Author Topic: Two USA manufacturers of Nickel Iron Batteries now exist ... Reviews?  (Read 54149 times)

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isoutar

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Two USA manufacturers of Nickel Iron Batteries now exist. 

Nickel Iron batteries were invented by Thomas Edison in 1902.   Nickel Iron cells have no lead content and produce no heavy metal pollution at all.   They also last in heavy use for 30 years and more.   Peter Demar, a USA researcher, has rejuvenated 80 year old cells using Edison's instructions from 1930.    He spoke at the last Batcon Conference in Florida in 2011 of his work and also in Amsterdam at a battery conference.

Business Websites of new USA manufacturers ...   

1/ http://www.zappworks.com/ USA manufacturer and supplier of NiFe batteries in Montana

2/ http://IronEdison.com  USA Supplier of NiFe battery systems, Resource for historical information

I cannot comment on the quality of the cells ... perhaps someone in the forum who has purchased a set from either company can comment on the quality of build?

Other manufacturers are appearing worldwide including a new one in India (working on a dry cell design) and Australia.

Lead Pollution Proven to be a Serious Issue in China and India

The potential severe lead acid pollution that can occur in developing countries if they use lead acid cells for backup of renewable energy is now proven.   The most extensive study is shown below in a study released form a USA University research project.   A study by Chris Cherry, assistant professor in civil and environmental engineering U of Tennessee, found that solar power heavily reliant on lead batteries has the potential to release more than 2.4 million tons of lead pollution in China and India!

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/31/solars-lead-balloon-of-pollution-in-developing-countries/

In Canada also the National Research Council is studying the dangers of widespread lead acid battery use in solar homes.

As we speak, members of the Rotary Club International are working on a solar school installation in Kenya using nickel iron cells fo avoid pollution.   I have spoken at trade shows for renewable energy in Africa and several principles of schools using solar energy came to discuss the problems caused by lead acid batteries.   They were desperate for solutions to this problem.   Africa appears to be a major new market for NiFe cells.

Ian Soutar
Nickel Iron Battery Association
Vancouver Island
Canada.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 03:55:27 PM by isoutar »

dnix71

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Zap's prices are about $1,000 per KWH for 12v which is roughly 10 times what I pay for flooded lead acid hybrid marine batteries. The advertised lifespan is 3 1/2 times over lead acid.

isoutar

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I did not want to say this but so far USA prices are way higher than Chinese prices!   Personally I care enough about price to only buy direct from a Chinese factory.    In Canada about a dozen systems have been installed during 2011 that I know of.   All were Chinese units.   I will be reporting on the success of these installations during the next couple of years as the research papers come in.

In Africa they went from utility (golf cart) lead acids to the high end ones guaranteed for 20 years of float charge.    All were a dramatic failure.   The more expensive lead acid batteries did not help the situation since complete discharges always happen from time to time.    I have spoken directly to the Principals of several African schools at a trade show recently.   They all reported that the failure of lead acid batteries and the resulting waste has already become a serious issue.   Serious enough that some schools are thinking of going back to using diesel generators.   The funding agencies building such schools and hospitals (such as the Rotary club) would pay any price to avoid bringing severe lead pollution to Africa.   The usual quoted figure for price difference is 3 to 4 times the price of lead acid. 

I found that I had to pay between 300 and 400% more for nickel iron and I am delighted to have avoided introducing lead pollution to my renewable energy plans in my house.   Mainly nickel iron use these days is not about price ... it is about the avoidance of both consumable technologies and the avoidance of pollution in developing countries that lack a recycling infrastructure.   Solar is no viable in these developing countries if lead acid storage is used.   Do a bit of research on African, Chinese and Indian installations.    The government of China is now using Nickel Iron in all their trains and they placed their orders with Changhong Batteries, which is a military supplier.    As such Changhong occasionally cannot deliver orders if a large government order is being filled.    My experience has been that they will warn you of a delay when you place an order.

Read the article about Solars Lead Balloon ... you will see it is proven to be a serious pollution issue to use lead acid batteries in developing countries.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/31/solars-lead-balloon-of-pollution-in-developing-countries/

This is only one of several such scientific studies in the last few years.   It is the most recent and most comprehensive studies showing that we cannot use lead acid in these countries.

I am totally ignorant of suppliers besides Changhong.   Has anyone ordered from some of the other companies in the USA or perhaps from Russia or Romania.    I have not been able to get prices from either country.

There will always be an approximate 4x difference in the price of the two battery technologies.   That is simply because nickel is 10 times the price of lead.    The cells are 1/2 iron and 1/2 nickel and the iron is almost worthless.  This would imply a 500% percent price difference but Chinese labour costs compensate for this to bring the difference down to 300-400%.    Some treat NiFe prices as an investment since the nickel content can be recycled ... however likely the NiFe cells will last so long that they will never get recycled in your lifetime!

My house batteries will outlive me.

I will let you guys continue with the discussion and will not post any more replies.   People can do this research on their own very easily without my help.

Ian Soutar
Vancouver Island
Canada.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 07:37:40 PM by isoutar »

Rabrsniver

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I have been in contact with Brandon at Iron Edison. He's very helpful and knowledgeable, but he is not a manufacturer. He buys from Changhong and resells them.

I don't know much about Zapp, but I read somewhere that they take old Edison cells, rebuild them and put them into new plastic cases. This may have changed.

John

richhagen

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Rabrsniver posted and confirmed part of what I suspected while I was typing, but I'll post it anyway:

I would agree that they are a bit pricey at present.  $900 plus shipping for a 100 amp hour 12V bank from Iron Edison, and I think those might be imported from somewhere for Iron Edison the literature mistakenly identified the cells as Nickel Cadmium at one point, so I suspect it might be a large format Nickel Cadmium battery manufacturer that changes out the plate chemistry of the positive plate for the Nickel Iron variant, although this is just speculation on my part.  Pocket plate technology is also commonly used in large format Nickel Cadmium batteries as well.

$3950 for 250 Amp hour from Zapp works, and I am not sure if they have shipped many new batteries, although according to their site they are manufacturing new batteries in Montana now, as they had been in the business of refurbishing and repackaging rebuilt Edison cells it seems until lately. 
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richhagen

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I started out thinking that the cost of the Nickel would only be a small fraction of the cost of the cells, but after doing the math and extrapolating out, I guess it does turn out reasonable percentage of the cost for a manufactured product. 

For an old Edison cell, the A4 model at 150 Amp Hours, there would have been 30@4.5" 1/4 inch perforated steel tubes filled with alternating layers of Nickel hydroxide and Nickel flake compressed in place, and there were 4 positive plates per cell.  There would therefore be a combined length of 540 inches and assuming a 1/4" interior diameter, or 26.5 cubic inches.  Now the literature I saw for Edison's batteries says they were filled in alternating layers of Nickel hydroxide and nickel flake, each 1/32 inch deep, or 50% by volume metallic Nickel and 50% by volume nickel hydroxide. 

Nickel Hydroxide has a density of 4.10 g/cubic cm and 13.25 cubic inches equals 217.13 cubic cm, which equates to a mass of 890.23 grams per cell of Nickel Hydroxide. 

Similarly for metallic Nickel, excluding that used in plating of all of the steel components for the moment, since Nickel has a density of about 8.91 g/cm, the mass of Nickel used by Edison would have been about 1934.63 grams.  So, in one of Edison's old 150 Amp Hour cells, we would have about 6 pound of metallic Nickel equivalent in the components, and I am sure less than one pound in plating on the steel parts, and with today's price of $8.56 per pound for pure nickel, that would be about 60 dollars per cell, or $600 per bank of ten for 12V.

Now it may be that the interior diameter of those 1/4 inch tubes was a bit less than 1/4 inch, which could effect those values a bit, and the tubes were pinched off at the end which should have reduced the volume a bit, but if we give the benefit of the doubt, and extrapolate a rough equivalent Nickel content per Amp hour for the Iron Edison Batteries, and the Zapp Works Batteries then:

For the Iron Edison, from Changhong apparently, it would work out to be $400 U.S. in Nickel per 12V 100 Amp Hour bank which they list at $900 plus shipping, or 44% of the batteries price.

For the U.S. made Zapp Works it would work out to be $1000 U.S. in Nickel per 12V 250 Amp Hour bank, which they list at $3950 U.S., or 25.3% of the batteries price.

Now these are only rough estimates, and are most likely off the mark even for an Edison battery by a significant amount.  The current manufacturers might get better or worse use of the Nickel content of the batteries depending upon their design, and of course, at least for Iron Edison/Changhong batteries, they use pocket plates for the Nickel Hydroxide it appears, so their is a difference in the plates design as well.  There are a few other current importers of these batteries, but most seem to trace back to Changhong battery works as the original source.
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isoutar

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Excellent bit of detective work.   Thanks for the posting.   

The nickel iron cells are much more complex to manufacture than lead acid, which helps also to explain the substantial non-nickel costs.   The original Edison cell is more complex to manufacture than the Changhong Design.   The Edison design of cell is much much tougher.    I doubt my set of Changhong Cells will last more than 40 years.   The plastic,  even battery plastic, breaks down slowly.

The exact details of the manufacturing in 1925 was put out as a textbook by Edison's company.   If you want the details, search for his textbook.

Ian Soutar
Vancouver Island
Canada.

SteveCH

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Everything I've heard and found out about the US suppliers of nickel iron batteries echoes what others have said about the source. That is, except for Zapp, the batteries available are re-badged ChangHongs. Zapp, last time I spoke with them, rebuilds and refurbishes USA-made Edisons. These haven't been made here since the seventies, so there is a finite supply of old ones to fix up. I read somewhere that Zapp is planning to or, perhaps, already is, manufacture their own, new Edisons. However, I haven't talked to them in over a year, so I don't know...

I have had my ChangHongs since last Sept. or so. They are running my PV-powered home very nicely. Compared with lead acid, they are a pleasure to work with as they are so much lighter in weight and can be discharged to zero without damage. I replaced a large [1875 amp hr.] set of forklift batteries that were 22 years old with a 700 amp hr. bank of the nickel iron. We could have used a larger set, but price dictated I make some compromises.

For the first few months, I wondered whether I should have figured a way to purchase a larger set, as we sometimes arose in the a.m. to find the voltage of the bank down to 11 volts or around there. This was following a day of snow and/or cloudy weather. However, further experience has shown us they are ok. Being able to discharge them to that level without damage to batteries allows one to make do with a smaller-capacity bank. I'll know more after a full year, with all the vagaries of seasonal weather, but so far I am quite pleased that we made the switch.

We have had no technical or electronic or electrical problems and have had to make no changes in our appliances, etc. We have a combination of DC stuff ['fridge, freezer, lights, fans] and AC [computers, TV, hand tools, etc.] and all are working normally and well. The only changes we made in our system were to purchase a new Outback inverter to replace our old Trace, which could not be adjusted to handle the different max voltage put into the Edisons and a Mate to do the adjusting.

dloefffler

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Would you be so kind as to give the title of the Edison textbook?

Dennis

Bruce S

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SteveCH;
Very nice read of your system.

My biggest problem is being able to purchase just 1 1.2V battery to test.
I really don't want to sink that much money into a 12V set just yet.
IF you have (1) I can purchase let me know, I have a shipping dock and can handle the shipping costs easily.
Thanks for the input.
Bruce S
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XeonPony

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Dam isotar you're a local! well not quite 2 ferries away from me!  I am a big proponent of NickelIron batteries my self. just wish I had the money!
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!

richhagen

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dloefffler, I am not sure if this is the same manual that Isotaur was referring to, but, the booklet I referenced is titled:  The Edison Alkaline Storage Battery, and it was published in 1924.  The good news is that it is available in its entirety on the internet as it is a part of the Google books collection of public domain books that they have digitized.  If you plug the title into a search engine it should point you to it.  Rich
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Yianie123.

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Does anybody have a contact they can share for ChangHongs batteries?

thirteen

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SteveCH
You said you are doing with a less ah bank than you had before. I am looking at a battery bank of 24v 1200ah. I am looking into getting the nickle/iron or reg flood acid batteries. What did you need to adjust for using a smaller ah bank. There will be times I will not be at my place for up to 3 months at a time and discharges can happen.  I will also have charging problems in the mid winter months (2) where I will not have much solar and my creek sometimes freezes so when my micro hydro is put in in 2 years I will still have problems in mid winter. So NI batteries look promising for the possiblility of unwanted abuse of my bank. Any suggestions?
MntMnROY 13

Off grid in Tonopah

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If one wanted to start with a smaller battery bank and add to it later, how well do these batteries mix and match with age?  I know lead acid battery banks are less than optimal if replacing a bad battery in an older set with a new one. If this is not an issue with the Nickel Iron battery bank you could start small and add over time. If indeed you want to look at it as an investment, than adding to the nest egg over time is how it's done.

nifeman

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I just joined the group yesterday and want to make a few comments after reading from the beginning of his post:

1. To Ian Soutar:  I cannot believe that you left out a company, BeUtilityFree, Inc , in your initial list of "manufactures" of nickel iron cells that started this post in the first place. I think you know that BeUtilityFree has been importing nickel iron cells since 1995! No one at this point in time manufactures NEW nickel iron cells in the USA (Zapp claims to but no one I know of has seen this "new" cell. ) BeUtilityFree has the most experience and has sold more nickel iron cells (10,000 cells they claim on there web site nickel iron page) http://www.beutilityfree.com/Electric/Ni-Fe. than ANYONE else in the USA.

2. IRON EDISON, all they do is the same thing BeUtilityFree does. They buy cells from Changchong and rebrand them. However, there is a several differences between the two companies. IRON EDISON is still learning and BeUtilityFree has the experience and has been in business far longer than the start up. Price wise there prices are about the same, but BeUtilityFree has a great track record. After all no one would be selling these cells for since 1995 if they did not work in the field. One VERY big difference is their warranties. Another difference is the type of plastic cells they offer. BeUtilityFree has a 15 year warranty on both material and workmanship and battery capacity and IE has a 2 year warranty on just material and workmanship only. BIG difference! If I where in the market for new nickel iron cells I would go with a company that has been around and also gives the best warranty in the nickel iron world.

2. Zapp works buys up ORIGINAL Nickel iron cells , takes them apart, cleans the plates, reassembles them and puts them in new polypropylene ( PP) cases (a picture is on their web site) of what there new "cell" like. AS for there "new" nickel iron cells I believe that they are still a very long ways from actually bringing anything to market. They have been advertising there "new " cells for about a year now on there web page. What they are trying to do is simple. Collect down payments and using the down payments to fund the initial project. It appears to me that they have not had enough people "bite' and therefore nothing really new seems to be happening there. Developing a new nickel iron cells will take MILLIONS of dollars and research and I do not think there organization has that type of capital. Just my opinion.

3. Buying a repackaged original Edison cell. The question I would ask myself is why buy a cell that could already be 40 years old or older  (they stopped making the original cells in 1972) when you can buy NEW cells? The thing that get s me is that Zapp only provides a 2 year warranty on there repackaged cells. No a great vote of confidence!!! a 15 year warranty vs 1a 2 year? No brainer!

3, To STEVE CH: I love reading accounts of people who are using the nickel iron battery. That is where the rubber meets the road and is the true "reality" show. No bull , just the facts, good and bad. But I am curious as to who you bought them from. Did you buy the directly form China? Would be nice to know and surprised you did not say in your post, then who asked? LOL!

4. To Off grid in Tonopah: You ask "how well these mix and match with age"? I can tell you this. I know someone who has over a 12 year old set of nickel iron cells and had a few cells go south, the weak cells where pulled, new cells with the same Ah capacity where installed and the battery pack is working great. This I do not believe can EVER be done with a lead acid battery set. So part of the appeal and reality of nickel iron cells is that they have unprecedented flexibility when it comes  to keeping a battery bank working for a very long time. So when I hear "they are to expensive" one can always start with a smaller set (less expensive) and add to the set as time and money allow. I have seem countless incidences of lead acid cells failing way before their lifetime is up and you have to scrap the whole ball of wax..oh it happens more then the lead acid people admit to!

Over and out for now!


SteveCH

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In response to the above post, I purchased my ChangHong batteries from BeUtilityFree.

I have no problem recommending them [BeUtilityFree], it just wasn't part of my earlier post in response to the ongoing discussion. I have since purchased a few other things from the co. and will purchase more in the future.

The batteries are working well. They've been up and running now for roughly 7 months. They do, as everyone says, use much more water than my lead acid banks of the past. I installed Hydocaps on the cells and the water usage did not decrease. I have not figured out why, yet. They do get quite warm, so I know they are working. They just don't save me any water. I have left one of the ten cells without a Hydrocap to compare, and the water usage is the same in all cells. I am thinking that the caps are at least minimizing the chance of hydrogen build-up and plan to call Hydrocap soon and discuss it with them.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 01:01:50 PM by SteveCH »

nifeman

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Steve,

Thanks for the reply! I have heard many good things about BeUtilityFree and they have been around new and old nickel iron cell the longest of any company out there.

Yes very strange info on the Hydrocaps. The reason that I have never liked Hydrocaps is because they do not last that long. The platinum in the caps eventually gets used up and you end up having a worthless cap. I sure would question them about why they do not seem to be working as you thought. I have never owned any. I always thought the whole idea is to have them recombine the H and O and put the pure water back into the cell. Something is just is not right. Maybe they are just designed for lead acid cells. Perhaps the mist from the potassium hydroxide solution is causing issues with the catalyst? I have to also assume that you let them know you where using them with nickel iron cells otherwise I am sure you would not have purchased them. I am also curious as to know how you adapted them to your cell openings. I understand the Hydrocaps caps are designed for 1/4 turn lead acid vents and the BeUtilityFree cells have a much smaller opening and do not have 1/4 turn vent openings. The BeUtilityFree cells have fine thread flip top caps. The two do not match up. I assume you bought type of adaptor?

An alternative to Hydrocaps is a battery cap self watering system that should easily outlast the Hydrocaps. One company I know of has had there caps on a large NiCd system since 1989 and still working fine. A NiCd has basically the same electrolyte as a nickel cadmium cell.

Let us know what they have to say so if someone is considering using them on nickel iron cells they will know what they are "getting into".

Bruce S

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nifeman;
 The self-watering for NiCds people had/has a person on this forum too :-). I have not seen him post here  in a while, but do a search on some of the older posts, his posting should pop up.

Cheers;
Bruce S
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SteveCH

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You do not need an adaptor for Hydrocaps. You can send a sample cap to them and they then make up their caps with the proper thread or bayonet base or whatever you have. I was concerned that the Chinese batteries would have some oddball metric threaded cap, but Hydrocap was able to find the threaded piece just fine. The ChangHongs are shipped with a threaded plug fit into the cells, I suppose to protect the more breakable regular cap you use after filling with electrolyte. I sent Hydrocap one of the plugs and they were able to match the threads that way.

I have previous experience with Hydrocap in using them for my former lead acid banks. The C & D forklift bank I had, 1875 amp hr big ones, had the same set of Hydrocaps on them for the 22 yr. I used them, and they worked fine til the end. In fact, when I sold the batteries, both the cells and the Hydrocaps were still working. So, at least in my experience, they last(ed) a long time.

Yes, Hydrocap was fully aware of my Ni Fe batteries and we spoke several times  about it...they had a number of questions and made sure they had all the answers before they committed to make them for me.

nifeman

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Steve CH,

I think you are the only person I have ever heard of that their Hydrocaps lasted some 22 years. So that being the case then I am sure you cannot figure out why these caps don't seem work the same as they did on your lead acid cells. I assume that they did save watering on your lead acids cells. And them knowing that you would be putting them on nickel iron cells would seem to indicate that they would work otherwise why would they sell you something that would not work?

Seems to make sense to me to send in the type caps you have to them so they could make the correct cap.

Well once you finely talk to them please post what they have to say as to why they do not seem to be working for you. I am sure others who are considering Hydrocaps for their nickel iron cells if they plan or have them already want to know if they work or not. After all if they do not work as advertised what would be the point of buying them?

Maybe they did not make the right cap, since I think all the caps are custom made? For example,  maybe there is not enough catalyst in them or something else. Just a thought.


Ontheronix

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Does someone has knowledge of dealers/manufacturers in Europe?

omweg

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Hello, I just found a reseller for Europe:
http://www.grosol.de
I have asked them for information about warrenty and prices for a 24Vplt package, it is just near my place in Holland near the German border.
My lead acid batteries are now 5 years and they are starting to get less capacity so I'm planning the NiFe batteries hopefully i can afford myself a useful capacity.
the planet of my dreams is bulging at the seams

jlt

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I have about 100 a6 cells and most of them still hold a charge. I have used them for the last 20 years.

           The main problem with them has been the large voltage swing .Using 9 cells my inverter would shut down from under volts before the batts were depleted .  And using 10 cells the inverter would shut down from over voltage when they were charging.

       I am now using a small 175 watt that will reset automatically. I am using it with 10 cells and using it to power several compact florescent bulbs for lighting. I usually don't get much wind at night
so it works pretty good.
   My other system is 48v with a outback grid tie inverter. With a 12 ft wind turbine and 400 watt solar

nifeman

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Awesome! I love to see people still using original nickel iron cells! A testament to their longevity!

If you contact me directly I can tell you exactly what year your cells where manufactured. I have an original Edison Battery Storage CODE card that once you find out the LETTER code on top of the cell I can tell you what year the cells where manufactured. The letter code is either a single capital letter or two capital letters together. For example if you had a MM stamped on the top of the cell that cell was manufactured in 1943.

Most people do not know this CODE card ever existed but it did and that was how dealers and customers knew EXACTLY how old their cells where. I am sure you would like to know as well.

Have you ever tested the battery capacity of the cells you have or ever changed out the electrolyte in those 20 years of use? It would be great if you could test them with a amp hour meter that would verify AMP hour capacity.

I am confused. Do you use these nickel iron batteries for both your 12V system and your 48V system? Nickel iron cells generally do not work well in a 12V system because most 12V inverter have very little if any voltage adjustment capabilities, but they can work as Bruce H has a set of 12V that he bought form BeUtilityFree, so they can work on a 12V system under the right circumstances.

nifeman

omweg

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@ontheronix after the question of resellers in Europe
I got some information after I mailed Grosol in Germany, the actual reseller is http://www.microenergie.com/ in Germany. They sell the ChangHong cells and they did some test and measurements themselves see this paper http://shop-microtherm.com/pdf/batteries/NiFe_de.pdf
the planet of my dreams is bulging at the seams

jlt

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With my 48v system I use 4 RV type battery's .And they are only on float.Held at 53 v.

  Unless I have a grid failure . Out back said there inverter was only to be used with lead acid battery's.
   
  I have replaced the electrolyte In a few of my Edison cells But haven't found a source for any more.

                                                        JLT