Author Topic: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions  (Read 10567 times)

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spottrouble

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Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« on: April 25, 2012, 01:29:36 PM »
Hi everybody

Did a few dozen hours reading here this past week, one of the things I picked up was that servo motors work well, that left me lamenting the fact that I've never seen any of those locally. Stopped in at the local scrapyard yesterday lo and behold there was a big industrial robot, snagged 3 big Fanuc servos off of it 8). Got the first one apart last night (except rotor), removed encoder and the brake assembly, this left me with 4 loose wires (2 for brake, 2 for encoder), should I just cap these off?

Motors are 1 Fanuc - 20S
Trq stall 23nm
Amp stall 20
2000 rpm
146V

and 2 Fanuc 20F
Trq stall 23nm
Amp stall 20
2000 rpm
140V

Tonights project is building a small driveshaft to use for testing generators in the lathe, so I can compensate for shaft misalignment. Curious how others are connecting their generators for testing with a lathe?

tecker

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2012, 02:46:37 PM »
Here's a listing that might help I'm not a member
but page 57 looks promising
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/28704289/Fanuc-AC-Servo-Motor-Beta-Series-Descriptions

Isaiah

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2012, 06:05:45 PM »
If possible I put mine between centres and I have chucked on the nut for 1 end.
 I like to stack some wood under the outside housing for safety  in case something should come loose.   you can find the three wires you need for your turbine and cut the rest if you wish but some are playing with using the break.
you should get charging voltage around 205 rpm or so .
 What I do here is  I have several old carbon pile battery load testers and  you can turn the servo in the lathe and crank down the load on the tester.
 This will show what its doing under load, Will make the lathe work also
 I don't quite understand the shaft misalignment?
 Post a picture if you can?
 Those look like good motors keep us posted on your progress?
Dose yours have the tapers shaft? I have cut them straight enough for a hub and I have turned a taper in the hub for them the gears that come with some of those fanuc's are hard. go slow and safe.I had a ball of wires and meters once, don't want to do that again
Isaiah

SparWeb

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2012, 10:01:53 PM »
Just clamp the shaft in the chuck, it the shaft isn't tapered.
Done it several times now, and I get good data using a lathe.
Make sure you set up an independent speed measurement, like a bicycle spedometer.  The RPM of the lathe is not exactly what is printed on the headstock gear levers.  Under heavy load the lathe slows down so it definitely won't be the labelled speed.
Measure torque with a scale and a lever arm attached to the motor casing.  I realized after doing the test once that by running the lathe in reverse, the lever swings down on the working side of the lathe.  That way you can put a bathroom scale on the table beside the lathe and presto, torque measured.

Dig through my stuff here:   www.sparweb.ca   I wrote up a lot of detail about doing these tests.  Pictures will help visualize what I'm going on and on about.

I took some videos and put them on youtube, too.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

birdhouse

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2012, 11:19:06 PM »
spottrouble-

those motors are AWESOME!  my mill is based on the same motors that you have two of.  upon bench testing i got 12V (not 14.4) at 120 rpm, and 24v at 235rpm.  . 

i put an 8.5' three blade set on it with a design tsr of 6.5 and it RIPS!  seen over 800W on a 24V system out of it.   considering the bergy xl1 is rated at 1000w with a 8.2' dia blade set, i think i'm doing pretty damn good!  especially since i don't have mppt on my mill. 

my blades are a bit thick, as i fiberglassed them and painted them with two part epoxy paint four times.  i should've carved them thinner if i had known how thick the painting/epoxy/fibrerglass was going to be! 

run with these motors, theyre good ones!









http://www.youtube.com/user/boschme?feature=mhee

adam

spottrouble

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2012, 12:41:14 AM »
I did not even think of going between centers, duh, of course not sure I could get one of the Fanucs between centers without some help either. How are people using the brake in these things? Being that it is engaged until energized, I'd think it would suck power?

Made up the driveshaft tonight, used some u-joints from a Subaru steering rack, made it so I can change out the driven end as I test motors with different shaft sizes.  My line of thinking was just using wood blocks to get shaft close to center, hence the misalignment, generator gets strapped down to lathe bed.

Of course after getting the driveshaft built I had to try it, only thing ready to go in was a treadmill motor (second treadmill motor mentioned in my first posting in "The Pub"). This treadmill motor is a Star-tac, the OCV numbers look pretty good, guess I need to check amps next

RPM        Volts
28            9
45            14.5
70            23
83            30
112          37.5
134          49
211          77

birdhouse

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2012, 09:08:25 AM »
Quote
How are people using the brake in these things? Being that it is engaged until energized, I'd think it would suck power?

i yanked the brake clean out of my servo.  didn't want to use electricity to keep in in the running position. 

adam

spottrouble

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2012, 08:38:52 PM »
Ok I need a little help on checking amperage and load testing. Title says Fanuc, but lets just start with the DC treadmill thats still sitting in the lathe. Not sure when I can make it to Harbor Fright again, but there is always ebay which gets delivered to my door. Someone recommended the "carbon pile" battery testers, and I've seen numerous references to amp meters with "carbon piles" but I honestly don't know what your talking about. I've seen battery testers with heating elements, is this the same thing? Saw some neat old AC and DC Weston  ampmeters on ebay, looked like what Sparweb was using on his lathe tests, but I'm just not sure what I need.

So for checking amps, do I put the meter inline with the + or - side????????

I have some panel mount ampmeters, they read up to 50 amps, can I use one of these? Sorry, electronics is not my strong point.

Isaiah

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2012, 10:52:45 PM »
If you have one of those panel meters hooked up backwards it will show - instead of + one of those 50 amp should do what you want.
 We did hook one up with a gm alt rectifier for testing the 3 phase but that gm rectifier is not real efficient.
 In the automobile they are not worried about a little loss like we would be and the alt turns a lot more RPM's than the wind turbine will!
The carbon pile is a bit expensive  and adjustable load.
They are more of a professional unit. I got both of mine used so keep an eye out at yard sales and swap meets.
There are some of the carbon pile on ebay also.
 These are not the ones you see for around 19.95  with a couple elements in them that you hold the load 10 seconds.

spottrouble

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2012, 01:04:47 PM »
I looked at volt/amp meters last night till my head hurt, still not sure what I'm looking for. Searching "carbon pile" on ebay brought up lots of ads for battery testers, but not volt/amp meters. Searching "amp meter" brought up thousands of results, internal shunt, external shunt, no mention of shunt, digital, analog, made just for wind turbines (just don't disconnect battery or it will fry disclaimer?), enough to completely confuse me.

Dug through electronics box and found a panel mount 0-50/0-250 VDC meter, a 30-0-30 automotive amp meter(looking for something better), and some big diodes. Now I'm trying to figure out basic circuit design, I know it can't be that hard, but I'm stumped, google brings up worthless hits for battery chargers for sale. I can always use the regular digital voltmeter to read voltage, so I just need a basic generator/amp meter/diode/battery charging circuit design so I can do some load testing to figure out what I've got.
Thanks
Kristi :)

jlt

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2012, 01:42:12 PM »
      There is no need to buy a carbon pile tester.
If you are testing the tread mill motor all you need is to hook the diode in the positive line.and an amp meter  in series in the neg line. hook the volt meter in parallel across the pos and neg line.

         Hook it up to a battery and test.

SparWeb

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2012, 04:59:37 PM »
Yes youre only looking for an "ammeter" hookup and that goes in series with the battery cable.
I used a shunt for accurate current measurements, the wattmeter was only for fun and for show.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

Isaiah

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2012, 05:47:24 PM »
 sparweb is right you don't need the carbon pile.
it is a battery tester, and what it will do is put a maximum load on a battery to see if it will deliver  its amp rating.
either one of those meters should give you a start. some of those Chinese digital volt  meters you see on ebay don't last real long.
 those cheap multi meters the probe s aren't too good and fail  soon. hope I didn't confuse you
 If the battery you hook  your motor to is full up it will hit cut in sooner than if the battery is  50% discharged.

dave ames

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2012, 11:07:57 PM »

Yep, the measured current into a battery that needs charging is the idea. Even a $2 meter on the 10 amp setting will do.

The RPM to VOC readings in #5 above seem out of whack by a factor of 10?

Was there a spec tag on that dc motor? or a part number.. 260-0904?

Other readings you could do (with the dc motor) would be running it into some power resistors to get an idea of the internal resistance and performance curve.

Looks like you lucked out with the servos and might be able to steal/copy what Adam did! I'd send birdhouse a tin of cookies and pick his brain.. ;)

Fun stuff, dave

spottrouble

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2012, 11:14:36 PM »
      There is no need to buy a carbon pile tester.
If you are testing the tread mill motor all you need is to hook the diode in the positive line.and an amp meter  in series in the neg line. hook the volt meter in parallel across the pos and neg line.

         Hook it up to a battery and test.

Got it, thanks ;)

Yes I have to get the treadmill motor out of the way first, if it produces any power its going to be a starter windmill just to get a feel, and feel comfortable about managing it, and then it goes with my RV for boondocking 8).

Got the second Fanuc stripped of encoder and brake, and reassembled this evening. Guess I got to start building something soon, the workbench is getting full :)


thingamajigger

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2012, 11:38:48 PM »
@spottrouble
Quote
Dug through electronics box and found a panel mount 0-50/0-250 VDC meter, a 30-0-30 automotive amp meter(looking for something better), and some big diodes. Now I'm trying to figure out basic circuit design, I know it can't be that hard, but I'm stumped, google brings up worthless hits for battery chargers for sale. I can always use the regular digital voltmeter to read voltage, so I just need a basic generator/amp meter/diode/battery charging circuit design so I can do some load testing to figure out what I've got.

This terrible picture I made may help, I just used a similar circuit to test a 1Kw low speed induction generator I have been working on. The capacitor is to smooth out the power so the meters don't bounce and more can be added if they do. I was using my DSO to calculate power but I found it was much easier to just program a microcontroller to measure all the variables on the fly and graph voltage/current/power on my PC through the full RPM range.
I didn't get too fancy with the dummy load and to be honest most of the units we can buy are under-built and way overpriced. For low voltage/high current I use carbon arc gouging rods in parallel and/or series with the copper cladding removed. For moderate voltage I use 500w halogen bulbs again in series and/or parallel to set voltage or current. On occasion I have also used stove elements with a clamp which is simply moved along the spiral element until I hit the voltage I want at any given rpm. Another neat trick is a 120v/12amp universal motor from a shop vac as a load and it is not common knowledge but universal motors being a brushed motor can run on DC, I use a pony brake on the universal motor to set output current or voltage from the generator.

spottrouble

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2012, 11:46:01 PM »
Just went and checked data tag on the treadmill motor
Star Trac (maybe StarTrac) by Unisen
Mdl# PWM3644-5291-2
Product code FGP1212
240 VDC
2.5 HP
3500 rpm
Amps tag blank

Its a pretty big motor, definitely a 2 hander. I'll check OC voltages again tomorrow, hopefully amps too :)

dave ames

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2012, 11:23:46 PM »
Just went and checked data tag on the treadmill motor
Star Trac (maybe StarTrac) by Unisen
Mdl# PWM3644-5291-2
Product code FGP1212
240 VDC
2.5 HP
3500 rpm
Amps tag blank

Its a pretty big motor, definitely a 2 hander. I'll check OC voltages again tomorrow, hopefully amps too :)

OK . Some good info there for what we might do as a mill...Just guesses here :P

Probably won't be a powerhouse amps wise, may be just the ticket for a small setup? Definitely fun for learning!

Looks like about .068 volt per rpm..........................240/3500 = 0.068
Start charging a 12 volt battery @ about 205 rpm..14/.068 = 205
Stay under 8 amps on the bench while testing......2.5*750 = 1875/240 = 7.8 amps.
WAG-> 2 amps into a 12 volt battery @ 1000 rpm

I would not try to short this motor out while running..the high coil resistance may burn this one up in short order. The plus side to that is, it probably won't stall too bad at the low cut in speed..could do 1 or 2 amps all day long without any trouble ;D

It's all good fun!
Cheers, dave

Edit: corrected some strange wording. ::)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 11:32:34 PM by dave ames »

spottrouble

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2012, 11:41:23 PM »
Did a little more testing this evening, yes the OCV numbers in post 5 are wrong, apparently I was having a blonde moment the other night and read the wrong rpm chart :-[. Here are some better #'s

RPM      Volts
112        6.1
134        8
164        9
211        12.7
266        14.5
418        23.2

Definitely need a better amp meter, I can see the gauge move, cannot tell if its 1 amp, 3 amps, 5 amps or more.

OK here is a stupid question, and I did look at the terminology list first. The assembly that the generator and tail attach to, what do you call this? Yaw bearing seems to be the closest, but that seems to me to be the part this assembly slides over. So before I start asking questions about the "assembly that the generator and tail attach to", is there a proper name?

just-doug

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2012, 12:17:24 PM »
i just call it the central chassis or "chassis" for short.i have never seen that part labled in anything writen.spell check dosnt seem to be working today,sorry

SparWeb

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2012, 02:25:07 PM »
It would be called a "nacelle" if it enclosed the generator and or other components...  But I call it a yaw mount usually.  "Chassis" sounds good too.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

spottrouble

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2012, 10:42:40 PM »
Bought a nice NOS Weston 30 amp meter on ebay today, it is graduated in 1/2 amp increments, if I'm making power that should show it clearly. Probably won't get it till next week though, so amp testing is on hold.

So on to the Fanuc Motors.....
Tried cutting the gear off the tapered shaft adapter a few nights ago, bandsaw just skated over them, so last night I annealed them (softened). Cut the gear section off tonight, then faced the taper adaptor so it is approx 1/8" longer than the tapered shaft, this leaves the threaded section exposed. Plan is to weld the taper shaft adapter to main prop hub, once prop hub is installed on shaft a big heavy duty custom washer goes over threads, then lock it all down with a nut and locktite.

Birdhouse (Adam)
Curious how you got around the tapered shaft? Looks like your prop is mounted up close to the genny, guessing you tilted gen back on the chassis to get adequate prop clearance? What kind of prop clearance did you end up with? What airfoil did you use? I've got a lot more questions, I'll leave it at 4 for now ;).

I'm not far from starting work on the central chassis, I've gotten a few basic ideas just looking at the pics here, but........ I'm really a book person, computer is at the house, no internet in the shop, and long story short my library has been in storage for 10 years. On top of that I move every six months from home A to home B, so I need 1 book on wind turbines, what should I get? I need a better understanding of gravity furling vs spring load furling, and some basic designs for each. Reading this forum is great, but the info is spread out everywhere, I need a book so I know the drawing or graph  I need is on page 57, every time :)




birdhouse

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2012, 11:42:26 PM »
spot-

i had a machinist friend of mine make the taper shaft to blade mount.  he started with a ~5" diameter x ~4" long cylinder of ALU (6061 i think?), and cut the taper into it.  then a 3/16" by 12" stainless disk mounts to the aluminum, then the blades, then a 1/8" x 12" disk of stainless sandwiches the blades into a supurb mount!  1/4" stainless bolts go through the front plate, through the back plate and into the ALU, while most of the bolts go through the front plate and are tapped into the back plate with an additional stainless nut, to be sure.  very stout! 

i told him, i want this blade mount to hold at 100mph winds, and that's what he gave me.  his typical work is milling satellite lenses so if you're needing that, look up "gardner stussi"  he's your guy. 

sorry, had to give him a plug for his excellent work. 

i lammed up the blades from clear fir, and fiberglassed them with 6oz cloth.  painted too many times with epoxy ect. 

enough about my machine, and more to questions: i created the tower clearance by tilting the head back by 4 degrees or so.  i think i've got a foot off tower clearance, which some might not like, but by design of my blades, they really don't flex much!!  and, it's only an 8.5' turbine...

i used the standard dan/hugh blade design.  flat front, rounded leading edge, knife trailing edge, and thickest part 1/3 behind the leading edge.  NACA something or other... 

it's hard to get all your info from a forum, as many titles deviate into totally different things.  just keep reading and you'll find answers!  feel free to hit me up with a PM also!

adam

Bruce S

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2012, 07:20:21 AM »
As for books ... well...
The owners have this really nice one ! called "Homebrew Wind Power" by the dan's and there's the original put out by Hugh Piggott "The Wind Turbine Recipe book"
Both can be real page turners  ;)
AND I agree, nothing like being able to turn to page 57 for the calcs of wire size for x-wind speed and TSR.
Enjoy
Bruce S
You can educate out ignorance, you can work out of poverty, BUT you cannot fix "stupid".
author "Bruce S"

spottrouble

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2012, 05:05:46 PM »
Guess I'll try "Homebrew Wind Power" first, I do have a collection of RE books in storage, most are pretty dated, yet still good for reference, if I could just figure out which of the 50 boxes they are in.

Most batteries that show up at the salvage yard are pretty beat, but today someone dropped off 3 spotlessly clean, almost look new, Heavy Equipment batteries, 2' long x 1' x 1', checked with volt meter and all showed 12.5- 12.6 volts. Are these types of batteries worth fooling with, or do I really need "deep cycle" batteries. They've set them aside for me, but I need to give an answer in the morning, they don't like to muck up the recycling flow lol. $40 bucks apiece and 24 hours to bring them back if further testing shows they are dead, is it worth it?

Kristi

birdhouse

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2012, 07:56:59 PM »
those sound like 8D batteries.  worth getting them for sure, especially with resting voltage in the mid 12's. 

if nothing else, they're probably worth 40 a piece in core charge, and you can use them to experiment with/get your feet wet with batteries. 

many folks ruin their brand new batteries from mis care over charge/boiling dry ect.  this way you can get a feel for a bank with little out of pocket, and upgrade when you're ready. 

just don't buy them, and let them sit in the corner of your garage for eight months, then they'll be worthless!

adam

spottrouble

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Re: Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2012, 12:26:54 AM »
I'll snag them in the morning 8)

Of course that means I have to go buy a battery charger too, killed the last one by driving over it with the loader last weekend >:(

Battery Maintenance?
Step 1. Buy battery and install
Step 2. When battery quits working check electrolyte level, top off with distilled water and charge
Step 3. When battery quits working again repeat step 2, repeat as often as necesarry until step 4
Step 4. Buy battery and install

Kristi :)