Author Topic: Lots Of Nothing  (Read 33816 times)

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Yianie123.

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Lots Of Nothing
« on: March 31, 2012, 11:56:29 AM »
I am a victim of the PMA windturbine manufacture that gave the open voltage reading x the 24v amp draw, would equal 500-800 watts.  Now after I learned a bit, I realize that I'm really getting 20 to 70 watts (in a good wind).  Lucky for me a real ugly storm came through and destroyed the PMA windmills (claimed on homeowners insurance).   So, now I have a 1000w, 10.5v-28v grid tie inverter, 45A-12/24/48v charge/diversion controller (TRI-STAR 45),  2-1200w-12/24v heating elements.  Any ideas on what to do now?  Is there a PMA that will really put out 1000w, in a 30-45mph wind, at 10.5v-28v?  Still want to do something.  Thank you!!

ghurd

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2012, 06:51:01 PM »
victim of the PMA windturbine manufacture that gave the open voltage reading x the 24v amp draw

What is the brand name?


in a 30-45mph wind

Thats a LOT of wind!
Most units are designed to furl at about 25MPH.
The difference between 20 and 30 MPH is huge.
G-
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Yianie123.

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2012, 07:30:51 PM »
Here are some of the companies (google):missourri wind and solar, hydrogen appliances wind turbines, survival unlimited.

Bruce S

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2012, 07:58:32 AM »
Here are some of the companies (google):missourri wind and solar, hydrogen appliances wind turbines, survival unlimited.
I think GHURD was wanting to know which one you specifically had that was destroyed.
I'm both happy and sad for you.
Happy you are now the wiser, had it insured and sad for the rest of the equipment , like baldes and wires that probably got messed up in the process.
Bruce S
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Yianie123.

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2012, 11:04:28 AM »
I purchased 4-500W PMA from Missourri Wind and Solar.  They were a year old when I purchased them, but being PMA's using alternator bearings, I would say that I still had 100,000's of hours left on the bearings.

fabricator

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2012, 06:53:13 PM »
For non builders it seems like a lot of guys have pretty good luck with the right DC servo motor, I think there should be a sticky telling people to totally stay away from anything that looks like an automotive alternator.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 07:20:25 PM by fabricator »
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

rain1224

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2012, 07:08:17 PM »
Good luck for you to solve the problem.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2012, 07:12:45 PM »
Here are some of the companies (google):missourri wind and solar, hydrogen appliances wind turbines, survival unlimited.

Hmmmm......  Those are the guys that make YouTube videos showing how impressive it is that their blades go around ("really crank" I believe is what they call it).

To get the power you're looking for at that voltage you're going to need a bigger rotor with real blades on it.  And the little bearings and shaft in those modified Delco 10SI's won't handle a real turbine rotor.  If you would provide more specifics on why you want to generate your power at 35 mph wind speed instead of more normal wind speeds perhaps I'd better understand your needs.
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fabricator

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2012, 07:19:27 PM »
Or anything with more than three blades, especially if they look really funky, nine blades? You gotta be kidding me, that thing would be beating the air to a froth.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 07:21:41 PM by fabricator »
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

Isaiah

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2012, 07:20:54 PM »
we use ac servo motors here and convert (rectify) it to 3 phase dc.
 do the math on the volts amps and rpms and a servo is hard to beat. there is a lot of problems with the gm alternators .some use the original rectifier  which is not efficient enough and has corrosion problems. you have a steel bolt running through a aluminium   heat sink connected to a copper wire, so then you get the phiszo electric corrosion
 some sell a slip ring that uses the gm  brushes and the wire in them is not heavy enough.

fabricator

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2012, 07:31:48 PM »
we use ac servo motors here and convert (rectify) it to 3 phase dc.
 do the math on the volts amps and rpms and a servo is hard to beat. there is a lot of problems with the gm alternators .some use the original rectifier  which is not efficient enough and has corrosion problems. you have a steel bolt running through a aluminium   heat sink connected to a copper wire, so then you get the phiszo electric corrosion
 some sell a slip ring that uses the gm  brushes and the wire in them is not heavy enough.

Are you sure you don't use three phase AC servo motors and rectify to DC?
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

Yianie123.

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2012, 09:07:13 PM »
I live In Valparaiso, IN. 10 miles south of Lake Michigan.  The wind is normally 5-10 mph. About 50% in the winter the wind is 20-35 mph.  It just seems that the wind should be used for something other than taking shingle off.  I thought that I would use wind to charge batteries, the use the grid tie inverter to drain the batteries.  Lucky to get 35 watts from 1 deep cycle marine battery.  So, again I ask, what to do?

ChrisOlson

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2012, 10:09:33 PM »
What sort of setup do you have there?  It's a bit confusing because I read this thread a few days ago and I thought we told you not to buy those.
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,146565.msg1004044.html#msg1004044

But you did anyway.  And now a storm came thru before they even had one week on the tower and they're all wrecked?  All four of 'em?  Homeowner's insurance will pay for a car alternator mounted on a pole if the wind blows it over?
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SparWeb

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2012, 11:26:27 PM »
... So, now I have a 1000w, 10.5v-28v grid tie inverter,
 45A-12/24/48v charge/diversion controller (TRI-STAR 45), 
2-1200w-12/24v heating elements. 
Any ideas on what to do now?
 Is there a PMA that will really put out 1000w, in a 30-45mph wind, at 10.5v-28v? 
Still want to do something. 
Thank you!!

Quote
So, again I ask, what to do?

We don't know what you should do.  We can only give you suggestions.

Have you considered a Hugh Piggott project?  The 8-foot diameter WT could suit your needs.

Mine will do what you ask, too, but it's a pretty unique WT, so I think what you're really asking is "What can I buy?"

Try Home Power magazine.  Look for reviews of small wind turbines.  You're looking for the smallest of the small that they review.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

fabricator

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2012, 05:54:32 AM »
And I hate to break it to you but the inverter you have, it's not likely any utility in the country would allow you to tie it to their grid, my advice, buy a system from Chris. And completely forget about grid tie, it's a scam also.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

Isaiah

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2012, 08:24:26 AM »
Fabricator,and All,
 Yes they are 3 phase and at this point in time we are running the 3 phase down and rectifiers are down here.
 The servo motors are built well and have good bearings in them.
If a person watches ebay and some of the salvage places you can get a good buy on them in comparison to buying magnets and building your own.
 I have 4 servo's and paid less than you would for a   redone gm 10si's called wind turbines.
 One thing we all have to remember is that on ebay and other places there are people out there selling things and the don't
really care if the item dose what it is supposed to do .
So we have to to our homework and know what we are about before we purchase.
 My son just learned the same thing with some very expensive car parts off ebay.
 Isaiah

ChrisOlson

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2012, 09:54:33 AM »
We don't know what you should do.  We can only give you suggestions.

SparWeb summed this up pretty well with this statement.  Grid-tying car alternators is an exercise in futility.  A "single marine deep cycle that only puts out 35 watts" means the battery can only deliver 3 amps.  This, I don't understand.  If the grid-tie inverter is one of the Chinese plug-it-in-the-wall type, then it's not a viable (or even legal) grid-tie setup in the first place.  If the inverter is a real UL1741 compliant grid-tie unit, and you have a good wind resource (which it sounds like you might), then spending the money on a decent wind turbine is probably worthwhile.  But no matter how you cut it, you're going to have $10 Grand in a real grid-tied wind turbine that generates enough power to make the project worthwhile.

With grid-tie systems it's all about money and payback time on your investment in equipment.  If the equipment doesn't generate enough power to pay for itself, then it's not worth having it and you may as well buy power from the utility.  Grid-tie systems typically don't pay off because it's more expensive to generate your own power than it is to buy it from the utility.

So, like Spar said, we can't tell you what to do.  And when it comes to suggestions, I know of no viable wind power systems designed for grid-tie that are going to be able to be done for less than about $10 Grand by the time you buy the inverter, wiring, tower, turbine itself and go thru all the inspections and requirements by the utility to be able to do it.

If you're off-grid, or have grid power and are building an off-grid battery backup system to compliment your grid power and run some circuits in your home, then it's a different ballgame and there's lots of options.  But that's evidently not the case here.
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Chris

Isaiah

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2012, 10:20:25 AM »
You need to check with your local utility company to see what they are paying for your electricity!
 They may only pay wholesale.
 something to keep in mind.
I varies state to state and and company to company.
 Some company's don't like to buy your power and make it rough as they can on you to comply.
 Nothing is as it seems
 Isaiah
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 12:21:58 PM by Isaiah »

MaryAlana

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2012, 11:27:01 AM »
Depends on the state for payback, in MN it is retail.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2012, 02:42:37 PM »
Depends on the state for payback, in MN it is retail.

In Wisconsin it is average retail.  And then they bolt on an "administrative fixed charge" of $40 a month, meaning at 15 cents/kWh they get the first 267 kWh you generate every month for free.  Without the grid-tie, the "administrative fixed charge" is $7 a month.

To put that in perspective, say you have a wind turbine that generates 200 watts, 24 hours a day.  That wind turbine has to run continuously at 200 watts output for two months to pay for the fixed charge for the first month.
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Yianie123.

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2012, 08:50:13 PM »
Chris, these turbines were purchased years ago.  So, if I would of gotten the same advice years ago, I would not of purchased the turbines.  My goal is to generate power on very windy, cold, winter nights.  It sounds like I may have to start from scratch.  Can a DIY turbine be built and connected to the grid?  I suspect that it can, but it would be all about the inverter.  Something with a wide range of voltage input.  Can anyone direct me as to if it is possible to build a windmill that can be grid tie and what inverters would work well?

ChrisOlson

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2012, 10:38:33 PM »
It all depends on your utility company.  You'd have to check with them to see what their requirements are.

Yes, a homebuilt turbine can be grid-tied with an approved UL1741 inverter.  I believe the Aurora inverters are the ones that are most commonly used for that with wind power.  You can also use Outback or Xantrex units with a battery backup.

The Aurora has MPPT in it and will allow the turbine to run at various voltages within its input limits.  Battery backup grid-tied systems are like any other battery charging system.
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fabricator

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2012, 06:39:16 AM »
Why not make it a goal to generate power whenever the wind blows? And seriously, ditch the grid tie, the turbine you are likely to build will never, ever put any meaningful power into the grid, the permits, inspections and equipment required to tie into the grid will take forever be paid back by what you put into the grid.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

Yianie123.

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2012, 07:05:26 AM »
Ok, how does one build a turbine that will make power at any wind speed.  Are you talking about straight connect to batteries?    Please explain.  Really interested.

thirteen

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2012, 07:45:23 AM »
Get your neighbors together and build your own systems and grid tie them together in one area say 6 people. Or as it has been proposed by my neighbors since we are off grid totally,  together build your own neighborhood system for all to use. Combining it to one grid tired location this leaves the power company only one area to connect to there the system. Ours would be a water and solar combonation. 10 families and $168,000.00 is proposed where I will be. There is already a diversion dam and concrete water way where the generator will be located. It was used as a power source for a small saw mill 50+ years ago.  Just an idea to play with or toss.
MntMnROY 13

fabricator

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2012, 11:11:22 AM »
Wow! That sounds like a sure fire way to turn friends into enemies.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

fabricator

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Re: Lots Of Nothing
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2012, 11:13:58 AM »
Ok, how does one build a turbine that will make power at any wind speed.  Are you talking about straight connect to batteries?    Please explain.  Really interested.

I should have said, whenever the wind blows hard enough for your machine to cut in, this site is loaded with examples, just read.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.