Author Topic: Betts Law question.  (Read 20111 times)

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Jerry

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Betts Law question.
« on: November 30, 2011, 09:16:17 PM »
There is a new company here in Oregon  www.windpoweroregon.com that clames there wind turbin produces 800 watts at 12.5 MPH wind with 65" blades. Thats fraude. What is the power limit for these #s, 12.5 MPH and 65" blades?

In a vedio the manufacture say 800 watts at 6 mph.  I want to deal with this crap cause these thives give wind power a bad name. Whats worse its  an ileagle grid tie system.

Jerry

SparWeb

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2011, 12:28:30 AM »
Jerry,
Next they'll try to break the law of gravity!

There isn't that much power available going through a set of blades 65" diameter.

rho=0.00237 slug/ft^3
D = 65 inches = 5.4 feet
Area = pi/4*D^2 = 23 square feet
Cp = 0.593 (the Betz limit)
V = 12.5mph = 18.3 feet/sec

rho / 2 * V^3 * Area * Cp = (0.002377) / 2 * (18.3)^3 * (23) * 0.593 = 99 ft-lb/sec  =  137 Watts

Even  *IF*  they meant 65" radius blades it would only be 540 Watts.

In these cases I'd love to see for myself, but I'd hate to give them the satisfaction of adding to their website hit-count.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

Jerry

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2011, 10:14:46 AM »
Jerry,
Next they'll try to break the law of gravity!

There isn't that much power available going through a set of blades 65" diameter.

rho=0.00237 slug/ft^3
D = 65 inches = 5.4 feet
Area = pi/4*D^2 = 23 square feet
Cp = 0.593 (the Betz limit)
V = 12.5mph = 18.3 feet/sec

rho / 2 * V^3 * Area * Cp = (0.002377) / 2 * (18.3)^3 * (23) * 0.593 = 99 ft-lb/sec  =  137 Watts

Even  *IF*  they meant 65" radius blades it would only be 540 Watts.

In these cases I'd love to see for myself, but I'd hate to give them the satisfaction of adding to their website hit-count.


Thank you so much for crunching the #s. I wouldn't be so concerned about these guys accept for the fact that they are promoting there product through a friends local electronics parts store. I'm going to warn him of the legal dangers of helping them promote an illegally dangerous grid tie product. I also want to point out to him there ridiculous and bogus claims. Thanks again for your help.

Jerry
Jerry, hope you don't mind!! but with this needed important info I fixed a few misspelled words.
BTW: go help your friend!!
Bruce S
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 10:37:10 AM by Bruce S »

Jerry

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2011, 07:54:54 PM »
Well I went over to take a look at the Oregon Wind Power OWP800 wind turbine today. I also had a plesant visit with Don the owner/partner in this co.

While I was there the wind came up to 3 MPH. His data gathering equiptment  indicated 3 mph, 9 volts. He thought this was very impresive? He did show me the PMA they are using it is a Wind Blue DC-540. The grid tie inverter is one of those cheap small non UL plug and play units.

They addvertize this wind generator as producing 800 watts at 12.5 mph. That trubles me some since they rate the  invertor at 550 watts. I talked to Doug at Wind Blue today and he said the 540 will produce 225 watts at 30 MPH. OWP says there generator will furl out of the wind at 35 mph.

I also asked Doug why they sell to scamers like this. He told me the scamers typicly last a short while then get sued and go out of business.

Time will tell.

Jerry

SparWeb

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2011, 12:01:39 PM »
A mis-matched jumble of stuff, all wired together, what could go wrong?

Is that really all Windblue had to say about it?  Sure they can't supervise every customer, but if they know they're selling these generators to scammers, they could protect their own reputation by stopping that supply.  If they care about such things.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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Mary B

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2011, 12:26:55 PM »
The scammers quote specs into non-real world loads, not a battery bank. That is how they get the huge figures.

Jerry

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2011, 12:28:29 PM »
A mis-matched jumble of stuff, all wired together, what could go wrong?

Is that really all Windblue had to say about it?  Sure they can't supervise every customer, but if they know they're selling these generators to scammers, they could protect their own reputation by stopping that supply.  If they care about such things.


Actuly the install was fairly clean. In the video there is a loose bundel of wire just to the left of the control/invertor box. These small wires were just extra lingth from the anemometer. During my visit there yesterday this wire was neatly secured. Don of OWP told me the only part they don't build is the stator. I know thats not true. There was a brande new Wind Blue DC 540 still raped in bubble rape on the assembly table.

Yes Doug at Wind BLue says they have sold to other builder-sellers like these guys. He didn't seemed to concerned. He also told me they are no longer making there complete wind turbine kit. It infact it has been removed from there product page. They are still offering all there other products.

I have to say the OWP build quality is very good. Its to bad there truthfullness is crap. If they would just call it what it is. And stop claiming 800 watts at 6 or 12.5 mph. And call it a 200 watt max wind generator. And sell it at around $400 to $500 like some of there competitors do. Not the $1945 thats the price without the grid tie invertor.

Jerry

CaptainPatent

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2011, 05:18:00 PM »
I'd just like to say that even if they were Betz masters and achieved 59% efficiency, it would still take a machine with 9' blades (18' machine) to produce around 800 watts at 12.5mph...

Oh, and a machine with 26' blades (or a whopping 52' machine) to produce 800 watts at 6mph...

 ::) *facepalm* ::)

TomT

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2011, 06:39:28 PM »
Looks like another open volts shorted load current chart and they hide the turbine in a Box. ::)

Jerry

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2011, 07:58:09 PM »
I found out a local news paper wrote a story about these guys in there Friday November 18th edition on page 15. The paper is the Capitol Press (The West's AG Weekly).

The reporter that wrote the story is out of town. When he returns in a week I think I'll have a conversation with him. Let him know these guys are not telling the truth. Also of the dangers using this type grid tie invertor.

Thanks everyone for crunching the Betts #s.

Jerry

Jerry

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2011, 12:49:54 PM »
The reporter that wrote this story called me today. He was in a hurry, didn't have much time. I explained to him the best I could in a short amount of time why these guys are scammers.

He sounded very disappointed. He said the papers managing editor will be calling me for more info.

The funny thing in the OWP video. Gerry is saying you should do your home work when buying small wind power. He is right and that's what is happening here. Hopfully this will save someone from macking a $2000 mistake.

The reporter said this could look bad on them if too many people get swindled buy these guys.

I'm still looking for info on these crap inverters.

Jerry

hysteresis

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2011, 05:26:50 PM »
Be sure to email the editor the link to this thread. When he sees that it would need to be over FIFTY feet in diameter to produce that power, he will have some real facts to write about. That would cost untold thousands $$ and be a hundred feet up in the air. Touting substantial power at speeds below 10 MPH as a minimum is a foolish.

The inverter: It's probably a small wall plug in grid tie inverter from china like others are selling.

Getting the reporter and editor to understand about diameter and power would be a great achievement here. They work with facts and issues daily, so it would be something good for them and this industry. The general public who will shell out big money expecting these claims has no design knowledge whatsoever compared to the people here on this message board.

The people here who build systems with viable output and go over the technical deigns and build generating structure from the inside out all know what it takes to put systems up and maintain them.

What's worse is having component suppliers and manufacturing outfits like OWP and others that make these little units with these claims are what is making this industry and business have a reputation of complete garbage with the general public! There are now a growing number of videos on YouTube by customers of these companies who have machines that put out no power from PMA's and other situations. They have been robbed and have gotten no customer service or technical response by phone or email after trying over and over. Some have record of being cussed and sworn at by the places they bought the units from. They have made videos to show this to others and save them from being swindled, and there are various entries on different consumer protection web sites with announcements about "getting robbed and scammed when you buy a wind system" from this happening.

The bottom line is that this perpetuates the image that buying a wind system is buying into a crackpot industry.

AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ELIMINATING!!!!  :'(  NOT CREATING.

Selling anyone who scams and over charges the components they need makes you morally and usually legally part and parcel of the scam. That's already been proved in courts in other industries, construction, automotive, heating and cooling systems, just to mention a few.
======hys======

Jerry

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2011, 08:24:22 PM »
Be sure to email the editor the link to this thread. When he sees that it would need to be over FIFTY feet in diameter to produce that power, he will have some real facts to write about. That would cost untold thousands $$ and be a hundred feet up in the air. Touting substantial power at speeds below 10 MPH as a minimum is a foolish.

The inverter: It's probably a small wall plug in grid tie inverter from china like others are selling.

Getting the reporter and editor to understand about diameter and power would be a great achievement here. They work with facts and issues daily, so it would be something good for them and this industry. The general public who will shell out big money expecting these claims has no design knowledge whatsoever compared to the people here on this message board.

The people here who build systems with viable output and go over the technical deigns and build generating structure from the inside out all know what it takes to put systems up and maintain them.

What's worse is having component suppliers and manufacturing outfits like OWP and others that make these little units with these claims are what is making this industry and business have a reputation of complete garbage with the general public! There are now a growing number of videos on YouTube by customers of these companies who have machines that put out no power from PMA's and other situations. They have been robbed and have gotten no customer service or technical response by phone or email after trying over and over. Some have record of being cussed and sworn at by the places they bought the units from. They have made videos to show this to others and save them from being swindled, and there are various entries on different consumer protection web sites with announcements about "getting robbed and scammed when you buy a wind system" from this happening.

The bottom line is that this perpetuates the image that buying a wind system is buying into a crackpot industry.

AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ELIMINATING!!!!  :'(  NOT CREATING.

Selling anyone who scams and over charges the components they need makes you morally and usually legally part and parcel of the scam. That's already been proved in courts in other industries, construction, automotive, heating and cooling systems, just to mention a few.

Thanks for this input. It is very inspiring.
Jerry

Gerryd

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2011, 11:04:37 PM »
To Jerry and Others on this board, now that I have been granted access to your humble board I have a few things to say. You can call me names or whatever you choose, I want to set the record straight about Oregon WindPower.

1. Jerry, you visited our site and spoke with Don. You saw a WindBlue Power unit laying on the work bench. First we do not use windblue units for our wind turbines, so to assume that we do is your mistake.

2. It's Betz Limits, Not Betts Law.

3. Slandering a company without knowing the facts are not a real good idea. You have continued to slander my company without true merit.

4. As far as scamming, you need to look around. I have been designing my units for seven years. I know the in's and out's of small wind turbines. I know about Betz limits (Max power available is 59.3%) and CO ratings. Blade pitch and so on.
5. If you have concerns about our product, please, by all means contact me direct instead of playing this little game of yours. It's your type of comments that give you a bad name.

Gerry
Oregon WindPower, LLC
support@windpoweroregon.com

rossw

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2011, 11:58:15 PM »
2. It's Betz Limits, Not Betts Law.

Whatever he called it, we knew what he meant.

Quote
3. Slandering a company without knowing the facts are not a real good idea.

English not your first language?

Quote
You have continued to slander my company without true merit.

I'll come back to that...


Quote
4. As far as scamming, you need to look around. I have been designing my units for seven years. I know the in's and out's of small wind turbines. I know about Betz limits (Max power available is 59.3%) and CO ratings. Blade pitch and so on.

OK, so you know 59.3%. Lets come back to the "without true merit".

I wasn't going to get involved in this thread... but a couple of really basic things.

In your video, you show your control box, where YOU introduce the Volts and Amps... and above it is a Davis Instruments weatherstation. Not close enough to see the settings, but since you kept referring to wind speed in miles/hr, I'm going to assume the Davis was showing that too. The highest speed I saw in the video was 6(mph). At that point, your system was showing 13.1V and 0.2A. Now when I went to school, that would be 13.1 * 0.2 = 2.62 WATTS.
Yet you were announcing earlier in the video "800 watts at 6 miles per hour" - I make that something close to 797.4 watts more than what you show being achieved - or put another way, you were achieving just over 0.3% of your claimed output.

If that is what's in your own video.... I can't see how you don't think his claims have any merit.


Taking it another way - assuming an air density of 1.225kg/m^3 moving at 6mph, a prop of 30' 6" could harvest, at maximum, 802 watts.
With a co-efficient of performance of 0.2, and a generator/alternator that is 80% efficient, that would leave somewhat under 128 watts of electrical energy.

Lets be really silly for a moment, and assume you can get the coefficient of performance to an unrealistic 0.5, and use an alternator that is 80% efficient at converting mechanical input to electrical output, in order to get 800 watts of electrical energy out at 6 miles/hr wind (again, 1.225kg/m^3 density), you would need a prop just over 48 feet in diameter!

I, like many others on the forum, would love to hear your explanation how you can claim 800W out in a 6mph wind from your device, when you seem to be several orders of magnitude short in actual available power!

hysteresis

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2011, 12:03:50 AM »
IT's good to see you here Gerryd of OWP.....

Your input is defensive. With due respect, my comments regarding the situation which was being referred to with people incorporating materials and making videos about their being scammed was from various others Already out there. Those are matter of facts, not slander. Whether or not that becomes your plight as well remains to be seen.

Your unit seems to be made strongly from the images. There is an absolute lack of details and specific information on the product link. Just an image on a page with no information.

I would address the first post made on this board directly
- which regards the technical specification of output parameters and velocity for such. All subsequent entries are based on this information itself. IF U know that Betz is a limit and not a law (which is splitting hairs on the essence of the description for the knowledge of the phenomenon), than by all means please show us how your rotor diameter and generating coils are providing this output at the stated wind velocity, in writings, and runtime videos of current display indicators at the installation, and what it is that you are incorporating to perform this achievement.

There are many designers and builders here on this 'humble board' who will be eager to celebrate it with you.
======hys======

CaptainPatent

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2011, 12:39:26 AM »
Oh wait - now I understand:

"Our 65 inch system can produce 800 watts of power in a 6mph wind*"

* When attached to a car travelling at 30mph

It's all about the fine print.

richhagen

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2011, 06:46:17 AM »
In the video, if I heard this correct, it is stated that this device "will on average put out about 800W consistently in about a 6mph wind" 

Now I believe that represents a claim that this device puts out 800W of continuous power in winds of 6 miles per hour.  I didn't hear the specific diameter of the turbine in question, but it was listed at 65 inches above in this posting and my best estimate from the video is that it is in this neighborhood. Now it could be that they were referring to an unseen 30 foot turbine other than the one shown in the video, but for the example below I will go with 65 inch diameter rotor as an approximation.

Wind turbines convert the kinetic energy in wind to electrical energy at the output.  There are other types of energy in the wind, such as thermal, the energy in the random motion of the molecules we measure when we measure temperature, but no turbine that I have ever heard of or seen has the ability to tap into that.  Turbines are all limited to this kinetic energy.  How much energy is in this wind?  Well a turbines blades have to collect this energy from the wind passing over them.  Betz figured out that you can't take all of it or the air would stop in its tracks and no more wind would move over the blades, he calculated a theoretical limit of 16/27 or 59.3% which bears his name.  No turbine to date has ever been proven to exceed, or even come close to this limit.  Even if there were no limit, there is still only a limited amount of kinetic energy.

In the case of a turbine with a 65 inch diameter rotor, and for winds of 6 miles per hour this can be calculated fairly easily. 
Assuming there are no errors in my units or math, below are the calculations for such conditions. First, for me, I have to get everything into SI units, meters and Kilograms in order for my results to come out in Watts.

12.5 miles per hour * 5280 feet per mile * 12 inches per foot * 2.54 cm / inch * 1 meter /100 cm * 1 hour / 3600 seconds = 5.58 meters / second

65 inch  diameter blades blades would have a radius of 65 inches/ 2 * 2.54cm/1 inch * 1 meter / 100 cm = .8255 meters

swept area = pi* square of radius, or 3.14 * .8255 meters squared = 2.14 square meters

volume of wind passing the blades in one second = swept area multiplied by the wind speed = 2.14 square meters * 5.58 meters per second = 11.94 cubic meters per second

from Wikipedia, density of air at sea level is approximately 1.29 kg / meter cubed at zero degrees celsius and at sea level
(it would be lower at higher temperatures and/or elevations)

mass of air passing through the swept area if it did not slow down at all while passing would be 11.94 cubic meters * 1.29 Kg / cubic meter = 15.4kg/second

total kinetic energy contained in the air passing through the swept area if the wind did not slow down at all in passing would be:
1/2 * the mass of air * the square of the velocity = 15.4kg/s * (5.58 meters) ^ 2 = 479.5 kg m^2/s^3 which = 479.5 Joules per second or 479.5 Watts

This would be the case with 100% efficiency, no Betz limit considerations, and no alternator inefficiencies.

The Betz Limit would put this at about 284.3 Watts, and at the efficiencies of the best utility scale wind turbines that I have heard of at about 47% would only be about 225 Watts or so.  When you add reasonable inefficiencies common in small wind turbines you end up with figures about what Sparweb already posted.

If you are actually getting 800 Watts from such a setup, you have an overunity device that works and with a proper write up are a shoe in to win a nobel prize as none has ever been demonstrated.  The most likely error for anyone honestly claiming such an output from such a machine would be a mismeasurement of wind speed, since the power available is a function of the cube of the wind speed, a small error there would be magnified when calculating the efficiency.

One other note is that I looked into grid tie in my area, and the inverter must be hard wired here, not connected by cord, and must be UL approved for the specific use for which it is applied.  I doubt most utilities in the U.S. would feel much differently, but there may be coops or other providers out there with a more liberal attitude.

Lastly, although I am not attempting to call anyone out, only give a general example, since accusations of slander have already surfaced in this thread, I should point out that I am writing this in Illinois, and it is an affirmative defense here for defamation (slander) if what you write is determined to be the truth.  While I do not claim to know all of the specifics of the particular wind turbine in question, I am stating that there is no way that a 65" diameter wind turbine can output 800Watts of continuous power in a 6 mile per hour wind, period.
A Joule saved is a Joule made!

TomW

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2011, 09:17:23 AM »
Slander is verbal...

Libel is written...

Ok a minor point but implies an inability to be accurate with details.

Care to unsay anything regarding your published numbers?

You do have the right to defend yourself.

I am of the opinion that you are simply another entity pulled up to the public tit to extract money from windpower any way you can.

Attacking Jerry is kind of stupid. He is well liked and many will defend him right or wrong. I am one of them. Like a guy attacking me with a knife, metaphorically you  brought a knife to a gun fight. Just saying.

'Nuff Sed.

Tom

Norm

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2011, 10:24:22 AM »
1. Jerry, you visited our site and spoke with Don. You saw a WindBlue Power unit laying on the work bench. First we do not use windblue units for our wind turbines, so to assume that we do is your mistake.
......Okay ....so what do you use?....as I doubt the best possible match would fufill your
seemingly exagerated claim.
Looking for a good honest answer.
Norm.

Jerry

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2011, 12:59:08 PM »
To Jerry and Others on this board, now that I have been granted access to your humble board I have a few things to say. You can call me names or whatever you choose, I want to set the record straight about Oregon WindPower.

1. Jerry, you visited our site and spoke with Don. You saw a WindBlue Power unit laying on the work bench. First we do not use windblue units for our wind turbines, so to assume that we do is your mistake.

2. It's Betz Limits, Not Betts Law.

3. Slandering a company without knowing the facts are not a real good idea. You have continued to slander my company without true merit.

4. As far as scamming, you need to look around. I have been designing my units for seven years. I know the in's and outs of small wind turbines. I know about Betz limits (Max power available is 59.3%) and CO ratings. Blade pitch and so on.
5. If you have concerns about our product, please, by all means contact me direct instead of playing this little game of yours. It's your type of comments that give you a bad name.

Gerry
Oregon WindPower, LLC
support@windpoweroregon.com


Gerryd.
I've been involved with small scale wind power for 13 years. This group can attest to that. I had atop my store 14 small wind generatore at one time. These supplied power to run the shop when wind was available. 3 of the units were commercially built. One was very much like yours. It was a Hornet from hydrogen Appliances. Over the years the performances of the GM Delco based wind generator has been improved some what. There are 6 to 8 different companies building and selling this type wind generator. Most all claim ridicules, imposable high wattage outputs. Not so Wind Blue. I had conversation with Wind Blue. Doug at Wind Blue told me They do sell you product. Doug also told me the DC540 has a maximum output at 30 mph of 225 watts. If you would allow me or anyone that understands these machines to verify that your machine is different that would be great.

Over the years  of participating here and reading other wind power forums the majority of participants in the forums have concluded the practice of over rating these machines is just down right dishonest. Based on the science and personal experience these wattage figures are just imposable. Ive read so many post from people being very disappointed from the purchase of these type machines.

My concern has allways been, the reputation of small wind power is being degraded. People will buy a product expecting advertised performance and never get it.

I'd have positive feelings for you and your company if in my opinion you were just honest. As far as slander I have just shared my opinion about what you have presented to the public.

As earlyer stated, If you can prove your getting 800 watts from a 6 mph wind with 65" blades you will be my hero. Your printed paper states 800 watts at average 12.6 mph. Show us your machine doing this and you'll be everyones hero.

I must agree with another view. I've seen your machine in person. It is of the highest build quality. I'll give you that. I just wish the performance specification you offered  were of such quality.  I'm convinced you are using a Delco car alternator, because your partner Don showed me how the Wind BLue DC 540 fit the mounts of your machine. Even if you don't use the Wind Blue that  just happened to be on the assembly table and fit your mount exactly.

If as you say you're building your alternator yourself and you achive the wattage figures you are claiming. You are a genius sir. If you achive the wattage #s you claim I apologize and wish to shake your hand. But first you must prove those figures to me and the public in a 3rd party unbiased test.

I offer you either my wind tunnel testing facility and or my truck mounted wind generator testing procedure. I will offer the Capitol Press to observe and verify all test procedures and results.

Can you offer a customer/owner to verify the performance you are saying your machines does with 3rd party observation.

I think you have been offended by mine and this groups opinion of your performance claims.  Prove us wrong.

Jerry
 

Watt

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2011, 04:07:37 PM »
Are you kidding me?  

May I make a few suggestions to the installation of the turbine in the video from OWP site.

Move that 18" dish out of the way of that turbine.  You could possibly claim another few watts from turbulence.
Try moving that turbine 30 feet above that 18" dish.  You could possibly claim a few more watts.
Unless already done.  Mounting that roof bracket on rubber may help deaden the sound from that roof mounted turbine.  No gain in watts.

My OPINION is this;  Thank you Jerry and anyone else who stands up and uses their knowledge to help unwary buyers from deceptive claims such as OWP.

My CONCLUSSION came from OWP site. 
 

  
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 04:29:05 PM by Watt »

Rover

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2011, 06:17:34 PM »
Hi Gerryd.

I  can appreciate starting up a new wind power business.  Some have said that your web site has changed a bit in the last 48 hours. I never saw the original site so can't comment on it.

I do have  a question though, on the site you mention an optional item  "(optional) Grid Tie unit UL APPROVED for selling power back to the utility company. contact us for pricing."

I would like to know  bit more about that, what is the unit?.  Even a link to the unit would be nice. Lot of the people around here are interested in such a UL approved unit, and the cost.

thanks

Rover

« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 06:20:13 PM by rossw »
Rover
<Where did I bury that microcontroller?>

Watt

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2011, 08:28:39 PM »
"Some have said that your web site has changed a bit in the last 48 hours."

Yes, that site has changed significantly.  The video needs editing.  But....   Great start.

I'm not on the wagon regarding OWP.  However, the post pouncing on Jerry has demanded support of Jerry's mission. 

Jerry

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2011, 09:19:40 PM »
First of all I like to thank everyone here for the support. I feel that every has my back.

However I would also like to thank Gerryd for his quick responce to our concerns. Gerryd sent me a personal email. He was very polite and his conversation was of a very professional level.

I think this littel hi cup may actually be a good thing for OWP. If they continue to respond to our concerns in a positive manner it will certainly help them to become a well thought of company. I only hope the supplied data continues to become even more accurate.

I know if I were in there shoes I would be very uncomfortable. I may have not responded in such a polite manner. This all could be just a refinement of very small scale product?

Gerryd, as suggested you may want to redo or modify your video.

As you all know I've been testing 3 Delco alternator style  wind generators. During this time I wished I had a piece of property out in eastern Oregon near the big wind farms and enough money to purchase all of these Delco manufactures wind generators. put them all up on 40ft power poles 50ft apart and track and report there performance.  All under the exact wind conditions. Then give this data to the public. This might improve the published data available on these machines. Just sayin.

I mean no start up company any harm. I just want honesty. I don't even care about the price as long as you tell me the truth about performance. The market will take care of the price. Truth will take care of the company. There are just too many people that understand the performance level of machines like this to say any thing else.

Again Gerryd, thank you for being so gentle in your responces. And making some changes to your web page. This is a good start keep addressing our concerns here. There are many eyes watching here. (ears listening too)

Jerry

 

Gerryd

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2011, 12:52:50 AM »
Rover, the UL Approved inverter is from Outback they run anywhere from 1795.00 to 2100.00 depending on who you get it from. Here is a link to the people we get them from with the specs.

http://www.ecodirect.com/OutBack-GVFX3524-3500-Watts-24-Volts-p/outback-gvfx3524.htm

Outback offers different size units to fit the customers need.

Thanks
Gerryd

richhagen

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2011, 02:52:09 AM »
I must have been tired when I posted last night.  I wrote I was going to calculate out the available kinetic energy for 6 mile per hour wind and 65" blades and then went and calculated it for 12.5 miles per hour.  At least the figures were comparable to Sparweb's for that reason.  At any rate, the methodology is the same, and the results for six mile per hour wind yield 53 Watts maximum of kinetic energy available in the wind at that speed for that diameter of rotor.  Anything greater than that would not only be greater than the Betz limit (31.4 Watts), but it would also violate the First law of Thermodynamics.  If anyone can build a system that they can prove does that, I am sure they can earn themselves a Nobel Prize as they would turn the world of physics on its end.
A Joule saved is a Joule made!

Gerryd

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2011, 03:49:28 PM »
Thank you everyone for your concerns, I will be happy to present numbers to you as soon as they become available. I am sending our unit off for SWCC testing and certification in January 2012. Although it's an expensive route to follow, I want the numbers to reflect our product. As you all know, there are many factors that result in different numbers and many ways to come up with those numbers. Not to disrespect anyone but theories are just that, theories. I will continue to stand behind my product and we will let the professional testing agencies crunch the numbers.

Again thank you all for your concern and they are duly noted.

Jerry, thanks for your recent emails.

Gerryd

CaptainPatent

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2011, 04:20:36 PM »
Not to disrespect anyone but theories are just that, theories.

 ::) Perhaps if you don't intend to disrespect people you shouldn't be entirely dismissive of the mathematical and engineering knowledge they put forth in this thread and other threads. The combined knowledge of wind power of people on these boards spreads multiple lifetimes. And if you are able to squeeze out more than 10 watts of power on 65" blades in 6mph winds or 80 watts at 12.5mph, we'd love to hear it. In light of the current theory though - you know, Betz limit, the one that stands because nobody on earth living or dead has conclusively found any evidence to the contrary you know, that one...

Yeah - We'll just stick by that for the time being.

But hey, only a suggestion. I'll just continue going about my day strictly abiding by the theory of gravity.

rossw

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2011, 05:13:04 PM »
theories are just that, theories.

They're only theories until they're proven wrong. Then we have to find a better theory. The "theories" presented by board members above however, have not been shown to be flawed and are considered "sufficiently accurate" by every authorative source I know of.


Quote
I will continue to stand behind my product and we will let the professional testing agencies crunch the numbers.

Standing behind your product is admirable. However blind faith is somewhat unproductive.
"with respect", I strongly suggest you cease advertising what is clearly and demonstrably false claims for your machines performance, until such time as such independent agencies TEST the units. If you were say, 10% out, then little harm done. But you're more than an order of magnitude out, and I'm prepared to bet you good money that your claims of 800W in 6mph wind for a 56" machine are going to be PROVEN to be GROSSLY exaggerated.

Not sure what your "fair trading" laws are over there, but you could find your @rse in more trouble than your mouth can talk you out of very quickly.

Watt

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2011, 07:35:51 PM »
Just want to note that the video has been removed from front page of OWP site.  Thank you.

Gerryd

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2011, 07:54:31 PM »
Well I was trying to be polite and admit a error, seems that's irreverent.

 

richhagen

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Re: Betts Law question.
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2011, 08:30:57 PM »
The product might be well engineered, and may be of utility.  What I take issue with the way it is being presented.  I do not believe that it can output 15 times more power (800W at 6 MPH claimed) than is input into it (53W available in the wind at 6 MPH) on a continuous basis as this would be impossible under the laws of physics as we currently understand them, and I seriously doubt that it is able to save many people 70% on their energy bills if they have anywhere near a normal wind distribution where they live unless their utility gives away the power or they use only a tiny fraction of what a typical home uses.  According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration the average U.S. home uses about 958 KWh per month, which is an average of about 1,312 watts at any given instant.   A 65" diameter wind turbine simply is not going to generate anywhere near seventy percent of this, or 670.6 KWh per month.  This would be an average of about 918 watts continuous.  For the normal range of wind distributions in North America this is not going to occur. The way most utilities structure their bills you would actually have to generate more than that to save 70% off of your bill because a portion of the charges are usually fixed such as a meter charges for example for most companies.  My estimation is that you would be lucky to get a small fraction of the required energy from such a setup.  Please prove me wrong as I would be happy to know that there is an easy and workable solution to our nations energy woes.


Reference on average U.S. home electricity consumption:  http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97&t=3

It seems that while I was writing this Gerryd posted a reply.  I am happy to see the development of small wind turbines, but the prospective purchasers should be given realistic expectations of what such a system can and can not do.
A Joule saved is a Joule made!