Author Topic: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. from the Manufacturer  (Read 40322 times)

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BillBlake

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Changhong Batteries knows their Ni-Fe Batteries possess a few unique, overwhelming and towering strengths.
They also know that beating an investment to an early death from a lack of honest technical data is no good for them.
Much better to size the bank properly from the beginning based on the truth and full, accurate testing.

So over the years 'Changhong and The Electric Indian' (a fun name I call them once in a while) :-) has repeatedly released
data to help the North American people plan and size their Nickel Iron Battery Bank for the long haul - how China likes it.

This data has been systematically withheld from the American Public with a few isolated exceptions.
The Dealers have shown very little. Why be ashamed of the multi-billion dollar Changhong name?

A huge Corporation with huge amounts of sales on the line from Divisions and Product Lines in many Countries can have
a good attitude but it's not exactly like they have had Showrooms in every major City in America - so far.

These are the Ni-Fe Batteries sold by BeUtilityFree, Inc. and The Iron Edison Battery Co.,
going by the email they both sent to me.
20% Nickel Content.

The following <snips> (below the line) are copied and posted directly from official

Changhong Manuals with no editing and very brief notations.

I was surprised that the Rolls 5000 Series Batteries kicked the NEW Ni-Fe Batteries

butts, so badly,  between 50% DOD and 100% DOD.

This was AFTER any Electrolyte Changes.

See the Rolls Life Cycle Chart and the Changhong Life Cycle Chart.

In a nice way may I suggest that people running around posting a new Ni-Fe Ad claiming that you should run your
Ni-Fe Cells Down to 85% DOD  (Dead) every day of their Life - stop, Look and listen.
Why have broken hearted 'Brother and Sister Solar People' out a Lot of hard earned dough in a few years for no reason.

<Ad snip>

"Nickel Iron batteries handle a much larger depth of discharge, so you can use 85% of your battery's capacity. 

In about 7-10 years, instead of having to buying all new lead, you would just need to refresh the electrolyte and

your system will perform like new."    <end of Ad snip>

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Changhong NF-S Series Nickel-Iron batteries

for solar PV application.'

From Oct. 2010


1.6.7 Cycling

The Changhong NF-S series NiFe

cell is adaptable to a wide range

of depth of discharge (DOD). The

number of cycles vary with DOD

required. The lower DOD is, the

more number of cycles are. The

number of cycles reach thousands

during shallow discharge, while it

can only reach hundreds of cycles

during deep discharge. The

following figure gives the effect of

DOD on the available cycle life.

----------------------------------------------------------------

(From: 'Solar Ni-Fe cell catalogue')

changhongbatteries (dotcom)

(See the chart at the bottom of the Roll's page to compare Battery DOD Life Cycles)

rollsbattery (dotcom) /content/specifications-renewable

-----------------------------------------------------------------

 'Jan. 2008 Changhong NiFe Operators Manual'

1.4

Life time: The charge and discharge cycles should

be more than 750 times. During the life time, the

average discharge capacity should not be less

than nominal capacity. The minimum discharge

capacity should be more than 90% of the nominal

capacity.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

 'Changhong Operators Manual'


(NOTE: Prior to Jan. 2008 above)


4.8 Lifetime

Life time: The number of full charge and full discharge cycles will

be about 1000 times depending on proper maintenance

including electrolyte replacement when needed.

Much longer lifespans can be expected if regular discharges are

less than 20%

where the number of charge / discharge cycles will be between

5000  to  8000 cycles.

The end of the lifespan is defined by operation at 70% capacity
or lower

after replacing the electrolyte.

In many applications the battery will still be very useful for
many years or decades beyond this. <snip>

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 Bill Blake


P.S. They raised the Lithium Hydroxide (you mix) by 4 times as of the Jan. 2008 Operators Manual which changed
a lot of things.

We need to have some Ni-Fe Electrolyte Strategy and Ni-Fe Charging posts someday.
It's a new game now in several ways $$


XeonPony

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Did you buy stock in the company or some thing? I'm sorry but this is all most seems like advertising to me not just this post but the 4 added up.
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!

Bruce S

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Xeonpony;
I asked him to post deeper information so we could have hard evidence , rather than just another round of stuff like the ones from last year  8).
AND not just the stuff we've all heard before, but that stuff we hardly ever get to know about, like how many times the electrolyte needs to be changed.
 I did explain that people here would take him to task if the stuff seemed off kilter and no links  ;).

Sorry should've put this notice up already, work keeps getting in the way  >:(

Thanks
Bruce S
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

BillBlake

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It's funny how things can work. I was worried that someone might think that I was a Changhong Dealer
attack dog more so than a shill for them.  :'(

You see Links or no Links we all just read that this talk of Modern Ni-Fe being some Super (Forever) battery is one of
the biggest crocks of jive in Alternative Energy history.

They do good at a reasonable 20% to 30% DOD.  That's IT and certainly not rated forever!

Saying the Changhong Ni-Fe Cells can take constant 85% discharge so you need WAY LESS amounts of batteries
is the crux of the sales strategy for the NEW Changhong Ni-Fe Dealer. 

Like I said people are going to get hurt.


NOTE: With once Daily Cycling (See the Ni-Fe Life Cycle Chart at Changhongbatteries )
 
__________________________________________
 

100% DOD = Well Under 3 Years
 
80% DOD =  Around 3.3 Years
 
50% DOD =  Around 8.6 Years
 
30% DOD =  Around 16.8 Years
 
20% DOD =  Around 23 Years
 

NOTE: This is AFTER expensive Ni-Fe Electrolyte Changes. Old Bill wants to get into just how often I will

REALLY have to change my electrolyte that runs into the low Thousands of Dollars for (41) NF800=S Cells.

Then and Only Then I might buy and I might not. But either way I will not feel like 'the sweetboy' ;-)


Exposing this Ni-Fe Life Cycles and Magic Electrolyte Lie (according to Changhong themselves)  doesn't seem much like the work of a shill or a sweetboy to me to put it bluntly.
However this whole Ni-Fe subject has gotten what I call 'the treatment' for years.

Like all this jive about how much Nickel costs. Go to the Changhong MSDS and READ.

At 20% Nickel in the Ni-Fe Batteries it hasn't been the price of Nickel making the Cells so expensive.

It's the huge profits going into the Ni-Fe Battery Dealers pockets. Period. We need more competition.

Then the planting of stories about how much the ' Nickel junk yard value' will be someday. What a joke.

Yes I believe I'm the fellow that exposed that as well. Not the work of a shill or even a 'reverse shill'  ;D

My goal is simple. A true and balanced look at something that myself and others may have a legitatmite interest in.
There are experts that like my research style. There is a good probability that I have been told things that very
few (outside of their immediate circle) have ever been told.

Since I refuse to talk on the phone 99.9% of the time - it's all in writing. They all know.

All I really want out of this hobby is to finally solve the riddles. To force some conclusions without having to put out
big money just to find out what should have been public knowledge all along. I won't buy an expensive camera without
knowing what I'm getting into and this Ni-Fe deal is no exception.

The only other thing I want is for Changhong andlegitimate The Electric Indian to say

'Who was that old masked man'   ;D

Like I said I'm too old to Live on Fairy Tales.

Give me the OK. There are plenty of Links to post.


Bill Blake

P.S. Any 'post bump' was a good bump - so I took what I could get.  ;-)

Bruce S

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Bill;
There is a minimum posting of 50 before links are allowed. I deviated once and caused a firestorm.
I will say you have the gift of gab  ;D.
IF anyone wants the links before the 50 post minimum they can PM you and you can send them if you wish to.

Cheers;
Bruce S

A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

Mary B

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I just did some calculations on the Montana Nickel iron batteries versus the 6 volt golf cart I am getting. For the same size battery pack(464AH) the nickel iron were only $150 more. Of course they don't offer that size but that is what 4 golf cart batteries give me so I used it as the base price for comparing.

4 golf cart batteries 464AH $500 $1.08 per AH
3kw Zap Works 12v $3950 $1.32AH

with the longer life of the NiFe battery when treated properly they are a better buy.

vtpeaknik

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But MaryAlana, $3950 / 250AH = 15.8 $/AH (@12V), a lot more than 1.32!

They'd have to last 16 times as long as the golf cart bats, with no additional expense, to justify the price, and that's without introducing any "time value of money".

BillBlake

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Bill;
There is a minimum posting of 50 before links are allowed. I deviated once and caused a firestorm.
I will say you have the gift of gab  ;D.
IF anyone wants the links before the 50 post minimum they can PM you and you can send them if you wish to.

Cheers;
Bruce S

Thanks Bruce. So we can cut the rap down (a tad) with Links BUT we have to rap to be able to post the links.
I have it. Here's another 2% towards the goal   ;D

Was going to write and ask you to fix my last post. The spell checker butchered me a little. Then I thought
what the heck - why try to look like a polished shill.  ;-)

As you can probably tell this stuff is serious in one way but hilarious in another. My time is going to run a little thin
however since I'm getting back into a 'work type' project very soon. I feared for a friend of mine with a bad heart
because some of the behind the scenes (and in public)

Ni-Fe Shenanigans has tore the man up with tremendous laughter. Occasionally we couldn't stop. Like the old days.

The Father of Chinese Ni-Fe in America and I have exchanged a tremendous amount of information.
It's a love / hate type research deal. Depends on what week or which days of which month.

He got shut down for a week at one place recently (a forum) but a little of the fault is mine for inciting the poor man.
He was calling me Big Bill and I said that I was actually little Bill.
little Bill is the guy that tortured Ned in the Clint Eastwood movie 'Unforgiven'.
At one point little Bill told Ned that he was going to get rough with him - 'not easy like before'.

The old Ni-Fe dealer has been a big help but I do not consider him a top tier source of Ni-Fe advice.
Why is a long story and not for this post.

At least he doesn't try to hurt people with nonsense like the new Ni-Fe Battery dealer.

Anyway I'm not out for anything but the truth about this best part of a 30,000.00 bill investment.
IF the facts have been hidden or altered and it takes 'pressing things a bit' - sorry but too bad.
IF somebody gets made to look good because it genuinely sounds good - so be it.
 

Bill Blake

P.S. One Last time.

Any post bump was a good bump so I tooks what I could get.  ::)

Mary B

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The Zap works bank I picked is their smallest 12 volt at 3kw, 3,000 watts. http://www.zappworks.com/battery_prices.htm

But MaryAlana, $3950 / 250AH = 15.8 $/AH (@12V), a lot more than 1.32!

They'd have to last 16 times as long as the golf cart bats, with no additional expense, to justify the price, and that's without introducing any "time value of money".

vtpeaknik

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3KWH, 12V, 250AH NiFe for $3950.  I stand by my math.  Do not confuse amp-hours and watt-hours.  Your 464AH 12V system (assuming you have 4 "golf cart" batteries, each of which is 6V 232AH) is 12 X 464 = 5568 watt-hours.  Close to double the WH of that NiFe battery, at 1/8 the total cost.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 10:38:03 AM by vtpeaknik »

BillBlake

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This is an open letter based on some of Bruce's comments to me.
Since my Son has plans for my time now let me feed
two birds with one dish. As far as previous Posters go every known Poster in any Group in any Country
that we could understand that talked about Ni-Fe got listened to - if we could find them.
It was a joint effort where I had a little help.

Then the Posts were categorized in various ways. Same with the Post material itself.
This Group was great. One of my favorite Posts that I made up last year came from notes from here.

'Last List of 13 Nickel Iron Battery Questions .. by the 2009 NiFe Man.'

Then I went back to work on my Son's project for around 7 months doing a good 70 hours per week and
I needed a little break (a diversion) to stay sharp so I jumped back in to try and finish this crazy bag
of Ni-Fe riddles up.
Problem is I played with the quicksand a little too long.

The incomparable Thomas A. Edison got looked at fairly well but that man could always use more study time.

You may need  'The Secrets of The Ancients and Modern Chinese Technology' to solve this whamo-jammo.
At the same time if you dwell on the past too much you can miss much of what is really relevant. 
It's a balance.

For instance the old Edison factory was real nice but it isn't going to butter your bread anymore so I can't get
too hung up over it. I'm worried about what is readily available to survive with today and wish to help beat the
price to a fair level for the buyer and the seller.

Not this 'Say Anything'  to get over paid and charge outrageous shipping charges that is going on right now
by one new Ni-Fe Dealer. Solar People don't Like Ugly.

Trying to check out of this study I decided instead of seeking new Ni-Fe material which is starting to get
harder to get why not review and further sort what was learned from several thousand hours (combined time).
I'm hoping the old gems were the keys I needed because I can definitely see the light at the end of this
long tunnel. We were already sitting on some real heavy duty material that needed to be 'savored a tad'.

If it's worth keeping it's worth me reading it a few times. It's takes a lot of 'context thinking' for this deal.
We are real close to the end. Or at least (end enough) since the Thomas Edison Nickel Iron book has a Life
of it's own and will always demand more time out of somebody.

There has never been any conflicts with how the Ni-Fe Cells are made because I know it's no backyard
shade tree task. So in a way - who cares.

From day one it was that Electrolyte and Other Maintenance for the Changhong Ni-Fe Batteries.
Just that end of the whole deal is a long story so in coming weeks,
Lord willing, I will try to post some of it.

A few instances of the Edison Nickel Iron Batteries lasting (going on) 100 years are true.

The problem is there is a whole Lot of 'Untold Story' behind those few examples.
Many times just keeping near perfect control of the carbonate levels was not enough.


Bill Blake

Mary B

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Oops my mistake, what I get for posting math late at night  :o

BillBlake

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A batteries warranty can tell a lot about the product. This Ni-Fe guarantee speaks loudly.

(As of 8/1/11)
 
BeUtilityFree, Inc.

 Renewable Energy Products (Solar Electric • Solar Heating • Wind Electric) Energy Efficiency Products

• Design • Engineering • Consultation

 Effective date: August 1, 2011

 BeUtilityFreeâ„¢, Inc. guarantees to the original user that all Nickel Iron NEW pocket plate batteries will be free from
defects in material and workmanship for (12)
12 years after placed in service and to produce 80% of the manufacturers amp hour capacity rating.
User should immediately report any possible defects in writing
to BeUtilityFreeâ„¢, Inc. vis email (office@beutilityfree or USPS.

 All batteries claimed to be defective must be returned to BeUtilityFreeâ„¢, Inc. for evaluation. During the first year
from date of shipment we will pay for return shipping if cell (s) are found to be defective.

After first year customer pays all shipping expenses both ways.
Allow up to 3 weeks for examination of batteries.
No replacement batteries will be sent unless bad cells are received first. No exceptions.

Shipping instructions:

1. Fluid must be emptied from all cell(s) and a small electrolyte sample - 4 onces

-sent separately from at least 4 cells via USPS or along with the battery shipment to BUF.

Cell(s) can be shipped via USPS, UPS ground, FedEx ground or DHL Express.

2. Package must be packaged according to shippers standard practices for the weight of the cell.
Please use proper packing material that will not crush under the weight of the cell.

We suggest bubble wrap as the best packing material.

3. Proper filling out of BOL must be done according to Hazadious material laws at the time BOL

is filled out. If you need a sample nickel iron BOL we can send it to you.

 4. Must be sent in GLASS containers and NOT plastic.

 The following conditions must be met or guarantee is NULL and VOID:

 1. The batteries are used in a home power system or approved system by BeUtilityFreeâ„¢,Inc.â„¢ engineering department.

2. Batteries cannot be installed in an environment that exceeds 80° F on a continual basis,

such as a box in the sun.

 3. The batteries are handled, stored and installed in accordance with the instruction manual

sent via email, USPS or shipped with the batteries.

Proper maintenance records should be kept regarding temperatures, specific gravity,

cell voltages, and battery carbonate content on a yearly basis for each cell.

 4. Water level must be maintained at the recommended level at all times.

Only distilled or de-ionized water can be used to replace fluid level. Rain water,

city water, well water or sea water will void warranty.

 5. Warranty applies only to original owner and does not cover any battery that must be repaired
or replaced due to misuse, accidents, negligence, tampering, earthquakes or acts of God.

 6. All battery returns must be followed by a Return Authorization Number (RAN) issued by BeUtilityFreeâ„¢, Inc.
In writing to the customer service department.
Customer is responsible for costs and proper packaging of battery (s). All batteries must be returned to us before
guarantee is honored.
Shipping instructions will be sent with the RAN.

 7. Battery terminals must be TIGHT and CLEAN to assure no arcing occurs during heavy charging
and discharging of battery.

8. Electrolyte changes areNOT covered under this warranty. If battery electrolyte becomes con taminated

(usually by having the potassium hydroxide turn into potassium carbonate with the

first 10 years then the fluid should be replaced by the owner and an electrolyte change will not effect the warranty period.

If battery is found to be contaminated with carbonate during a claim then the claim will not be honored.

It is the clients responsibility to monitor the electrolyte carbon content.

BUF will test your electrolyte for a reasonable fee if you send us a sample.
 
9. Some method must be made to allow minimal intake of carbon dioxide from the air.

Potas sioum hydroxide has an affinity to draw carbon dioxide form the air into the cells
electro lyter over time.

Once the cell draws enough electrolyte out of the air and into the electrolyte
the electrolyte will become saturated with carbon dioxide and the electrolyte turns eventually
into potassium carbonate.

Once that happens the cell loses its battery capacity and you will notice a loss of capacity in your battery bank.

It has been our experience so far that nor mally you will need an electrolyte change every 7-10 years.

The following methods are acceptable to retard the electrolyte from drawing in carbon dioxide
into the air:

1. A layer of special oil can be placed on the top of the electrolyte cells. The layer of float oil
The layer of oil must be at least 1/4" thick. (6.25 mm) .

This oil can be purchased from BUF.

If any other oil is used form another company than the warranty is void

unless we have full details of the oil you plan to use and get a letter of approval from BUF.

2. A cap with a ball of some sort that seals the cap opening.

3. A self watering system

4. BUF system (currently in development developed) that was taken from a patented system
that has since expired
 
10. If defective during the first year we will replace free of charge. The second through the tenth years will be
warranted on a pro-rated basis.

The pro-ration formula is Credit = "original purchase price X - 1st year date of Shipment.

The registration form is filled out within (15) fifteen days of receiving batteries and sent to:

Att: Customer Service
BeUtilityFreeâ„¢, Inc.
14149 County Rd. 26
Fort Lupton, CO. 80621

...

You may want to consider testing for Lithium Carbonate as well since raising the LiOH.H2O by 4 times has worked
out so well.

Changhong Batteries has set the ding dong switch (Replace the Electrolyte) at 50 grams per Liter for carbonates.

I doubt they care what kind of carbonates it is. The Lithium Hydroxide alone can swell up to 'do you' now.

Rarely, if ever, discussed Iron poisoning from the Negative Elements into the Ni-Fe Nickel Matrix
also needs to be considered.

Let's Internet launch that subject here at Otherpower.

Better yet let's get past the Fairy Tale of a free ride once we over pay excessive profits to get the Ni-Fe batteries.

Keep paying. It's going to take time and money to keep the Ni-Fe Cells in shape as we go along.

However just like us - they really can keep going a good while IF you keep pumping the money into them.  ::)

Some of those real old electric vehicles are reported to have changed their Ni-Fe Electrolyte every year.

Even every 8 months or so with lax watering procedures.

It gets covered in the electrolyte post coming up.

Bill Blake

BillBlake

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WE will determine how many Years and how many Cycles we can get out of a modern Ni-Fe battery set-up.
Nobody else because they never did the homework. Certainly no one that is trying to get their hand in your pocket
for thousands of dollars just to shuffle a few papers and jive you on the phone is Ever going to tell you straight -
unless we make them.

Given enough time with a whole new understanding about how to maintain the (Ni-Fe) Nickel Iron Battery
Technology great things will happen. With cooperation and planning every obstacle except some work can be overcome
for your Forever Battery ( 2 or more human Generations) to be for real.

That 50 kg bag of Reagent Grade ACS Certified Lithium Hydroxide they want around 2 Grand ($2000.00)
for here in America (after giving you some Lip about it) is lucky to bring 55 dollars in China.

It's a beautiful technology that was corrupted with Lies, Greed and offering customers a Fake 'easy way out'.
No such thing as an Easy Forever Battery that can handle reasonable abuse in today's market.
With WORK and a few adjustments that marvel actually has been here longer than any of us.
Just got Lost.

Anyone selling any Ni-Fe batteries has been notified to defend themselves. No secrets.

'John D'Angelo and Brandon Williams' are no strangers here and have both posted here.

Look them up at Google.



Ni-Fe BATTERY LIFETIME INFORMATION:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<snip from a Changhong Batteries Operator's Owner's Manual>

The electrolyte will absorb the carbon dioxide in the air and create carbonate easily during operation.

When carbonate in the electrolyte is over 50g/L, the performance of the battery will be badly effected.

After charge and discharge for 150~200 cycles or operate for 1 year, please check the carbonate in the electrolyte.

If the carbonate in the electrolyte is over 50g/L, please replace the electrolyte.


( Does this sound like just worry about it in 7 to 10 years to you? Who knows more - the guys building the Ni-Fe Cells

for 30 (or so) Years or some fast talking salesman looking to live large on your nickle - no matter what? )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<snip> From the 2010 Solar PV Brochure:

'CHANGHONG NF-S Series Nickel-Iron batteries for solar PV application'
 
1.6.8 Effect of Temperature on Lifetime
 
Changhong NF-S series NiFe cell is designed for 20- year service life , but the increase in the temperature

of electrolyte will r e d u c e  t h e  e x p e c t e d  l i f e.

In general , every 9℃ increase in temperature over the normal ambient temperature of 25℃
 
r e d u c e s  t h e  s e r v i c e  l i f e o f Changhong NF-S series NiFe cell by 20%.

For lead-acid batteries , it will be 50%.

The following figure shows the comparison graph of life expected at high temperature for both Ni-Fe and

lead-acid batteries.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Keep in mind they build a lot of different battery chemistries including Lead Acid for a lot of that side of the world.

Naturally there is an 'Untold Story' about the Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Electrolyte Temperature on top of endless
other untold stories.)


Bill Blake
 
 

dnix71

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BillBlake I like your posts even if they are long and wordy. There is one other issue that I have not seen you address.

Clean water is hard to get in many places, and municipal tap water is not pure water in many places either. I live in south Florida. Our tap water is safe to drink, but it's still pumped up from lime rock so most of it has a fair amount of carbonates. This tap water would very quickly destroy a NiFe battery. Only distilled water purchased from a reputable source would be acceptable for watering a NiFe battery here.

The carbonates in tap water are actually considered good by the water supplier. It buffers pH and it prevents the water from corroding brass and iron plumbing. It also gives the water some taste, although the people from New York would argue it's a "bad" taste. The water from NY is melted snow over granite, not limerock, so it has less minerals and definitely has a cleaner taste.

The same nasty tasting tap water has little effect on a common lead acid battery, even though distilled water is still recommended.

XeonPony

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BillBlake I like your posts even if they are long and wordy. There is one other issue that I have not seen you address.

Clean water is hard to get in many places, and municipal tap water is not pure water in many places either. I live in south Florida. Our tap water is safe to drink, but it's still pumped up from lime rock so most of it has a fair amount of carbonates. This tap water would very quickly destroy a NiFe battery. Only distilled water purchased from a reputable source would be acceptable for watering a NiFe battery here.

The carbonates in tap water are actually considered good by the water supplier. It buffers pH and it prevents the water from corroding brass and iron plumbing. It also gives the water some taste, although the people from New York would argue it's a "bad" taste. The water from NY is melted snow over granite, not limerock, so it has less minerals and definitely has a cleaner taste.

The same nasty tasting tap water has little effect on a common lead acid battery, even though distilled water is still recommended.

distiling water is absurbly easy so not really an issue more of the point the person either has to spend a couple of bucks or do a little work and spend a few bucks to get a still in motion.
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!

SteveCH

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Far as I am aware, all batteries, of any chemistry, should be serviced with distilled water. Ni Fe is no different from lead acid or etc., so this is a non-issue. Except the fact that Ni Fe batteries use more distilled water than lead acid. Or, mine do.

BillBlake

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BillBlake I like your posts even if they are long and wordy. There is one other issue that I have not seen you address.

Clean water is hard to get in many places, and municipal tap water is not pure water in many places either. I live in south Florida. Our tap water is safe to drink, but it's still pumped up from lime rock so most of it has a fair amount of carbonates. This tap water would very quickly destroy a NiFe battery. Only distilled water purchased from a reputable source would be acceptable for watering a NiFe battery here.

The carbonates in tap water are actually considered good by the water supplier. It buffers pH and it prevents the water from corroding brass and iron plumbing. It also gives the water some taste, although the people from New York would argue it's a "bad" taste. The water from NY is melted snow over granite, not limerock, so it has less minerals and definitely has a cleaner taste.

The same nasty tasting tap water has little effect on a common lead acid battery, even though distilled water is still recommended.

dnix71,

Thanks for liking the posts even though they are Light and Worthy. ;D
The subject being so intense and needy worried me from the beginning so I wrote off list to the group moderator about it.
With things like guarantees and what Changhong says to look at that adds length as well.
There is a lot of ground to cover and it INSISTS on expanding as we go along IF somebody can make a little more time
for the subject. As you try to close it out something else pops up. Right now new controversy is brewing
about who's right about the Iron Poisoning which may be just as bad as carbonates - if not worse -
in a few rare opinions around the world.
Then we have what is the REAL difference between the Nickel Matrix material in the Positive Elements of the  Edison Cells
vs. the Nickel Matrix material in the Chinese Ni-Fe Cells. Other new data is popping up as well.
Ni-Fe Cell Temperature Management hasn't been looked at properly yet, Electrolyte Management and what have you.
As long as there seems to be interest we can look at it all a little at a time.
If not I can live OK with that as well. The pay stinks. ;-)
Right now I don't want to upset a world class source of Ni-Fe information but it's difficult because he is going up
against the wrong guy's statements. This other person, call him 'Guy', reminds me of Hyman Roth in the
Godfather movie when  Johnny Ola said "Hyman Always makes money for his partners."
This dude 'Guy' "Always has solid proof before he gets into it with somebody".
The Iron Poisoning  coming from the Negative Ni-Fe Elements via the Electrolyte and bleeding onto and into
the Positive Elements has been yet another Untold contributor to unnecessary Ni-Fe problems for decades.
The devils.
Getting that fact straight was the final riddle until that conclusion opened up more doors.
In a way it's ridiculous.
If the subject wasn't so interesting to me with so many side trips it could have been wrapped up before.
I was sitting on half the answer to that last riddle a long time ago. The first 1/2 led to the second.
My Son says there is going to be no rush looking into anymore Ni-Fe Riddles for a while.

Bill Blake

dnix71

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I can and have used tap water to fill a common flooded lead acid battery with no bad consequences. If I did that to a NiFe battery with the local tap water, I would do immediate harm to the battery.

We had problems at work with a 4KW argon laser and distilled water. There is purified water and real distilled, deionized water. We had to have the engraving laser serviced professionally because of the difference. The wrong water corroded the external cooling system.

Our forklift batteries get tap water and they have lasted more than 5 years. Not the best practice, but not fatal, either.

I don't know what mineral oil is allowed by BeUtilityFree, but not just any oil is immune to a high pH solution.

The higher cost and funny looks you get here in the US over lithium come from our obsession over drugs. Lithium is used to treat certain organic brain disorders. A Google search of "lithium carbonate" yields more drug references than anything else.
Too much lithium carbonate will destroy your kidneys, too, so it needs to be handled with care.

BillBlake

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Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. from the Manufacturer
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2012, 03:54:21 PM »
As you know with the Edison NiFe design not only were they built to be cleaned /
refurbished if necessary but one or more of the plates can be replaced if you have
the spare parts.
For people with Survival type interests a Nickel - Iron - Battery  can be the ultimate
'Battle Battery'.
Of coarse transportation can be a problem.
With the Changhong NiFe Cells the plates are welded to a current carrying bar so a
person would have to be mighty handy if they wanted to replace (exchange) a plate
from another 'Parts Cell'. Though I figure that somebody probably will someday.

Without doing a chemical analysis on the Nickel Hydroxide (mixed with other goodies)
in the Positive Elements it might not be easy to verify the real differences with the
Edison NiFe Cells vs. Changhong and the Electric Indian. However I tend to believe
the stories that Edison used better, more expensive material that can be cleaned until
the actual plates start to fall apart - long after the cows come home. 

This is just a hunch but then again I have a number of NiFe hunches.
It's something that some experts agree with. Changhong knows but will they ever
'give it up'? Probably not likely.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<Snip from a recent expert email to me about it>   Monday, April 16, 2012 12:09 PM

"The problem with the Chinese batteries is that they are not true NiFe

they are only NiOH coated. 

This is similar to pure Gold and Gold plated."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The price of meat has just gone up and we have yet another WiFi, NiFe riddle

to solve before putting the subject down.  ???

Bill Blake

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Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. from the Manufacturer
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2012, 10:58:03 PM »
There is a guy on ebay buying scrap batteries. Not that Edison Cells need to get sold as scrap in today's world.
Not when high capacity , extra entire waves of Life Cycles were built into the Edison Design by (if needed)
cleaning the
Nickel-Iron-Battery Elements.

Or plates being replaced using cannibalized Cells like dnix71 can do if necessary.
It's amazing that we don't have more Ni-Fe user accounts than we seem to have from Any time period.

This especially goes for the Chinese NiFe Battery customers. There hasn't been a whole lot of data there either.
Sometimes it almost seems like there is more build-up talk about the batteries coming or more talk about worry or
about how they feel that John D'Angelo hosed them ('did them') then there is good performance data as time goes by.
It's amazing.

<snip>

Buying Junk Scrap Batteries Lead, Li-Ion, NiMh, NiCd, Absolyte, NiFe, Silver

Prices for Battery dealers, generators, scrap dealers, etc. $18,060

is 42,000# @ 43¢/lb

Currenlty paying the following for 42,000# loads of batteries properly packaged and picked up at your location:

Automotive around 42-44¢/lb

Industrial around 38-40¢/lb

Prices may go up or down slightly depending on your location.

The following prices are per pound delivered properly packaged to me in Horace, ND.

nicd dry 40¢

nicd wet 15¢

dry nimh $1

nife 15¢        <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

absolyte 20¢

li-ion $1.90 for laptop and cellphone batteries.

li-ion 25¢ for medical, power tool, and other types

silver oxide 2.1 x spot price

silver cell please call

With questions please call 701-361-5821.

Please call as I check messages maybe once per month on eBay.

<end of snip>

You can type:   270972734115   into the ebay search bar to behold the Listing.

Bill Blake

thirteen

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Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. from the Manufacturer
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2012, 06:43:29 AM »
Distilled water for the nife batteries and other acid filled batteries is required for most warrenties. Ok this I understand. I have not looked things up but what is the best way to make distilled water for your batteries that will be accepted by the mabufacturer. My drinking water is nice but it has never bin tested for use in batteries. My body likes it no nasty taste and it seems as if it has no real taste at all.  I will be moving to my place which is back in the sticks and there will be times when you do not get out for up to 2 1/2 months to 3 1/2 months during the winter. So I am just now thinking what is the easiest way to make your own distilled water for your batteries at home?
MntMnROY 13

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Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. from the Manufacturer
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2012, 11:12:59 AM »
Bring a gallon of it (from the grocery store) with you and that'll last a while?

I've made my own by saving the water collected by the dehumidifier that I sometimes run in the humid basement in the summer (sometimes on solar power).  I've used it in the winter in the ultrasonic humidifier upstairs.  Sort of like my own little annual "hydraulic cycle" to mimic the global one  :-)

thirteen

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Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. from the Manufacturer
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2012, 12:47:31 PM »
I do have a pantry that never gets below 36 / 38 degrees even if there is no heat in th erest of the house. 12in thick sawdust walls all around in cluding floor and ceiling. I've come up there when it is -20 / -30 below and it stays at a cool 36 temp and during the summer months it might get up to 54 and that is about it. Unless you leave the main door open like we did two years ago and washed eveything in it top to bottom. 14ft X 14ft x 8ft with shelves all around it with two small center shelves. But it needs more lighting. It usually carries 6 months supply of canned food and another 6 mo supply of dried food in cans or tubs.  I'll put some in the pantry and leave it. Maybe I could convert a still and make my own distilled water or other needed things to drink. I've never made and home brew. It would be a good project to do in the fall for winter hibernation needs.
MntMnROY 13

Frank S

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Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. from the Manufacturer
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2012, 12:55:50 PM »
Yea thirteen I was thinking to write up an article for making a still but I figured you would try to make moonshine instead and possibly go blind because you accidentally skipped a step then you would blame me for it which would be OK as long as  I helped you drink it
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

Frank S

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Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. from the Manufacturer
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2012, 01:15:15 PM »
or you can do this

 I would rather coil the copper tubing on the down side  to act as a condenser
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

XeonPony

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Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. from the Manufacturer
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2012, 06:34:36 PM »
Yea thirteen I was thinking to write up an article for making a still but I figured you would try to make moonshine instead and possibly go blind because you accidentally skipped a step then you would blame me for it which would be OK as long as  I helped you drink it

quite impossible to go blind when making your own alcohol, unless you add antifreeze or methylhydrate! (Which is what the old proabitionist moonshiners did hence the mythe.)
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!

Bruce S

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Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. from the Manufacturer
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2012, 10:12:45 AM »
Yea thirteen I was thinking to write up an article for making a still but I figured you would try to make moonshine instead and possibly go blind because you accidentally skipped a step then you would blame me for it which would be OK as long as  I helped you drink it

quite impossible to go blind when making your own alcohol, unless you add antifreeze or methylhydrate! (Which is what the old prohibitionist moonshiners did hence the mythe.)
No, that exactly correct  :(, sorry.

Use of lead based piping or worse galvanized piping is way too easy and very deadly.
So much so , then when the FEDs come to visit my very legal and registered still, they see the galvanized piping and they don't look any further other than my annual paper work.
They also look at my personal consumption records and test it for lead.
The stuff from prohibition was mostly from adding wood-grain alky which is POISON from the git go.

Bruce S
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

Frank S

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Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. from the Manufacturer
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2012, 10:50:53 AM »
I'm not sure how this thread degenerated from looking for a chart about life cycle of batteries to whether or not we are all going to start making our own hooch.
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

XeonPony

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Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. from the Manufacturer
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2012, 11:04:02 AM »
Yea thirteen I was thinking to write up an article for making a still but I figured you would try to make moonshine instead and possibly go blind because you accidentally skipped a step then you would blame me for it which would be OK as long as  I helped you drink it

quite impossible to go blind when making your own alcohol, unless you add antifreeze or methylhydrate! (Which is what the old prohibitionist moonshiners did hence the mythe.)
No, that exactly correct  :(, sorry.

Use of lead based piping or worse galvanized piping is way too easy and very deadly.
So much so , then when the FEDs come to visit my very legal and registered still, they see the galvanized piping and they don't look any further other than my annual paper work.
They also look at my personal consumption records and test it for lead.
The stuff from prohibition was mostly from adding wood-grain alky which is POISON from the git go.

Bruce S

Well any one who bothers to do the minimal amount of learning will fast find you never use either on any thing dealing with consumables! I wouldn't even use those two on my fuel making still, just piss poor ROI (return of investment) So I hold by my statement for a "properly made still" it is imposible short of using extra chemicles to go blind from making ones own alcohol.

I shudder when I work on pottable water systems with galvanized fittings and warn the people that they should immeadiatly be replaced with a good guality copper fiting or at least with a proper brass fiting.
And wood grain = methenol

Frank, distiling is distilling whether it is water, Alcohol,  oils into different grades of fuel, it all the same process with very little differences between them!
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 11:10:37 AM by XeonPony »
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!

Bruce S

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Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. from the Manufacturer
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2012, 11:05:44 AM »
I'm not sure how this thread degenerated from looking for a chart about life cycle of batteries to whether or not we are all going to start making our own hooch.
It happens in a bunch of threads  ;D.
IF the OP (author) wishes, the GMs and above can ask other to not go on a tangent or they cab be moved (split) into a different topic.
BUT some (including me) when seeing info posted that is not completely correct will help to dispel that info , so as to lessen the continued myths.
distilling water is certainly a good item to know , for even drinking water, in less than tap water available places.
Hope that helps
Bruce S
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

Bruce S

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Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. from the Manufacturer
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2012, 11:07:26 AM »

Takes a special kind of stupid to use lead or galvanized on any thing that comes in contact with potable water in the first place! I never factor in natural selection.
OH So true, but they are OUT there  :o
Google Darwin awards  ;D
Cheers;
Bruce S
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XeonPony

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Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. from the Manufacturer
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2012, 11:11:56 AM »

Takes a special kind of stupid to use lead or galvanized on any thing that comes in contact with potable water in the first place! I never factor in natural selection.
OH So true, but they are OUT there  :o
Google Darwin awards  ;D
Cheers;
Bruce S

I Promote natural selection, no more warning lables, we need it back oh so bad! fyi I LOVE the Darwin awards!

BTY I reworded my post so may wish to reread it!
Ignorance is not bliss, You may not know there is a semie behind you but you'll still be a hood ornimant!

Nothing fails like prayer, Two hands clasped in work will achieve more in a minute then a billion will in a melenia in prayer. In other words go out and do some real good by helping!