Author Topic: Ni-Fe battery  (Read 32814 times)

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independent

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2011, 01:06:57 PM »
The info is all here in the archives, as well as in homepower series of articles from the 90's which discuss these and wet cell NiCds. Lithium Hydroxide is added to counteract the carbonation of the electrolyte and also possibly damage to the plates. Nickel based cells can be ruined if left in the open air, distilled water is a secondary option if electrolyte is unavailable. You will not see any improvement with added LiOH but longevity

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2011, 08:04:18 PM »
I had left the forum here because a number of folk really believed I was telling a tall story when I spoke of NiFe cells.

Huh?

The wonderful properties of NiFe cells (phenomenally long life, near immunity to electrical abuse, etc.) are well known, especially on this board.  Ditto the downsides (low availability, expense, lower efficiency compared to other chemistries, etc.) which,while present, are minor.

What made you think we didn't believe you?

thirteen

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2011, 08:29:46 PM »
John
Do you have a 48v system or 24v
My hydro will be about 7 months long except if it freezes real hard I get temps around -30  for about 2 months at times
I only have around 38 ft head and at low water 25 gpm so I am limeted on my output. It's all workable but finding the right combo does make it interesting. tanks for the info. Thirteen
MntMnROY 13

Rabrsniver

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2011, 09:01:15 PM »
Thirteen,

My system is 24V. I too have only winter hydro, although it doesn't get as cold. My head is about 40,' and my best flow is about 140 gpm. My penstock is a 200' run of 3" PVC, and its about 80' from the turgo to the battery room. The generator is a one horse GE ECM.

Unfortunately it is all fed by rain runoff, so unless its really pouring I don't get steady power, but I'll take all I can get.

John

thirteen

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2011, 10:47:20 PM »
my pen stock will be 4 in  around 730 ft with the power shed about 600 ft back up the creek beside the house from the altinator my best flow is about 3-4 ft wide and 3-4 deep but that is spring runoff good for about 2 months give ot take. I hope to get it installed late this summer or it will be in July of 2012. Retirement time hopefully.
MntMnROY 13

nifeman

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2012, 01:58:24 PM »
From the picture you have posted, these are  NICKEL CADMIUM  cells and NOT nickel iron cells.

Many of these old cells have NIFE written on the cell and then people they think they are nickel iron cells. After all, NiFe is the chemistry term for nickel iron. Ni = nickel Fe = iron

The company that most likely made these nickel cadmium cells was a company called SAFT NIFE. I have no clue why they threw in NIFE because as far as I know SAFT never manufactured nickel iron cells. Now the company is just called SAFE.

There is a 90% chance the cells you have are JUNK. The only way to know is take a few cells, get new electrolyte and TEST the, I personally would not waste my time.

Mary B

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2012, 01:37:10 PM »
I remember visiting the telephone company physical plant back in the early 70's and their battery room had these huge lead acid cells in glass jars. Open tops and one guys job was to keep them topped up with water.

AzSun

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2012, 02:14:05 PM »
I bought a set of Edison NiFe batteries from a rancher in Nebraska ~ 1978. He told me he bought them used in the 1940's from Europe. I intended to charge them with a wind powered generator but ended up using a different set of Edisons from another source. When I moved from Pennsylvania to Arizona, I may have drained them for the move but don't recall for sure. They sat on a shelf until last fall when I decided to try them out using solar panels as a charge source. No electrolyte was visible by looking down the fill hole. They were rinsed until clear and refilled with new electrolyte. Each one was charged individually with a regulated power source and load tested with a home made set of load resistors. The new rating on this set is 375 AH. They are now over 75 years old. Initial testing revealed they currently have similar characteristics of a ChangHong NF 100-S which is rated at 100 AH. They have been in service for nearly 5 months now. I will be load testing the bank soon to see what the performance is having been through many charge/discharge cycles.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 02:24:43 PM by AzSun »

PeterDe

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2012, 05:24:05 PM »
If anyone is interested here is the list that I have for Edison cells.

The old Edison Nickel Iron cells only had a year of manufacture code, listed below.

1922 – K ; 23 – L ; 24 – M ; 25 – N ; 26 – P ; 27 – R ; 28 – T ; 29 – W ; 30 – X ; 31 – Y ;

1932 – AA ; 33 – BB, 34 – CC ; 35 – DD ; 36 – EE ; 37 – FF; 38 – GG; 39 – HH; 40 – JJ; 41 – KK

1942 – LL; 43 – MM; 45 – RR; 46 – TT; 47 – WW- 48 – XX; 49 – YY; 50 – AB; 51 – AC; 52 – AD

1953 - AE; 54 – AF; 55 – AG; 56 – AH; 57 – AJ; 58 – AK; 59 – AL; 60 – AM; 61 – AN; 62 – AP;

1963 – AR; 64 – AT; 65 – AW; 66 – AX; 67 – AY; 68 – BA; 69 – BC; 70 - BF


PeterDe

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2012, 05:35:23 PM »
AZSun.  I would be very interested in following your load testing of those batteries as I was given some 80+ year old Edisons and was able to get every cell to perform.  Of course they perform at a much lower rate than they would have originally, but I used the 1% deration factor that applies for Nickel Cadmium ones, and the cells made over the 5 hours they were rated for.  I presented that paper at Battcon a couple years ago and then di anothe paper at Intelec in Amsterdam last year on the same subject.

You did a grat job on cleaning them up.

AzSun

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2012, 06:03:41 PM »
Thanks for posting the date codes. The cells in the photo all have "A10" as as a serial # prefix. One source of information stated the cells with serrated pole insulators were manufactured before 1936. This correlates with what the rancher told me about their age. I previously tested some Edison cells manufactured in 1960 as indicated by the tag on the wooden crate. The prefix is "B4H" They were all at 90 - 100 % of rated capacity. My spring project is to test the last type I have. They are "C6" serial number prefix. I am not sure how old they are but have hex shaped pole insulators suggesting a manufature date after 1936.

Thanks   
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 06:23:00 PM by AzSun »

PeterDe

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2012, 06:09:35 AM »
AzSun.  Most of the documentation that I used when I was experimenting with my Edison cells I was able to find on the internet.  The original Edison Alkaline Storage Battery manual lists all of the models with their specifications, etc. 

As you know the A10 is the model.  If there is a H following that is the taller cel in the AH model.  There is also a W which means a wider cell in that same AH range but I ahve never seen one.

nifeman

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2012, 05:44:40 PM »
Azsun,

I agree with Peter, you did a great job on cleaning the cells up but hope you did not take the nickel plating off! After all, all of the original nickel iron cells where nickel plated steal. That is why they look so shiny and also look like SS cases as nickel is the main ingredient in SS.

If your cells are stamped A10 then those cells are rated at 375 Ah at a C/5 rate. That means you can charge and discharge at a rate of 75 Ah per hour. Most people with off grid systems usually cannot charge their battery bank at a C/5 rate for very long as PV arrays peak and then decline and only have say a peak 75 Ah rate for a very short duration.

Have you actually done that to a whole battery bank or just individual cells? Your C6 cells are rated at 337 1/2 Ah. Who did you establish Ah capacity? I assume you used an Ah meter or did you do just a pencil test with a log?

AzSun

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2012, 10:47:26 AM »
Load test update: Ten A10 cells were randomly selected from a set of 26. After the electrolyte was changed, they were charged and discharged individually using fixed load resistors fabricated out of Nichrome wire. The charger I used was constructed using a microwave transformer with a rewound secondary. The primary was fed by a Variac auto transformer.
While capable of supplying 75 amps charge rate, the bridge rectifier heat sinks were getting too hot. While not precise, this is the methodology used. Each cell was charge at a rate between 25 and 35 amps depending on how hot my garage was. In the summer it could approach 105F. This rate was held until the voltage reached 1.650. The voltage was held at that rate by manually controlling the Variac. This continued until the current would fall no further. The end charge rate was 5 to 14 amps depending on which cell it was. Each cell was discharged at 20, 15, 10, and 5 amp rates until the voltage per cell was 1.10
This was monitored by a data logger. At ten amps, the discharge time was 6 hours for the weakest cell and 12 hours for the strongest. Most of them ran in the 7-9 hour range. I recently discharged them several times as a bank of 10 cells using a new load resistor. I was shooting for a nominal 10 amp load but ran out of wire so it ended up being around 10.75 amps. The bank was charged by solar panels at a maximum rate of 11 amps. This continued until the bank was at 16.5 volts for at least a couple of hours. The discharge time was between 7 and 7:45 on all tests. They would have gone longer but the weakest cell was at 0.348 volts at this time. The strongest cell was still at 1.246.  Five of them were still above 1.200.  In response to Peter's question, supported by data not shown here, it appears that after 6 months of service the capacity of the cells remains the same as when initially charged. The theory that capacity will increase through use does not seem to be valid for this 75+ year old set. What seems to be consistent after testing 3 types of cells is the largest capacity gain is to be had through the change of the electrolyte. Nifeman, the nickel is still intact. After soaking the esbaline off with kerosene, they were lightly cleaned with stainless steel wool. Capacity was established using data from the 5 amp test. All cells ran between 16 and 22 hours @ 5 amps. Most of them were a little above 18 hours.  I also have a set of B4H cells that were made in 1961. They all tested at 90-100 % of original capacity using original published charge and discharge values from an Edison manual. The next project is to select 10 C6 units of unknown age and see what their performance is.           

PeterDe

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2012, 12:17:44 PM »
AzSun;  I agree that when the cells are as old as the ones you and I are working with, if there ever was an increase in capacity it was when they were new.

with lead acid batteries it is common for the manufacturer to ship them at less than full capacity due to the costs of continued charging.  Over time as the user charges and discharges them the batteries normally will climb to over 100% of their rating, and will remain there for a number of years.

Watt

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2012, 12:20:11 AM »
Sorry if this question has come up before and please excuse but, is this the same battery you guys are referring to?  http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-NIB-NIFE-Carbonaire-SAB-Edison-Carbon-Battery-ST-22-/221024856335?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item33761ba90f&vxp=mtr

PeterDe

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2012, 01:29:15 AM »
Watt;  No that is a Carbon Air battery and if I understand them correctly, they are a primary battery and not rechargeable.  Normally they are used for low rate discharge support.

The Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) batteries that we were talking about are secondary batteries and can be discharged and recharged over and over and over. A number of us are talking about ones that were manufactured by the Thomas Edison plant in NJ, which has been long gone.  However there are other manufacturers that are presently manufacturing Ni-Fe batteries in other parts of the world.

The Edison name appears on a number of devices that are still out there.  It would be my guess that SAB NIFE has/had a right to use the Edison name on that particular product.

BillBlake

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2012, 06:37:42 PM »
Sorry if this question has come up before and please excuse but, is this the same battery you guys are referring to?  http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-NIB-NIFE-Carbonaire-SAB-Edison-Carbon-Battery-ST-22-/221024856335?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item33761ba90f&vxp=mtr

Hello Watt and Group. For the most part you have the old Edison Nickel Iron Batteries which were discontinued in the
1970's and are fairly well documented in limited ways.

Then you have what the vast majority of people buy today.

The Nickel Iron Batteries built by Changhong Batteries in China and distributed (at retail) by:

'John D'Angelo of BeUtilityFree and Brandon Williams'.

Copy and paste that above line into Google for much more detailed information.

The modern day Ni-Fe batteries seem to be involved in somewhat of an endless ball of confusion.

This can easily stop if people were on the same page and not just reading from an Ad or going by Hearsay.

Some people claim an interest in Nickel Iron Technology but things never seem to get quite nailed down.

It would be nice if they all knew what the guys building the new Ni-Fe batteries actually have to say.

Why have we not been told of this Treasure Trove of Ni-Fe info that I jokingly call: 'The Ni-Fe Gospel of Changhong"

There seems to be good strong things about the Nickel Iron Batteries however there also seems to be a tremendous
amount of misrepresentation as well. Some people may wind up getting hurt for some big money if not careful.

Changhong Batteries in China, making most of the Ni-Fe Cells sold in America today, is an excellent source of
more realistic information about the construction and true Limitations of current Ni-Fe technology.

Just add a .com after ChanghongBatteries

Then go to Products, then Nickel-Iron (Ni-Fe), then

Solar Ni-Fe cell catalogue.

Look at the Life Cycles Chart. This is AFTER Electrolyte Changes according to an actual

Changhong Ni-Fe Operator's Manual.

Then go to:  Pocket type Ni-Fe rechargeable battery

Check out the MSDS

Now we Know BeUtilityFree and Iron Edison Batteries are really only 20% Nickle.

I was lucky to get two comprehensive conversations with a Changhong PhD Battery Chemist and took good notes.
Will inject some things he said about Ni-Fe Batteries as the topics come up - as time goes bye.

Thanks for the Group.

Bill Blake

Bruce S

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2012, 09:56:17 AM »
Bill;
Care to go ahead and insert some of that conversation here ?
PeterDE and others here are very well aware of the buyer beware on such expensive equipment.
As life goes by in China, people there are beginning to ask for better standards too, just like we do, so stuff coming out of China , One Day, will be on par with the products we grew used to, until people here in the USA go used to the Wally-world cheapo stuff.

If you have good hard notes of these, than I would ask "when" you have the time put those notes to a reply, post and help the board have a good solid base of info.
BTW: Welcome to the board!
Bruce S
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jlt

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2012, 10:46:28 AM »
 I cut the top off one of my edison cells and found that the plastic separators that fit between the plates have broken and allowed the plates to short out.
        The separators are very brittle . and there is about 3/4 of an inch of black sludge in the bottom.

         I am going to try to find a plastic case to put it in  and some kind of plastic screen to put between the plates.     JLT

XeonPony

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2012, 11:29:43 AM »
Hmm try fibre glass, the real cuarse stuff, you got a chance to do some playing :D
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!

BillBlake

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2012, 12:38:33 PM »
You can write to the Changhong Batteries Tech Department on their website and ask about some of

their Ni-Fe Polypropylene separation material.

They also have some good Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Tech Tips that I don't believe have ever been put up in plain view
in any Internet Group yet.

They have people here in the USA that work directly with Changhong and get things in from China regularly.
NOT re-sellers as they call them but Direct Company personal. In fact they watch this forum.

Bill Blake

DamonHD

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #55 on: May 23, 2012, 02:46:40 PM »
Does that mean that the mods have to brush up on their Mandarin?  Xhe-xhe for the heads up!  B^>

Rgds

Damon
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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2012, 06:38:03 PM »
Gentlemen…and Ladies

   I've been following this thread since it and the other thread on the 2 NiFe manufactures started with some interest. I've been living off grid in the Arizona Desert for 11 years now with a system that's slowly grown as my needs on the homestead grew.
   I work for the local utility company and had a Engineer friend in their solar research dept. some years ago when I first started this journey and he told me that the company had done the research and crunched the numbers and the best bang for the buck was your standard good old golf cart battery. I've done the numbers as money goes, and  I still believe this to be true. The down side is, many cells to do maintenance on and the many interconnects as well as replacement every 3 to 5 years. (I hit my battery pretty hard some parts of the year).
That all said, I am coming to the end of life for my 3rd battery bank and was looking at replacing them this fall when the weather cools off.
   Being in the HOT Desert I have my batteries in a 12' deep “bunker” under my power shed and changing them out can get a little physical, and just didn't seem realistic when I'm 70.
       What caught my interest on NiFe was I could add cells at a later time to increase my capacity (my system is always growing) as well as if a cell goes bad. (this has happened twice with my LA batteries) without the same headache as lead acid and the long life. I'm in my early fifties and the thought of swapping out my batteries every 4 to 5 years for the next 20 years just didn't thrill me.
   That all said I decided on buying a set of NiFe batteries. As has been stated here the upfront cost was a little sobering. I called around and found the folks at BeUtlityFree will help finance some of the cost of a battery of brand new cells…even if they are Chinese. That was a big deciding factor on why I went with them for my purchase
   So far my experience with the folks at BeUtlityFree has been nothing but positive…of course my interactions so far has just been me sending them money, but they have been attentive to my questions and get back to me promptly whenever I contact them.
   I'm expecting the battery to be delivered sometime mid to late summer and will let the group know how it works out and how the install and performance match up to my expectations and if my feeling on BeUtlityFree stay positive.
   And thanks to all for the diverse conversation on this and the many other topics the forum undertakes.  I have found this place and the people in it a fount of knowledge. And for the most part have found the decisions I've made over the last 11 years based on the dialogue here to been sound more times than not.

                        Bob

Bruce S

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2012, 11:19:33 AM »
Does that mean that the mods have to brush up on their Mandarin?  Xhe-xhe for the heads up!  B^>

Rgds

Damon
Niehou  :)
Need to know if it's gonna be Mandarin or Cantonese :-) Simplified or Traditional
There IS a difference.
I'm thinking if we talk nice David HK could lend us some online lessons... 8)
Cheers;
Bruce
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dloefffler

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2012, 02:12:20 PM »
I have BeUtilityFree NiFe, they shipped what they said they would, communication good.

Dennis

BillBlake

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2012, 12:40:08 PM »
I have BeUtilityFree NiFe, they shipped what they said they would, communication good.
Dennis

Hello dloefffler,

Have you read the Ni-Fe Operators Manual from Changhong Batteries who actually manufacture the
Nickel-Iron Battery cells?
Not the Solar Catalog (sales brochure) on their website but the actual, Official Ni-Fe Operators Manual.

I understand that John D'Angelo at Beutilityfree makes up his own Instruction Booklet - how he likes it.

According to his written accounts in One of the Ripoff Report's on Beutilityfree (type beutilityfree into Google)

Brandon Williams of Iron Edison Batteries claims to have been the Sales Manager for Beutilityfree before turning

the tables and viciously attacking John D'Angelo in The Ripoff Report.

That Battle at Ripoff Report has gone on and on - back and forth for a long time. In March of 2012 John D'Angelo

was still attacking Brandon Williams of Iron Edison Batteries - yet again. These guys Love 'Dropping the Dime'.

I had to quit showing that Ripoff Report to old buddies because I was afraid one of them might die from
excessive Laughter.

Bottom Line. I wouldn't worry so much about what John D'Angelo or Brandon Williams at Iron Edison Batteries
(who cutely also makes up his own little instruction leaflet) has to say.

What I would worry about is what I would have actually gotten by dealing directly with
Changhong Batteries and the Electric Indian.

Also whether or not I was getting Beat for Lower (Round-trip) Charging and Discharging Efficiency.

Beat for Lower Battery Capacity over Time. Beat for Higher Self Discharge Rates, Etc. Beat on the price and the shipping.

I'm not in this to worry too much about how much 'extra' some reseller can put in their pocket playing games if it spits
in the face of Changhong's published findings and what your really supposed to get with those batteries.

Bill Blake

nifeman

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2012, 05:02:24 PM »
Mr Blake,

You state:

"I understand that John D'Angelo at Beutilityfree makes up his own Instruction Booklet - how he likes it."

To me "how he likes it" implies he just made it up along the way. (correct me if I am wrong Mr Blake) so I called and spoke with Mr D'Angelo of BeUtiltyFree regarding the contents his manual. He said that his manual incorporates exact material from the chinese manuals he has received over the years as well as lessons learned with the Chinese cells for 18 years. He said it is more than just a "manual" and has many other bits of information that is not found either on the web or elsewhere. He said you get the manual with every battery bank you purchase. He said the manual is now up to 41 pages in the latest 1.8.2 version. He said "how he likes it" is with lots of original information directly from the China manuals along with color photos, tables, graphs, etc. He said the goal of the manual is that once read, that the phone calls to his company should be minimal. I think that his manual would be a very useful thing to have as I see it. 

Maybe dloefffler can comment on it (his manual) when he gets his copy since the just received his cells from them (BeUtilityFree) recently and you get the manual with every battery purchased from them.


BillBlake

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Nickel-Iron Batteries for Sale .. Beutilityfree .. Iron Edison
« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2012, 01:18:32 AM »
Mr Blake,

You state:

"I understand that John D'Angelo at Beutilityfree makes up his own Instruction Booklet -
how he likes it."
To me "how he likes it" implies he just made it up along the way. (correct me if I am wrong
Mr Blake) so I called and spoke with Mr D'Angelo of BeUtiltyFree regarding the contents his manual. He said that his manual incorporates exact material from the chinese manuals he has received over the years as well as lessons learned with the Chinese cells for 18 years.
He said it is more than just a "manual" and has many other bits of information that is not found either on the web or elsewhere. He said you get the manual with every battery bank you purchase. He said the manual is now up to 41 pages in the latest 1.8.2 version. He said "how he likes it" is with lots of original information directly from the China manuals along with color photos, tables, graphs, etc. He said the goal of the manual is that once read, that the phone calls to his company should be minimal. I think that his manual would be a very useful thing to have as I see it. 

Maybe dloefffler can comment on it (his manual) when he gets his copy since the just received
his cells from them (BeUtilityFree) recently and you get the manual with every battery purchased from them.

Dear Whoever. Also Dear John D'Angelo of Beutilityfree and Brandon Williams of Iron Edison
Battery Company.

I have no problem with you guys becoming Bill Blake Disciples and Learning
what you really should have known about Ni-Fe years ago.

However I'm back into a research project for my Son finally. It bothers me that the mini book
that I talked of with Bruce hasn't gone better. What time I can come up with now is going into

a new system that will hopefully improve my research story outlining abilities a little.

Though it may seem that John D'Angelo and I are at each others throats - just because I call
him a criminal that likes to get over, among other things, doesn't mean that I dislike da man.
We have spent so many hours together on the Internet that a strange kind of bond has formed.

Anyway I just don't have time to try to put out more fires and the time to try to BE SURE
that the word is somewhat spread about what Brandon Williams is doing to good people that
fall for his

"Run your Ni-Fe cells 85% Dead Every Day - Sales Pitch".

John knows better, Changhong Batteries that builds BOTH John's and Brandon's Batteries
certainly knows better and naturally old Bill knows better.

Then we have people getting BEAT on the Ni-Fe Electrolyte (in my opinion) by both John and
John's former Sales Manager Brandon Williams

(according to what Brandon says in one of the Rip-Off Report's filed on Beutilityfree.)

Simply type: 'Beutilityfree' into Google. That's Enough !

However TODAY it seems to me that John is looking out for his customers WAY more than
what Brandon is doing. It's unbelievable.

Bottom Line. We MUST get past some damaging practices of the

'Nickel-Iron-Batteries for Sale' boys. It just can not go on totally free with no punishment at all.

There has to be at least the price that somebody that matters may see these posts.
I have the proof in writing over and over from both John and Brandon.

Just to get something going I would like to narrow the circus act down to just 2 Rings.

This Run your Ni-Fe Cells 85% Dead (Constantly) Sales Campaign is #1 and

The AMOUNT and the QUALITY of the Lithium Hydroxide (LiOH.H20) Electrolyte Chemical

that Beutilityfree and Iron Edison are both shipping with their Ni-Fe Battery orders will be #2.

I need to write Bruce first and ask permission. I do not want a war here at all.
However Momma said decades ago: I don't want you playing the sweetboy Billie.

This jive is getting old. We need to focus on the important issues.

So I will ask permission to take the time that it will take to get at least these 2 items
cleared up with a Long 'critical blow' of a Documented Post - once and for all.

Just the LiOH alone is going to prove how jive turkey BOTH of their homemade
Instruction Manuals are. Window dressing talk is cheap. If your hurting a man or woman real bad

with sub-standard electrolyte according to the last official Changhong Operator's Manual
that we could locate
AND what the Changhong PhD Battery Chemist had to say.

Talk - or hard facts and - Who is Pocketing What?

The OFFICIAL Changhong Batteries Operators Manual gives you plenty of details with the

inconvenient truths still included. Changhong executives in China are aware of all this I hear.
They have highly qualified personel here in America and they should chime in Here Now.

This is just a hobby for me that is now taking too much time but I know how things can change

if there is severe illness in a family years later. After putting 10, 20, 30, 40, (or so) thousand out

when your counting on 'Lifetime Batteries'  that Lifetime should at least be a good while!

Buying 'Lifetime Nickel Iron Batteries' that will only make it 2.7 Years (LESS that 3 YEARS)

by abusing them just has to stop. This is what

'mostexpwnife' (who always used to sign his posts there as John D'Angelo, CEO, Beutilityfree)

at the SolarPanelTalk forum just put in writing on 6/13/12.

I also have it in email from both Beutilityfree and Iron Edison that gets even juicier.

We put this nonsense behind us once and for all and then MOVE ON.

Thanks,

Bill Blake

Off grid in Tonopah

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2012, 01:13:40 AM »
     Well as promised in an earlier post I would update the board on my NiFe battery adventure. I had ordered the batteries back in May from BeUtilityfree with the expectation that they would be delivered late summer so I could get them installed after the BIG HEAT. And I put in some more solar. They showed up first week of Sept in some nice wooden crates






      They were packaged well and had a few exotic spiders living in the crates. We'll see how they like the AZ desert. During this time all the communications from BeUtilityfree was on time and kept me informed as to the status of the delivery from passing customs to my front door. NICE.




     I had to get the battery house ready to except the new bank while still keeping the old lead acid bank operational so moving the bank around while in use was a challenge. Once that was done I poured about 800 lbs of concrete to make a nice level and raised area for the new batteries. All this is being done in a 12' deep hole under my power shed so moving the concrete and batteries down into the hole was a little bit of a chore.



      Got the batteries set in place and was ready for the electrolyte. So far if there was any part of this experience that didn't go smooth this was that part. It wasn't a big deal but it seemed it was harder to get the chemicals from Colorado then the batteries from China. It took a couple of weeks and a few back and fourths and the chems for mixing the electrolyte showed up and the fun could begin. Mixing 40 gallons of a pretty caustic solution is not to be taken lightly. And then getting it down into the hole and into the batteries in a controlled manner was a challenge. I used 20' of clear tubing and a racking cane from my brew supplies and it work fine.



       
     Also mixing the electrolyte is an exothermic reaction. I read about this up front and made 8 gallons of distilled water ice blocks. This helped quite a bit to keep the temperature under control as it does get quite hot.


   One down side….. I was short about 5 gallons of electrolyte. When they shipped they said they only ship you exactly what you need, not the 110% they said they used to ship. I tripled checked the S.P. Gravity of the mix and being a home brewer I have a pretty good handle on how S.P. Gravity works and is checked. My only guess is the China made S.P. bulb may be off a little. I marked the high level mark on the batteries so when I add water I don't go above this line and have a weaker solution than call for. And I'll contact BeUtilityfree and see what they recommend.







   Now for some of the self inflected lessons. There is such a thing as to much battery. The recommended battery size was 20 cells. So “HEY 22 cells can only be better…Right”  NOT… If you use 1.65 volts per cell for a full charge that puts you at 36.3 volts to charge the bank. Much higher than the “magic smoke” warning for most 24 volt equipment. My bad… I just got caught up in the “OHHHH shiny” mind set and didn't pay close attention to doing my home work. Even at 20 cells you are right on the upper limit for Outback equipment and I might go to 19 cells for a little extra comfort.
   All is not lost though as I plan on doubling the bank as time and money allows and it's just 3 less batteries I need to buy. As the batteries store well if drained.
   So in summery. …I'm please with the performance so far. There is a charge efficiency difference that is noticed compared to lead acid but not terrible. And I'll see if it gets better as the bank gets broke in. Its only been on line for about 10 days. I'll let you know how I make out with BeUtilityfree on the electrolyte issue but so far they have been and done exactly what they say they would, so no complaints. Now I'll just sit and use them for awhile and I'll let you know if the NiFe experience is all that it's held out to be.

                     Your Humble Guinea Pig
                     Bob     



BillBlake

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Re: Ni-Fe battery
« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2012, 11:22:27 AM »
Off grid in Tonopah,

Beutilityfree came out with a new Ni-Fe Battery guarantee in March of 2012.
Since watching the carbonates level is your responsibility under any of their warranties why wait
to establish a baseline?
"You may want to check your electrolyte sooner rather than later" said The KW Kid.

A fellow named Mike who is very well known in several forums and a Moderator at SolarPanelTalk
has started having big problems from the 42 Ni-Fe Cells that he bought from John D'Angelo at
Beutilityfree. Same batteries as yours.
Mike is an engineer that knows what he's doing with many years of experience.

For such huge problems to happen so fast to new Ni-Fe Cells just about has to be
Electrolyte related. There doesn't seem to have been enough time for Iron Poisoning
of the Positive Elements to be taking them down so bad.

I'm wondering if China getting out of shipping the electrolyte chemicals with the cells
(like they did for many years) along with the Nickel Iron Batteries themselves
has something to do with this sad event. Mike's chemicals came from China.

The attachment that Beutilityfree sent of the Warranty won't copy and paste properly using this
Laptop. I'll try a desktop on Monday that is set-up for unusual stuff.
There is another copy of the (yet again) New Ni-Fe Warranty  but it's missing
the latest talk about your Ah meter readings and how if they are erased or re-set it
Voids your Guarantee.
as does a number of other things including the electrolyte carbonates.

I noticed that John D'Angelo voids the warranty if you buy the electrolyte chemicals from anyone but him. Sly devil.
That is too bad since he talks (in writing) about using a low grade, junk, high profit,
'Lab Grade' Lithium Hydroxide.

Why bother with 55 to 56% junk?

Reagent Grade LiOH at 99%+ Pure is available at a very reasonable price if a person puts the time
into finding it. Right here in America I may add. Hard containers - NOT plastic bags which is KEY.

When I asked the Changhong Batteries Doctor (PhD) about using the better LiOH he got a
little annoyed.

"Naturally the 'Reagent Grade' is much better" is what the Changhong Ni-Fe Doctor said.


Bill Blake