Author Topic: Restoring an old Jacobs 1800 Watt (Read 51093 times)

Tom Sullivan · « **on:** July 14, 2010, 08:19:16 AM »

My retired electrical engineer buddy, Larry, has offered me a rebuilt 1800 watt Jacobs to replace my Breezy 5.5 (for sale by the way). I'm familiar with the other changes required on my current system to go to DC, so that's not an issue. I intend to use this unit until I can get time to build a 17' or 20' axial flow PM machine. The unit needs new blades (looks pretty easy compared to the eleven footers I built a year ago). What I need is some information, pictures, or specs on the tail. There is no tail, not even a damaged one, to look at. I would like to keep the appearance of the unit as close to original as possible.
I read an article recently (in the past year or so) about a restored unit in a magazine. I thought it was in Home Power or Mother Earth News, but I poured over every one of the last two years worth last night and could not find the article. If someone remembers seeing that article and can give me some direction, that would be great too. Bottom line, I need some type of picture or diagram of the complete tail assembly if I am to replicate the original tail.

Thanks in advance,

Tom Sullivan

DanB · « **Reply #1 on:** July 14, 2010, 09:56:41 AM »

Hi Tom - I cannot be of much help here, except to say that I do know somebody who has replacement blades (new ones and possibly used ones) and probably any other parts you might need for that machine.
If you're interested in that, drop me an email and I'll put him in touch with you. danb at otherpower.com

Harold in CR · « **Reply #2 on:** July 14, 2010, 02:43:29 PM »

Tom
Go to Google and type in Jacobs 1800 watt Wind Turbine

When the found links page comes up, go up to the TOP of the Google page and click on images. Whaa La, Bob's yer Uncle.

Tom Sullivan · « **Reply #3 on:** July 14, 2010, 05:07:38 PM »

Thanks for the tip on pictures, but none of them are close enough detail to base a replica tail on. I am really bummed I can't find the article I read recently about a rebuild project.

Tom S.

dnix71 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 14, 2010, 05:51:01 PM »

Here and here: http://www.power-talk.net/jacobs-wind-turbine.html http://www.windturbine.net/
You need to do some emailing. The current batch, since 1986 have spring loaded dual vane tails and hydraulic self-feathering blades and gear reduction for lower cut in.

That sounds like more than home-brew. Exactly who made your turbine will make all the difference. The current maker [2nd link] has only been around since 1986, but I would start with them.

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2008/07/finding-a-second-life-for-retired-wind-turbines-52888 also here there is a company that specializes in buying and upgrading used turbines like the Jacob, esp. the batch made since 1986.

Tom Sullivan · « **Reply #5 on:** July 14, 2010, 11:23:54 PM »

I bought the online membership to Home Power tonight to look at some older articles, and found the one I remembered (Feb/Mar 2008). That must be the only edition I didn't have. Good pictures, and the owner is in Wisconsin; can't be too far from me.

Thanks for the feedback!!

Tom S.

B529 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 15, 2010, 09:00:16 PM »

Tom,

I'll be glad to help you. I've rebuilt a few Jacobs. It's a lot of work and time to get one of these flying again. I know that machine inside and out. It's a sweet machine.

I'm in the process of building a tail for another one. Will be welding it up in the next couple weeks.

I have a few spare parts for the "Short Case" 1800 watt generator.

Which governor? fly-ball or blade actuated?

What is your battery voltage?

What do you have for a tower?

Kevin

B529 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 15, 2010, 09:16:25 PM »

Quote from: DanB on July 14, 2010, 09:56:41 AM

Hi Tom - I cannot be of much help here, except to say that I do know somebody who has replacement blades (new ones and possibly used ones) and probably any other parts you might need for that machine.
If you're interested in that, drop me an email and I'll put him in touch with you. danb at otherpower.com

DanB,

do you know if your contact has a complete blade actuated governor? I have everything to complete another machine except the governor.

Kevin

Tom Sullivan · « **Reply #8 on:** July 16, 2010, 12:17:09 AM »

Kevin,
My friend Larry, a retired electrical engineer, actually owns the Jacobs. He rebuilt the generator and wants to see it fly. I think he said it was a 32 volt unit, capable of 40 volts. The governor is the fly-ball version. As far as a tower, that's the one thing I got right the first go around. It's a double guyed (5/8" cable), 5 truss, 140' tilt tower of my own design, with a 55' trussed and guyed gin pole, and a 10 ton winch running through 2 snatch block pulleys for the tilt function. It can be seen on Gary Reysa's site under wind power at www.builditsolar.com .
I would like to see what you are doing to replicate the tail structure. I don't think I'm interested in reconstructing the chain activated "tail furling system" unless someone can convince me it's necessary.
Just curious, what method are you using to deal with the wiring to the turbine from the tower wiring? Slip ring or the typical Other Power method of periodically unraveling the wiring at the base? Having used a slip ring for the last two years, I like that option better. My guy cable anchors on the tower pass through the tower tubing, creating an x inside the tower (in two locations too); not very conducive to my feed wiring twisting up inside the tower.

Tom S.

B529 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 16, 2010, 08:02:49 AM »

Tom,

Battery voltage? Suggest 24, if you don't have a battery bank yet.

I use slip rings.

How will you stop the turbine w/o the furling tail?

Kevin

Tom Sullivan · « **Reply #10 on:** July 16, 2010, 07:35:25 PM »

Still in the budgeting stage, so all decisions not made yet (deciding on voltage). I want to see what this is going to cost to get it on line with all the changes I will need to do. I thought my electrical guru had an option to stop the tubine without an adjustable tail, as he was suggesting a fixed one. I will have to go back and discuss that with him.

Tom

Tom Sullivan · « **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2010, 08:45:04 AM »

I found a local Jacobs enthusiast that had a bunch of Jacobs paperwork and literature. He had a bunch of newsletters from back in the 1980's about PV and Wind power, where Mick S. was a regular contributor. There were also numerous pieces published by Jacobs, including an owners manual for the 1800 and 2500 watt units. The manual goes through every aspect of the wind turbine, including tower erection, turbine assembly, wiring, testing and troubleshooting. Pretty cool.
Kevin, any chance you have some closeup pictures of the tail assembly? I have all 3 blades laminated, and one roughed in. It took me a few hours to "map" the old blades, setting up seven "station templates" to properly reproduce the airfoil. They looked pretty basic until I "mapped" them. Should finish the blades in the next couple days and I would like to start on the tail.

Tom Sullivan

dlenox · « **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2010, 11:37:10 AM »

Tom,

I did some hunting and found a .pdf that shows details of the Jacobs dual fold tail assembly.

It can be found at: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4518312.pdf

Good luck and keep us updated with your progress!

Dan Lenox

Tom Sullivan · « **Reply #13 on:** July 20, 2010, 02:18:28 PM »

Dan,

Thanks a million for finding the link. I was able to print it and this will be a tremendous resource for reconstructing the tail.

Tom

dlenox · « **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2010, 02:24:51 PM »

Tom,

You are welcome!

Actually I have been looking myself for quite a while to find that information as well, it contains some pretty detailed information about the design and operation of the tail, and looked to be exactly what you were asking for. So hopefully it will be an asset in getting your Jacobs back into service.

Dan Lenox

B529 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 20, 2010, 11:19:51 PM »

Quote from: dlenox on July 20, 2010, 11:37:10 AM

Tom,

I did some hunting and found a .pdf that shows details of the Jacobs dual fold tail assembly.

It can be found at: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4518312.pdf

Good luck and keep us updated with your progress!

Dan Lenox

Dan,

this is the tail design for the grid-tied Jacobs generator not the Pre-REA DC Jacobs. As I build a new tail I'll snap some pictures and give dimensions. I'm starting on it this weekend.

Kevin

Tom Sullivan · « **Reply #16 on:** July 21, 2010, 08:05:56 AM »

Kevin & Dan,

After getting into the drawing pretty seriously last night, I realized this tail was definitely more complicated than the original. I went back to the first page of the info and spotted this is a 1980's patent. This tail design allows for furling left and right, for wind gusts and excessive wind speed. The patent description noted the unit will continue to generate in the partially furled modes. A pretty nice system, but I want to replicate the original design (which appears will be substantially less work too).

Kevin, If you are willing to share details of the tail you are building I would really appreciate it. I've obtained enough decent pictures I could probably fabricate it now, but I see no sense in doing that if another Jacobs Wind Turbine owner has all the original specs and design features figured out already. Feel free to email me at; toms1 "at" chartermi.net . Meanwhile I'll work on finishing blades and on to bearing and slip ring work until getting more detailed info on the tail.

Thanks,

Tom Sullivan

dlenox · « **Reply #17 on:** July 21, 2010, 09:24:37 AM »

Quote from: B529 on July 20, 2010, 11:19:51 PM

Dan,

this is the tail design for the grid-tied Jacobs generator not the Pre-REA DC Jacobs. As I build a new tail I'll snap some pictures and give dimensions. I'm starting on it this weekend.

Kevin

Kevin,

Yes I realized that this was a very early model/design for the tail, this earlier one is pretty complicated.. I have pictures of the newer/simplified one as well but still hunting for the patent/detail information.

Chris Olson has been working with his 'power controller' which is loosely based on this newer Jacobs design and is quite robust and yet simple in design. He has put up the detailed information on how to build one, here is the posting on FieldLines: http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,143710.30.html

The 'newer' style Jacobs is a lot simpler. Here is a picture of the back side of the main housing showing the 2 tail mounts (on the left side) and the spring/device mount on the opposite side:

Here is a picture that shows the turbine, but it is rather small and does not show the details, but if you look closely you can see what I am referring to:

And here is one from the opposite side:

Dan Lenox

ginger48 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 21, 2010, 06:37:26 PM »

Quote from: dlenox on July 20, 2010, 11:37:10 AM

Tom,

I did some hunting and found a .pdf that shows details of the Jacobs dual fold tail assembly.

It can be found at: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4518312.pdf

Good luck and keep us updated with your progress!

Dan Lenox

Here's the patent for the early 1930's generator and tail. Although it changed somewhat over the next 20 years, it'll give you a starting point.

http://news.google.com/patents?id=rT9iAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

B529 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 21, 2010, 08:18:00 PM »

This should clear things up for ya' Tom.

The tail on the bottom is from a late 70' to early 80's grid-tied Jacobs. Notice the double hoop/stops, this tail was not used to furl the machine, no grid-tied machine used a side furling tail. A disc brake was used to stop the machine. The grid-tied tail has not really changed much over the years.

The tail on top is from a PRE-REA DC Jacobs direct drive Jacobs from the 40's?. The tail had a few changes over the years, length of the tails ranged from 8-10ft. The vane changed just once I believe. The pictured tail is a 8ft, the length I suggest building.

The broken hoop on the DC Jacobs tail was somewhat common point of failure, probably a unmaintained furling cable failed.

Tom Sullivan · « **Reply #20 on:** July 21, 2010, 10:18:08 PM »

Kevin,

Awesome!!!! Looks pretty straight forward. Your pictures show two options for tail logos too. I want the finished generator looking as authentic as possible. Thanks for taking the time to get this for me!!!

Tom

Tom Sullivan · « **Reply #21 on:** July 21, 2010, 10:22:57 PM »

Thanks for the patent link. 1935; pretty neat. That will be useful too for the restoration.

I'll keep everyone posted on the progress!!

Tom

ginger48 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 22, 2010, 06:17:30 PM »

Here's patents I found by Jacobs that you might find interesting, I did.

Patent #1,793,321 filed by Joe Jacobs, brother of Marcellus L. Jacobs, in 1929 is very interesting. It's very similar in design to the current model Jacobs with a right angle gearbox, mechanical brake for shutting the machine down, generator mounted inside the tower, and a fixed tail.

The current model isn't the latest design. It's really the first.

http://news.google.com/patents?id=PeFEAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=1,793,321&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

Patent #1,930,390 filed by Joe Jacobs in 1932. This is similar to the generators produced through the 1950's.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=N-dKAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=1930390&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

Patent #2.055,012 filed by Joe Jacobs in 1935. This is similar to #1,930,390 above.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=rT9iAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

The seldom seen twin generator Des. #114,886 filed by Joe Jacobs in 1938
http://news.google.com/patents?id=-n9yAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=twin+generator+jacobs&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1#v=onepage&q=twin%20generator%20jacobs&f=false

Blade actuated governor. Patent #2,464,234 filed by Joe Jacobs in 1943.
http://news.google.com/patents?id=nxJFAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Blade actuated governor. Patent #2,505,969 filed by M.L. Jacobs in 1946. This is similar to #2,464,234. http://www.google.com/patents?id=JCZhAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=2,505,969&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

Patent #2,516,576 filed by Charles R. Jacobs of California in 1947. This is an interesting patent for a different type governor. It was filed by Williamson & Williamson, the same attorneys Joe and Marcellus Jacobs used and the drawings show a Jacobs generator, tower, and tail. Was Charles related to Joe and Marcellus?
http://news.google.com/patents?id=qq1QAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

B529 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 22, 2010, 09:50:50 PM »

Interesting links to the patents.

I've seen and touched a lot of old Jacobs stuff over the years. Never came across any of these patent designs on a machine. The fly-ball and blade actuated governors are kind of close, just kind of.

B529 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 23, 2010, 04:30:39 PM »

Tom,
started to build another tail this AM.

2 pcs- 1/2x1 1/2x8 flat stock, 11/16 hole drilled centered on one end. Bend at about 4" to match angle of angle iron, keeping the hole end parallel to the hinge pin flat.

2 pcs-1/8x1 1/2x96 angle comes to a point.

This tail is for a long case, the lower hinge pin on your short case is part of the saddle and the lower pin is going to be lower than mine. You might make the lower angle iron piece just slightly longer to keep the tail vane center on the same plane as the shaft, hope that makes sense.

The picture of the DC tail vain is the proper wording/lettering style.

Here's what I came up with for the lower bearing/brush holder. Triangle 3/8 stock, schedule 40 5" pipe welded to it. Turned down the flange to slip fit into the pipe. Tapped 1/4-20 for the brush holder. I removed a lot of material off of the flange, to me it is worth it, I like that the flange bearing allows for slight misalignment and it's EZ to fabricate. I have no doubt the 2 1/4 ID bearing will handle the load. The original was a bronze bushing pressed into a casting.

Looking at what you are using for a tower, pipe, it's going to take some head scratching to come up with a way to fabricate a lower bearing/brush holder that is accessible. What's the diameter of your pipe?

How are you going to bore the shaft holes in your blades?

Kevin

Tom Sullivan · « **Reply #25 on:** July 23, 2010, 10:32:46 PM »

Kevin,

Thanks for the very good detail. I was wondering what size the tail strut angles were. Not sure which tail art is the "DC" one?

As far as the bearing/slip ring; I haven't designed it yet but will probably build a "seal capable" rectangular box with an adapter to bolt to my tower at the bottom, and a saddle at the top to bolt to the bottom of the motor. The bearing I made for the Breezy was really nice, but I hate to cut it off, as I hope the sell the unit. A picture of the slip ring and bearing assy for the Breezy can be seen on Gary Reysa's site at http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Wind/TomTurbine/TurbineAssembly.htm .

To drill the blades, I'm going to make a saddle arrangement, like I used for closing the wings on my airplane, that the blades can sit in on a steel welding table. I have a large electric mag drill we use for drilling truck frames in my fab shop of my dealership. I'll "magnetically fix" it to table and adjust the saddles until they align the old blade holes perfectly with the drill. I'll then place the new blades in the fixtures and drill them. That drill has a feed on it much like a drill press, but in this instance it will act like a horizontal drill press without the limitations of a stand in the way.

Keep the info and pictures coming!!

Tom

B529 · « **Reply #26 on:** July 24, 2010, 10:15:12 AM »

Tom,

The top tail is the proper Jacobs lettering.

The angle of the tail is about 3.5 degrees, didn't measure before bending the 1/2 stock, trial and error bending.

Let me know if you want higher resolution pictures of anything.

Based on your previous projects, I can probably send you drawings on a bar napkin in crayon to get you going.

Kevin

Tom Sullivan · « **Reply #27 on:** July 24, 2010, 06:44:12 PM »

Got me on the tail angle. Are we talking an upward rake of the tail structure by 3.5 degrees as it comes off the generator?

Finished roughing in the blades today. I laminated them for stability, even though they are pretty small. I always have better luck with wood staying like I finished it when it's laminated.

Here's a few photos of the blade work (first time posting photos on this site, for a computer dunce, hope it works).

Tom

clintonbriley · « **Reply #28 on:** July 24, 2010, 09:12:23 PM »

Nice work on the blades Tom, can you post a pic of the metal hardware by itself? I'm
curious as to how they are constructed.
Clint

Tom Sullivan · « **Reply #29 on:** July 24, 2010, 10:36:58 PM »

Clint,

They are cast aluminum, both the large bracket and the small one. The small one mounts on the opposite side of the blade as the large one, with through bolts. I believe that bracket is to help support the wooden blade at the end of the shaft (up the blade about 6"-7").

I just found pictures of the build process on the 10 footers I built for the Breezy a year and a half ago (the ones that were to much for the machine without other major mods like the tail and who knows what else). I'll post them under the Breezy thread for any one interested.

Tom

clintonbriley · « **Reply #30 on:** July 25, 2010, 11:06:51 AM »

I searched online for a diagram for the fly-ball type of jacobs governor without much luck. Does the
flyball pitch the blades to feather or to stall to limit the power delivered to the generator in higher winds?
Does anyone have link to a flyball schematic or patent?
Clint

kurt · « **Reply #31 on:** July 25, 2010, 04:33:28 PM »

http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/Variable-Pitch

ginger48 · « **Reply #32 on:** July 25, 2010, 06:22:26 PM »

http://www.google.com/patents?id=N-dKAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=1930390&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

This is the flyball governor as produced by Jacobs with the exception of dashpot #54 in the diagram. #54 was not used.

News:

Author Topic: Restoring an old Jacobs 1800 Watt (Read 51093 times)