Author Topic: Outback Cat5 bus protocol? (MX-60 <--> Mate)  (Read 11177 times)

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jnh

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Outback Cat5 bus protocol? (MX-60 <--> Mate)
« on: June 03, 2007, 09:00:54 AM »
Has anyone taken a crack at figuring out the proprietary bus signaling used by Outback's inverters, charge controllers, Mate, Hubs, etc.?


I just added a used MX-60 controller to my PV system, and would like to log its performance data to a nearby server.  The only supported logging method requires an Outback Mate control panel, which can convert the proprietary Cat5/RJ-45 bus to RS-232.  These aren't much cheaper than what I paid for the MX-60 itself, though, and hard to justify for such a small system, especially with no Outback inverter to take advantage of other Mate functions.  Plus, the Mate would be one more unneeded parasitic load, however small (server has to stay up for other reasons, so its power's already accounted for...)


Cutting up an Ethernet cable and attaching one end to the MX-60's "MATE" port, I found


 - +23V on Pins 1&2 (Orange/Orange-White pair on a 568A cable),

    with pin2 (solid orange) tied to battery ground.  Assuming this pair supplies

    power for the MATE panel


 - another +23V on Pins 3&6 (Green/Green-White), apparently isolated from the

   1st power feed, with no continuity to either DC terminal


 - Pins 4/5 and 7/8 (Blue and Brown pairs) appear to be idle and isolated...

   assuming these were the communication lines (one pair TX, one RX, possibly

   current loops or opti-isolated?), I watched for signals on a scope at either

   pair, but never saw any.  I didn't attach the scope probe's ground,

   though, not wanting to risk damage to the port, since DC- was bonded to house

   ground... so, this may not have been a valid test.


If the communication lines are truly as quiet as they seem, perhaps the MX-60 never sends anything until it sees an initialization sequence from a Mate or Hub?


Could anyone with an Outback Mate, paired with an MX *or* inverter (both use the same comm bus) take a peek at the back-and-forth electrical signaling?  If I had some clues on that, and could get the MX-60 to start sending periodic data frames, as it apparently does to a MATE, setting up a microcontroller to decode the raw information shouldn't be too hard.  At this point, though, I don't even know which pair to watch for signals.


Would ask about this on Outback's forums, but they'd probably tell me to just buy the Mate and be done with it... was hoping unsupported hardware hacks might be looked on more favorably here ;)


As a fallback option, some shunts, voltage dividers and A/D's in front of the MX-60's DC inputs would probably do the job, but that seems so wasteful and redundant, when all the intrumentation's already built in.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 09:00:54 AM by (unknown) »

drdongle

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Re: Outback Cat5 bus protocol?
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2007, 06:48:26 PM »
From your description I would suspect that the com port uses a dual 20 Ma loop, one for transmitting and one for receiving. 20 Ma loop signaling is a common format in industrial applications and used instead of RS232 for long distance transmission as it is more immune to RFI. Fortunately 20 Ma loop is easlly converted to RS232, commercially manufactured converters are available from Black Box, B&B Electronics, Digi, and other companies, I would think that some of the hobby electronics sites would have schematics as well.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 06:48:26 PM by (unknown) »

jnh

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Re: Outback Cat5 bus protocol?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2007, 08:55:49 PM »
You're probably right about the current loop, but after trying several things (pulse transformer across each pair, hooking up an old DEC VT240 that has an async current-loop port of its own...) I still couldn't get the MX-60 to send any data at all.  It may just remain silent & passive until properly initialized from the Mate.


I ended up just using a Dallas DS2450 A/D converter, feeding it battery & PV voltages through a divider, and the voltage delta between +Vbat and the top of the MX-60's shunt (which had to be boosted a little first, by an LM324 set up as a differential instrumentation amp... this isn't the best op-amp around, and needs its +Vcc a bit higher than what's being measured, for which that +23V Mate supply pin came in handy..)


A bit of a kludge, but added power consumption is just a few mA, and the 4th DS2450 input is still open for measuring something else.

« Last Edit: June 09, 2007, 08:55:49 PM by (unknown) »

heybobc

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Re: Outback Cat5 bus protocol? (MX-60 <--> Mate)
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2015, 10:32:53 AM »
Looks like I'm late to the party here, but if anyone is still interested in this topic, I may have some light to shed on it.

boB

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Re: Outback Cat5 bus protocol? (MX-60 <--> Mate)
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2015, 10:31:23 PM »
Heybobc, I'd love to hear what you've found.

I think it's going to be hard for anybody to figure out without hooking up a Mate of some sort.
(i.e. jnh,  you are getting warm on that one !)

hint...  It's not a current loop.

boB

heybobc

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Re: Outback Cat5 bus protocol? (MX-60 <--> Mate)
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2015, 11:16:58 AM »
Some background: I've got a system at home based on a FlexPower assembly, with FX, FM, DC, Mate, and Hub. I decided to build a very small (read: cheap) system at my camp, which has an Outback FX. To program the FX and monitor it, I've been borrowing the Mate from home. I just haven't been able to bring myself to spend >$200 for another Mate, but moving my one Mate several times a year is a pain.

So, I poked around to see if I could talk directly to the FX. At this point I've got a good idea how to do it, and am in the process of building a PCB that interfaces from the FX to a Raspberry Pi. I figure about $50 for the PCB, and $40 for the Pi, and I have a computer control/monitor for the FX for under $100. I'm about a month away from proof-of-concept.

As far as the gory technical details, I've started typing up a document. Since this endeavor isn't sanctioned by Outback, I won't post it online. But I can email it to you. Of course it will always be a work-in-progress.

Frugality is the mother of invention!
Bob


dgd

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Re: Outback Cat5 bus protocol? (MX-60 <--> Mate)
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2015, 10:52:29 PM »
Hi Heybobc,

Thanks for emailing your doc file to me.
On first glance through it this looks like a bi-directional RS485 in a star configuration network with the
Outback  hub being an rs485 hub.
I need to look at everything a bit closer to confirm this

The communications protocol also sure looks like a version of Modbus RTU.
Since the doc refers to reading/writing single registers and a read multiple registers (Modbus READ_HOLDING_REGISTERS even using the same command code of 4).

Then again this would not surprise me - was it not boB who designed this?

dgd
Off grid since 4/2000
Midnite C150,C250,Clipper, 2.8Kw PV, 2Kw turbine,1025Ah24v FLA (1999), SW3024E (1997), 3q16 48v300Ah LiFeYPO4 6Kw OzInverter, Arduino DUE web monitor.

kjartani

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Re: Outback Cat5 bus protocol? (MX-60 <--> Mate)
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2015, 01:44:01 PM »
Hello dgd.
Im working on a modbus master with web server.
Planned to use arduino due with ethernet shield and 4-wire rs485 interface.
Im using an Outback 60 and will try to divert unused energy for heating purposes.

To you dgd could you please send the docs you received. That would really help.

Regards
Kjartan

dgd

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Re: Outback Cat5 bus protocol? (MX-60 <--> Mate)
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2015, 06:09:04 AM »
Kjartan,

ok, will forward the info I received from heybobc.
You can see all the Arduino modbus master and web server sketches, web pages etc plus hardware info that I put together for a Midnite Classic controller at
http://midnitesolar.com/Forum/index.php?board=35.0
I have version of this with modbus register map for MS mppt controllers.
Just waiting on an FM60 to become available from a site upgrade to an MN Classic so I can try to get the DUE web server talking to the FM60

dgd
Off grid since 4/2000
Midnite C150,C250,Clipper, 2.8Kw PV, 2Kw turbine,1025Ah24v FLA (1999), SW3024E (1997), 3q16 48v300Ah LiFeYPO4 6Kw OzInverter, Arduino DUE web monitor.

Eraser3000

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Re: Outback Cat5 bus protocol? (MX-60 <--> Mate)
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2015, 09:07:03 PM »
Serial Settings
HUB

First Mate Port


Pin 3  = Transmit Data (to chargers from MATE)
Pin 6 = Receive Data (from chargers to MATE)

Baud Rate is 9600

Bits = 9
Parity = None
Bit Order is LSB






http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-66MgvIgvuOM/Vk_mQuIKQCI/AAAAAAAAAOI/C_mh6QndGdo/s320/voltages.jpg

Voltages:
Minimum = 0
Maximum = -23.3V
RS232 Port could possible work.

Eraser3000

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Re: Outback Cat5 bus protocol? (MX-60 <--> Mate)
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2015, 09:10:14 PM »
RS232 9N1 9600 Baud

Reply back from MATE
and what I've found so far.

a:103  The Hub Port  Port 1 = 101, Port 2 = 102, ETC
b:085  Tenth of Amps Out Stored in Right Digit(.5amps)
c:080
d:081  Whole Amps Out Stored in Right Digit (1 amp)
e:000
f:000
g:03F
h:000 = 0 =Sleeping(Not Charging), 1 = Float, 2 = Bulk, 3 = Absorb
i:000
j:000
k:000 = Volts Out Overflow.  If 1 Then 255 Plus Next Byte
l:0FF  =  25.5 Volts
m:000 = Volts In Overflow. If 1 Then 255 Plus Next Byte
n:0FF   = Volts In =25.5 Volts  in decimal
o:003
p:081
Note: Picture was taken on a different capture.

Eraser3000

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Re: Outback Cat5 bus protocol? (MX-60 <--> Mate)
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2015, 11:40:15 PM »
Update: the j byte = KWHs

Eraser3000

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Re: Outback Cat5 bus protocol? (MX-60 <--> Mate)
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2015, 08:50:06 PM »
Well looking at what I found, I guess that is all I need.  So, I'm moving on.  If anyone needs anything else while its still convenient let me know.

photovoltaic

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Re: Outback Cat5 bus protocol? (MX-60 <--> Mate)
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2016, 11:48:21 AM »
I just came across this yesterday so thought I would share it in case it is helpful or not already known.
https://hackaday.io/project/7624-outback-mate-reverse-engineering

boB

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Re: Outback Cat5 bus protocol? (MX-60 <--> Mate)
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2016, 01:21:07 PM »
I just came across this yesterday so thought I would share it in case it is helpful or not already known.
https://hackaday.io/project/7624-outback-mate-reverse-engineering

This guy did a pretty nice job  there !  As far as I know, now two ppl have done this including Eraser3000,
that is unless Eraser3000 and the guy on Hackaday are one and the same ?  Good RE work !

It's only been over 12+ years for anyone to figure it out I think.

:)

dgd

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Re: Outback Cat5 bus protocol? (MX-60 <--> Mate)
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2016, 05:34:34 PM »

 t's only been over 12+ years for anyone to figure it out I think.

:)

Hmmmm,  since it was apparently you who designed the MX60 and probably did all the firmware programming then why not just simply tell us all what  the serial port hardware and software details are? (packet details, handshaking etc)
After all its a 12+ year old product, out of production now for 8 or more years and its hard to imagine any non disclosure agreement would still be valid.

Despite all the requests for tech info, stretching back to 2005 on the Outback power forum, OB has totally ignored these requests, IMHO, maybe believing that someone with rudimentary programming skills could produce an open source product that would dent OB's sales of overpriced Mate and other expensive add-ons

dgd

Off grid since 4/2000
Midnite C150,C250,Clipper, 2.8Kw PV, 2Kw turbine,1025Ah24v FLA (1999), SW3024E (1997), 3q16 48v300Ah LiFeYPO4 6Kw OzInverter, Arduino DUE web monitor.

boB

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Re: Outback Cat5 bus protocol? (MX-60 <--> Mate)
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2016, 02:04:57 AM »

 t's only been over 12+ years for anyone to figure it out I think.

:)

Hmmmm,  since it was apparently you who designed the MX60 and probably did all the firmware programming then why not just simply tell us all what  the serial port hardware and software details are? (packet details, handshaking etc)

dgd


Yeah, I wanted to but I felt it wouldn't be right...  I think their new stuff works the same way

Besides that, the hardware isn't exactly standard AND PCs won't have a 9 bit uart anyway.

And it was kind of entertaining to read all the "hacker's" assumptions on what kind of system they thought it was, even
without ever hooking up a scope to it OR having a mate connected to make it respond to a command. 
 Not on this forum though.  The folks here are much more technical than most.

boB