe test AC volts was as follows: ( i also had added 3 extra leads to get possible delta connections)

1Y-190 rpm=45.58 volt

   300 rpm=78.5 volt

   460 rpm=118 volt

   755 rpm=190 volt

1 Delta-190 rpm=24.5-32 volt (unsteady reading)

        300 rpm=45 volt

        460 rpm=68 volt

        755 rpm=110 volt

your unit "should" produce voltage/rpm somewhat similar as the cores would be very similar. i just wanted to give you this test info so you have an idea of what to expect from your unit if you convert it and consider using it at low rpm.

my rotor diam before converting was 4.222 inches and the laminated core is 4.322 inches long.

hope this helps you,

zubbly

[Nando]

What is your name ?.

I do not like to write to "radio tubes" or "hollow semiconductors" !!.

You are not supplying the "proper" information to really know what to do or suggest.

Though the photo shows water "ripples" the info is not enough to define what can be done.

What is needed is the water volume liter/second or gallon/minute and the stream head in the distance of interest, like from the entrance and exit of the stream in the property where the hydro may be located.

Also, water velocity may be one another requirement.

Any type of turbine needs head and/or water velocity.

So collect the info and report it.

Nando.

[12AX7]

Just a few more

Top view, water level low (not it's lowest but close).

Another top view, slightly zoomed in.   note the water level is up a bit (all that rain that DanB brought with him to WI.)

Taken from a few paces up river,  shows the "rocks"  covered.

[12AX7]

Hello ghurd

More luck with lower hp?  your saying lower than 5hp?

N.T.L.?   I'll give google a try!

thanks!

[12AX7]

Hey Oztules!

Yeah!    Thats JUST what I was thinking!

but..  WAIT!    don't see how I'm going to do it?

Look around!  I'm not in this alone!  I'm looking for all the help I can get,  my problem is most eveyone here can't see what's behind the screen (the piles of accumlated stuff).    It's like the show "Junk Yard Wars".  "this is what you have, and we want you to harvest power"

So there will most likely be advice given that won't match with how the "yard" is stocked.  But still...  if I fail, it may reflect poorly on this place   'w'

Now with the camera, I'm able to share 'whats on the piles'.

So..  ON another note...   Have you received my email?

sent it a few days ago, it "WENT"  but I'm not sure where.  

btw,   your out there ...  in the middle of nowhere on the third rock,  and you speak of a 60in. tv?

enjoy!

[12AX7]

Hello Zubbly!

I'll be having lots of questions for you,  just not ready for them.

This motor was headed to the scrap yard when I "scooped" it up.

(I paid scrap rate,  so it really wasn't a case of dumpster diving).

It came from the parts stock room, so I'm pretty sure it "worked".

However,   the name plate shows 230/460 but there were only three wires in the connection box.

When I opened it up found the stator "like new" but no sign of the missing leads.

SO, I'm guessing that at some time the motor failed in some way, was then serviced (at which time it was wound for only one voltage) and returned to stock.

What do you think?

Took a bunch of pics of the stator, and have started "picking" at the lacing and seprating the internal connections. Taken more pics,  need to upload them.

Plenty of questions to follow!

Thanks!

[12AX7]

Hello Nando

Well, if it's easier for you.   I'm Mark.

and my most of my tube use is much lower than RF (more like.. 20 20000 cps)

I know many semiconductors sound hollow but didn't know that they really are!

Nando, The problem of not having the proper info has been an "issue" for me for some time.  As I posted,   what I'll do, will be more a funtion of "what I have".

I welcome any and all suggestions.

I'll be taking more pics of the location, with the hope/intention of showing the current.   (keep in mine the level changes frequently).

I'm unsure of ""the stream head in the distance of intrest"

Due to local laws and regulations,   what  you see is what I've got.

I'll not be able to alter the site.  

I've read/seen plenty on 'head',   and by my understanding of it..   I haven't any.

However,  in the "sweet spot"   the river bottom drops about 20 inches (over 'about' three feet).  This causes both a strong and steady current.

I'm currently working on two differnt plans.   The first plan is a simple paddle wheel, in "waterwheel" terms it will be an "undershot".  I should back up a bit..  and say it's not yet really a plan,  more like an idea.

The other..   being weather driven (the wheel can't turn when the river is frozen). is a prop type trubine located inside a plastic drum.  (also more an idea, than a plan)

More info..  to follow!

thanks!

[Nando]

Mark:

I see that you are one of those that have "decided" that tubes is the only way for audio work. !!

I have designed 0.5 to 3 KW audio power amplifiers, linear, PWM and R.F ( 2 Mhz) types.

Now that I know that you are not a "hollow semiconductor" I would like to ask if it is possible to place a pipe in the stream for some good distance to "collect" all the head possible, including the 20 Inches you talk about.

You have something but you need to qualify what you have !!!

Stream head is the drop of the stream in your "territory".

You need to measure the water velocity.

Also, what type of water volume can you identify ?.

A wheel there I see it as a very low power set up and somewhat impractical, prop turbine fed by a pipe as I indicated before may be the solution that may even work in winter if the water under the ice does not freeze.

There is a guy in Canada that does that, close to the Pacific coast, in winter he was getting 2 KW, about 3 years ago, last time he contacted me asking for some additional assistance to improve the system.

Nando

[oztules]

To get a city girl to uproot and go out to the middle of no place, sometimes one has to resort to bribery... she's a telly junkie so... 60 inches of tv PLUS satellite plus recordable dvd was first base....and for that (as a bonus) I was allowed to bring my grader and my 955l.trac... unashamed skulduggery I guess.

Email has arrived, I'm currently getting the circuit scribbles all together, and putting them on computer on an orderly fashion.

 The crossover is done.... just uploaded it.

Still have to map out circuit for the feedback system and output. Bloody program is on windows, which keeps turning off the laptop when I'm halfway through. Linux never does that. I think it is in the thermal control of the fan for the laptop, windows doesn't do it properly and it overheats...bum.

Here are the plans for the comlete unit

 

That'll keep you going for a day or so. I'll port the circuit for the motional feedback part next and a photo of the finished board.... when I charge tthe batts in the camera up.

well splosh splosh

...........oztules

[oztules]

OOpps I forgot to explain it

The crossover splits the signal into three frequency bands. L+ M+ H+ ie low uninverted, mid uninverted and high uninverted(+)

It is formed in the following sequence. The input comes in  as a composite signal of L+M+H+ and is presented to  the low drop out filter  c5,c6 r26 and r4 and then to the base of N2.so on that base (n2) is prenented M+H+ This in uninverted through N2, and presents on c1 c2 r1 and r2 (high pass filter) This leaves the H+ on the base of N1. It goes through the emitter follower without inversion to the output... H+ treble out

Mean time the M+H+ on the emitter of n2 goes through to the base of n3. It gets amplified -1 times to M-H- this is mixed with the h+ via r12 and r9. The result is fed to the N4 where it is amplified -1times again to give M+.... midrange out c12 and r16 keep the acoustic curve tidy.

The low freq L+ is formed by L+ M+ h+ arriving at the base of N5 whilst being mixed with M-and H- nN5amplifies -1 times and leaves the l- to be inverted by N6 and out to the output as Bass output.

 c10 and r21 keep the signal tidy and also account for some straightening of the curve to allow for the MFB signal, and some box compensation... these can be fiddled for that prupose.

simple but effective.

any questions?  Also found a pic of one of the first boards I built with this circuit board design back in 2002.

You can modify the board to take  your gainclone chips with ease if you use a protel autotrax program (free from portel or airbourne electronics I think) and the file is called ALBI.PCB in my files which has this board in it. the tda 2050 or lm1875 (i think) can be driectly replaced except for the extra holes etc.

what it looks like

all the best

.............oztules

[oztules]

Your no doubt wondering what happened to the aforementioned picture, and why I have reposted the circuit.....coz I'm a blithering idiot. I shall try that again

Here is the picture of the board in it's final state    ta da..... (chewing on fingernails in hopeful anticipation)

Hopefully I have selected the right one this time. Excuse the shocking typing. I just cannot get used to this laptop keyboard. all fingers and thumbs

...............oztules

[sahlein]

Is it possible, looking at all the "stonework", That this was once the site of a waterwheel of some kind??

Joe

[12AX7]

Hello Nando,

Just discovered that my responce to your second post is missing.  so...

I'm not a 100% tube person.  Just a simple wanna be.  L

I suppose I could lay a pipe in the river bed, but unsure that it would help much.

I've about 300' of river frontage,  but I don't think there's a whole lota drop.

I have thought about trying to measure the total drop over the distance using a "elcheapo"  lazer level.   But due to it's low output I'd need to do it at night.

AND..  I'd need a second pair of hands.   THe boss ISN'T fond of walking in the river, and to ask her to play in the river at night may cause great harm to come to me!

About water velocity..

I have tried using a fish locator/speed indicator [ a small paddle type pick-up ] mounted on a board and floating in the "spot".  The results were too erratic to trust.

ranges were as low as seven and up to sixteen mph.

If you look closely at the pic (top view) you can see the way the rocks "funnel" the water.  I'm pretty sure that the water flow/speed is very different from the surface to closer to the bottom.  Last year I attempted to make a graphic chart of the bottom (using a plumbob on a string) it didn't come out "neat enough" so I trashed it.  once the water temp drops a bit more, I will try it one more time.

I've stood in the 'spot' many a times.  When the river is at it's lowest [that's the lowest I've seen it] holding a coal style shovel in the stream is next to impossible, when the river is "high" one couldn't stand in the spot with out being 'washed away'.

Theres always plenty of power there, and often quite a bit more.

I'm hoping that the way the river bottom drops and the way the rocks are layed out (No!  I never ever moved a rock!) will act together to help spin a paddle wheel. {the current plan is for the paddles to be 'scooped' shaped.

I'm also working on the idea of another "system" which would use a 'turbine/prop'.  Most likely mounted inside a plastic 55gal drum.  I've also spent a fair amount of time looking at some of the Vats others are playing with...  thinking why not one to run underwater?   or..  even a copy/knock off of "Gorlov's" helical turbine.  

I'll try to supply better info,  just need a good plan on how to collect it!

Thanks for any/all replies!

[12AX7]

Hello Oztules!

You've been one BUSY boy!  very nice!  (I have to wonder what it took to bribe your wife to allow you to spend so much time on that project).

And speaking of time,  I'm all out right now, so I'll have to get back to you with a few questions!

Thanks for the posts,  I've a lot of reading to do!

just one very quick question,  are you still using this amp in your system?

Enjoy!

[12AX7]

Hello Joe!

Yes,  I suppose it is possible.  But I don't think so.  I've done some looking for info/history with little luck.  My house is just about "inline" with the two stone walls,  I think it was either an old road bed or a rail road bed.  I base this on all the ROCKS I find if I dig anywhere near the house.  If I dig a hole that's 1ft by 1ft I'll get out a pile of rocks thats 3ft by 3ft.  I know my math seems a bit off,  but it's my back that tells me I'm right!

[TomW]

12;

Here is an old carpenters way of finding equal height over long distance.

a hose filled with water will show the same height at each end by the water level. Before the days of lazer levels we used a couple clear tubes and any length hose filled with water. You mark the water level on each end then you know that those 2 marks are level. On a stream I suppose you could drive a stake into the bed and tape the end of the hose just under the surface then run the hose to your lower end and by finding the point at which water flows out of the hose you would have the height of the upper end and a tape measure from there to the surface will give your head.

Or at least I think it should.

Cheers.

TomW

[ghurd]

I used clear 1/2" tubing full of water and a drop of food coloring in each end for building large (like 50') decks. For marking the posts to be cut.

I believe it was more accurate than the laser.

And it goes around corners.

G-

[oztules]

no dabnabbit

The minister for finance, war, and everything else has decreed that there will be no system untill a new house is effected. No room in the shed.

 I'll try and get the power circuits drawn out soon with the motional feedback section and an explanation..

................Oztules

ours is not to reason why .......etc etc.

[12AX7]

Hello TomW

I've used the 'old' level back in the old-end days.

I admitt, I never gave it a thought.  At first I thought to myself.. DUH! 'I should have  thought of that'..   but then... it occurred to me..   ever float a rubber hose 300+ ft in water..  [with a current]...?  unless one were to weigh it down some how..  I suppose.

Besides, I haven't a hose that long.   (might be a good reason to buy one,  I'll try flying it past the 'boss')

Thanks for the input!

[12AX7]

Hey Oztules!

Unsure what the minister of "Pain and Pleasure" means when she wants her house 'effected'

No room in the shed?  is that anything like the famous DOG HOUSE the rest of us have spent time in?

I pretty sure I understand enough to say...  keep the boss happy, take your time with the rest!..

I find space under my feet,  hear my own voice saying "how high"..  just don't know why.

ect...ect.    L

[wdyasq]

Could be done in "steps" - IF, one can add.

Ron

[oztules]

hi 12ax7

To  the hose keep out of the river. Use a post (decent stick/stake) at the side of the river where you want to start. mark say 2 foot above water line.. This will be the arbitrary data level.

Bang a few more sticks along the bank down to where you are going to check. Simply mark the datum levels on each as you go with the hose level device (length of hose is the limiting thing in the distance between the stakes) Keep the data line constant. (if you wrap a piece of tape at this height (white etc) you will be able to line them all up and they should be level via eyesight)

When you finally get to the last stake, the datum level on this stake down to the waters edge height will be the head height drop + the original 2feet. subtract the 2 feet and presto. you have the head for that distance.

So you don't need to get wet, nor the hose to be submerged / wet either.... nor the Boss.

a wet feet free zone

.................oztules

[Nando]

MARK:

You really try to make things the hard way.

ANY TURBINE will require either water volume and pressure or water volume and water Velocity.

Your "data collection" will not work to give you proper "parameters" for determining what is available energy wise and, as well, to define what type of turbine you need for the site.

For sure, I see that you are guessing what to do, just by your remark :"Gotlov's" helical or Turbine/prop in a 55 gal drum.

Caveat Emptor

Nando

[12AX7]

Hello wdyasq!

Now your going high teck on me,   stepping and adding at the same time?

Next thing your going to suggest will for me to walk and chew gum!    AT THE SAME TIME!

OH!   duh!  ya mean a short hose!  many sampels!  (damn if that don't sound TOO digital to me!)

Keep the help coming!

[12AX7]

Hello Ozutles!

"bang the datum stakes..."    L  Like I told Ron..  sounds alot like digital!

and on another thought...   who says...  it won't be fun...  walking in the river at night with the mrs.   late summer..  the water temp isn't too bad.   up river, where it's a bit darker..  private...  full moon?   ahhh...    Who am I kidding???

anyways...    I'll have to think about your idea...  see if your pulling me leg..  

btw...   last time I stood in front of a 60inch screen,  I was amazed at the heat it gave off!  

I suppose you don't need a fire place?

[12AX7]

Hello NANDO

I'm afraid that your way way behind the issue here.

If there's anything to be said about the way I make things..  hard has been at the top of that list( most of the time).

I really do understand your NEED to have all kinds of data.  I understand why that data is important.   I have "fair" understanding how one would go "about" putting the data together.  I'll admitt,  the physics involved are a wee bit over my head.

But there's another side of a project like this.    If your hired to "make this happen" with a budget,  time line..  ect ect..

How many people do you employ to start?   how many different hats will be needed to fill?   how many different degrees?

Heck,  lets get back to the budget...  Did I mention there isn't one?

Nando,  the bottom line isn't so much as figuring out "what's availible to determine size and scope.   It's more an issue of..  "this is what I have on hand, and this is what I'm currently planning on trying"    and if I'm man enough at the time..  I'VE been very impressed with others..    To say "this is what I did,  this is what happend...  this is what I screwed up"

So..    either you can get behind me and help... or.. if you'd rather..   give me a good  kick.

oh,   did I say Gotlovs?   I think it's Gorlov.

Thats up to you!

Thanks for any and all input!

(unless your planning on shoving me into the drink!)

[oztules]

Can't say I can see it working in that stream, but what the hell it looks good anyway

..................oztules

[12AX7]

Morning Ozutles!

just waking up..   just the start of my fist cup of coffee...   So I'm having issues here...   trying to figure it out..  

it not working on that stream..   you mean..  getting the boss out there?

a paddle wheel...   or the pic of Mr. Gorlov and HIS helical turbine?   Yeah,  I'm sure there's at least two out of the three that's not going to happen!

enjoy your day!

[oztules]

Good morning 12ax7

Well went out to the shed last night where the big computer is, and sketched out this for you / your brother.

If he can make use of it well and good.

You can insert your Lm3875 for the output device, to get extra power.

It should match the printed circuit, but if there's any stuff ups, the circuit board and overlay are correct, all i did was reverse eng it.  Lost all my notes (read scribbles) from when I first built it.

 

The Gorlov was what I couldn't see in the stream.

Well gotta cook the boss her morning pancakes now, if you have any queries how the circuit works, I'll answer them later (after brekky). I'll porbably post a description anyway for anyone else who wants to play with this motional feedback amplifier. They are well worth the effort.

................oztules