Author Topic: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)  (Read 23390 times)

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DanielInSweden

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2011, 04:46:05 PM »
Spent the day welding on the tail boom and the tail bearing mount.. A bit tricky to get all pieces lined up and put in place.. This tail boom piece turned out to be quite heavy too.. approx60lbs is probably not far from the truth.. :o

just-doug

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2011, 07:33:37 PM »
i don't mean to sound real picky,but there are a few techniques you might find helpfull.in doing prototype steel work it is helpfull to only tack weld things in place.that way if you change your mind you only have to cut the tack welds to move  things.easier!your stator mounts may really need to be cut off and reposition further back to create the working clearances you may need.the other issue is the structual design of the tail.the tail is really a truss with gravity pressing down on the tail.the top piece is under tension the bottom piece is under compression loads.the other power style tail is completely backwards for the meterials being used.flat bar is near worthless under compression,tubing is good under compression.in my oppion, your tail will be stronger with the tubing on the bottom and the flat bar on top.this change to a stronger design will allow you to use thinner material ,if you wish, to further lighten the tail.just my thoughts

SparWeb

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2011, 12:26:25 AM »
It is my natural reflex to defend... but I have to admit, the flat bar on the lower member isn't the best choice.  I don't agree with Doug's prescription - I would say that the upper tube should remain, and the flat bar simply be replaced with a thin-walled tube.  If you can find tubing that is, roughly 3cm OD with a 2 mm wall (forgive me if I haven't converted to metric correctly) it will be much much better than the flat bars you have.  Smaller tube would also make a good substitute for the lacing members between upper and lower members, too.  The upper member (the main tube) looks like it has a wall thickness of 3mm and that is where all the weight is coming from.  The main tube should stay like it is, since you are cantilevering on the tube's strength alone on the outer half of the tube.
These tails can take a beating when they swing about. 
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DanielInSweden

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2011, 03:37:05 PM »
Thank you Sparweb and just-doug for your thoughts about this. I like it that you share your knowledge. I agree that the design of the tail boom that I have chosen(ie. the otherpower design) might not be the bet one. I still chosed it because it has been proven to put up in their environment and since I´m out on the flatland I also believe I have stable wind conditions. Another reason for it is that it´s trimmed weightwise to the rest of the system and the tail weight is from what I understand a critical factor. I´m working right now to connect a chock absorber to the tail and avoid the hammering and swinging of the tail. Do you know of any good solutions where standard car or motorcycle parts have been used?

I will also connect a steel wire to the mid point of the tail, let it run over 2ea pulleys, down the center of the tower and hang a weight at the end of the wire. By fine tuning this weight in stable increasing and decreasing wind speeds I can also adjust the furling point to exactly where I want it. What do you think about this? I have seen one with this system in romania. I would prefer to govern this with a servo motor activated at X windspeed(voltage) but I like the robust wire concept too :)
 

Dave B

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2011, 12:27:06 AM »
Daniel,

  I have used the adjustable weight on the cable idea to the furling tail and it worked well. From this of course you can put a swivel on the cable down near the end and manually crank in the tail as far as you want as well. A boat type hand winch is plenty to get it done. The tail assembly will be punished, if you make it twice as strong as you think it will ever need to be you might get by, I would make it twice as strong as that.  Keep us posted, very nice looking project.  Dave B.
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fabricator

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2011, 06:59:17 PM »
My brake is operated by a pneumatic cylinder, all you need is a small compressor in the turbine control area and 1/4" tubing from there to the turbine.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
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kitestrings

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2011, 01:06:44 PM »
Hi Daniel,

Nice to see you making progress.

A comment on the cable strategy - I've generally found a cable to be a pain if the tower is of any height to speak of.  It relies on two things working well: 1) that you have a reliable strain relief to account for the weight of the cable and 2) that the friction of the cable and pulleys does not change due to dirt, lack of lubrication, corrosion, icing, etc.  In the case of adding a weight you may encounter one additonal issue.  If the furling is set up right, it should take more force to get it to furl than to keep it there.  This is accomplised by the moment arm shifting in relation to the yaw axis, and makes sense considering that the rotor thrust drops as it furls.  The problem I've encountered is where the cable (and weights in your case) restricts the restoring motion.

I wish I could offer a better solution.   We're planning a lighter line and an enclosed linlkage at the machine, but are using it just to manually furl if/when needed.  Sounds like Fab' is using neumatics with success.  I suppose hydraulic or motor-actuators are an alternative, but add complexity.  It is still a design element I'm not totally happy with, with ours.

best of luck,

~kitestrings

just-doug

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2011, 06:16:27 PM »
for tail stops i like truck suspension rubber stops.just start looking under your locale trucks till you see something you like.for travel control some trucks us steering stabilizers.American 4x4 ford trucks often have a hydraulic steering stabilizer.

ghurd

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2011, 09:01:03 PM »
for travel control some trucks us steering stabilizers.American 4x4 ford trucks often have a hydraulic steering stabilizer.

So does a VW Bug... a REAL Bug, not the kind with a water pump.
Bug unit may be more suitable for stuff under 20'?
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DanielInSweden

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2011, 03:19:00 PM »
Fitted the tail boom suspension today, my gut feeling is good and I believe it will work with small adjustments... please feedback! ;) The tube welded to the boom makes it possible for the bracket where the rear suspension mount is bolted, to slide(one tube inside the other and the inner tube welded to the bracket, thus making it possible for the chock to fold. It´s a Volvo original chock and can be bought all around the world. The chock has 1ea ball joint mounted in each end to allow for the angle that changes as the tail boom folds and unfolds.

just-doug

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2011, 11:00:20 PM »
very creative ! the sliding mount certainly helps with the lack of space that makes mounting a shock such a challenge.for furling in high winds to be effective, the machine needs to fold to a narrow angle,not sure yours is narrow  enough yet.the sliding plate mount my get worn in to before the yearly inspection.that would not be good.might try detaching the shock on the slid end ,close the tail up tight with the shock compressed and poking out the other side of the tail boom.basically run the shock thew the boom to the other side.the other issue is the shocks travel.the tail has travel as well.not much travel near its hinge,a lot at the tail.you will need to measure the shock travel, and find a mathing lacation on the tail in its full swing.I'm sorry if this comes out confussing,but you will  going to figure this out,!

Janne

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2011, 05:00:20 AM »
I would be a bit concerned about the slider sticking up in the long run, making it a non-furler. Otherwise, the shock absorber is a good idea, I hope you used a gas filled one instead of a oil filled one :)
Nothing's as easy as drilling a hole in the wrong place

DanielInSweden

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2011, 01:47:32 PM »
Thank you gentlemen for your thoughts about the tail suspension.. they where all valuable and I might adjust the design, but first I will make a few tests.. I´ll be back with more pictures later.

Regards/Daniel

DanielInSweden

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2016, 04:07:01 PM »
Hello! I have been building a house for some time but now I'm back and will complete this project. Tower was complete a few weeks ago, 21m. It's a beautiful view from up there  ;D

DanielInSweden

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2016, 04:32:55 PM »
Pictures of 21m freestanding lattice tower. Lowest 14m was erected this summer with a large escavator and the highest 7m top piece connected with a hinge, was erected two weeks ago. The soft clay has delayed the project since it´s only drivable with heavy machinery mid summer or winter when frozen. The turbine will be winched up there and slided in and down over the top tube. //Daniel

DanielInSweden

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2016, 04:46:20 PM »
I will need help from you guy´s to calculate best coil for this turbine.

Blades are 3,4m (turbine diam incl. hub 7m)
48V @60rpm target and 3m/s windspeed.

I attached blade data to take into consideration.

Blades are fixed to hub with adjustable pitch of -2/+4 degrees

Number of turns?
Strands inhand?
Wire gauge?

Feel free to calculate, any help in this coil sizing is greatly appreciated.

Kind regards/Daniel



DanielInSweden

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2016, 04:49:58 PM »
Oh.. forgot the magnet discs..

20 N42 neodym magnets on each disc 3x1,5x0,75inch

15coils, 5 in each phase

DanielInSweden

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2016, 02:19:57 AM »
Oh.. forgot the magnet discs..

20 N42 neodym magnets on each disc 3x1,5x0,75inch

15coils, 5 in each phase

Magnet disc diameter: 560mm (22")

StirlingEngine

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #51 on: February 01, 2016, 07:47:23 AM »

DanielInSweden

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2016, 03:18:41 PM »
Thank's @sterlingengine 👍

DanielInSweden

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2016, 04:24:42 PM »
Hello!

Did I get this right?

Im not fully sure tat I have enterpreted the coil calculator definitions/line items correctly. Anyone who know who can verify?

See attached picture

Kind regards/Daniel

DanielInSweden

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2016, 04:27:19 PM »
Here is a better picture including numbers..

DanielInSweden

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2016, 04:36:42 PM »
Rest of the data. Please comment if you see something that doesn´t look correct. What bothers me is that my actual stator and magnet disc diameter is not even close to the figures that the calculator suggests.
 /Daniel

klsmurf

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #56 on: February 05, 2016, 06:53:13 PM »
Hi,   A couple things:

I believe that #4, they are asking for the width of the inner hole.
The airgap is the distance between the faces of the magnets on the opposing rotors
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DanielInSweden

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2016, 04:50:16 AM »
Hi klsmurf,

Thank´s! That #4 makes sense and since I have a tapered inner coil space I guess largest inner width is asked for.

Regarding the airgap I see further down in the calc sheet that there is a separate input cell for the airgap between magnet and stator which lead me to believe that I´m right in my sketch.



/Daniel 

paara

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2016, 04:14:13 AM »
I thought all measurements about the coil was regarding the "coil hole". The outer measurements is calculated by adding the coil width.????  If not the results become wrong compated to my my model drawings

DanielInSweden

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2016, 05:17:13 AM »
paara, thank´s!

that makes sense and now the output values correspond better with actual stator and disc diam.

One other thing I would like to have a piece of advice on is the number of strands. In star connected coils the calc. sheet allow 18,42mm coil thickness with 4 strands of 1,6mm (diam) wire. I can see that it´s on the limit in the calculator before the cell turns red. Should I go with 4 strands if I ca squeeze it in?

Kind regards/Daniel

DanielInSweden

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #60 on: February 08, 2016, 06:10:47 AM »
Hello,

Please help me to verify what this "Airgap" in the calc. sheet refers to. Is it smallest gap between magnets mounted on disc or total airgap (two sides of stator) between magnets and stator or something else? I posted a picture of what I believe it is above but I need this confirmed since it affect coil sizing.

Kind regards,

Daniel

electrondady1

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #61 on: February 08, 2016, 08:22:33 AM »
on this site the air gap refers to the space between the rotors. that is to say the thickness of the stator plus the clearances between the stator  and the mag rotors

DanielInSweden

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #62 on: February 08, 2016, 08:42:40 AM »
Thank you Electrondaddy!

Makes sense whith airgap incl. stator thickness  :)

Have a good day in Canada!

Kind regards from a rainy Sweden

/Daniel

StirlingEngine

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Re: Dan's 20 foot turbine (Sweden)
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2016, 04:42:22 PM »
Hello,

I updated my calculator:

http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,148812.msg1036663.html#msg1036663

Maybe you can check it to see if the values you've found match?

Regards.