Author Topic: Lazyness,wiring help  (Read 5942 times)

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gww

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Lazyness,wiring help
« on: October 18, 2012, 05:32:03 PM »
I am trying to learn but willing to take a short cut.  I am trying to figure the right way to wire my system and not have to change it if I ever have it inspected which I don't plan on doing but figure if it would pass I would have no troubles no matter what happens.  I have been looking into nec requirements but will probly show my ignorance with this post.

I have an outback system, 48 volts.  Two inverters for 240 volt power. I am going to buy 16 sams club batteries.  I would like to use the smallest wire I can and still be safe.  Things I hope to learn by posting here.
1.  The out back manual says to run the house AC power to the inverter from a 60 amp breaker.  Would 12/3 gage house wire work for this or do I need to go bigger and if so how big?

2.  For the dc wire coming from the solar.  3300 watts is the max for the mx 60 charge controller for a 48 volt battery bank.  My intention is to run this about 200' to my house from a ground mounted aray.  I am going to have about a 90 volt 3300 watt solar aray. 
a.  what size wire?
b.  Does the combiner box need fused or just a buss bar?
c.  Will the dc breaker panel work as the dc shut off contoller?  My inclination is it wont as it is inside the house.  If the dc panel won't work does the dc shut off have to be fused?
d.  Fuses were provide with the dc panel, what size does the fuse have to be to be safe?
e.  Is conduit required for exsposed wire runs.

3.  Batteries, 
a.  Inside my basement or outside along my house, inside an inclosure?
b.  What size wires?
c.  Will the dc panel be enough fuseing of the batteries.
d.  What size wire should I use to and from and to interconnect the batteries?

4.  Pre hot water heater powered through the inverters out sub-panels at 240 volts ac, using an ssr as the trigger.
a.  What wire should I use?
b.  What wire should I use from the charge controller to the ssr?  ssr is 4-34 volts dc.  The wire will probly be 50 to 60 feet long.

I am looking and trying to figure the 125% rule or the 157% rule and what goes where but it would be nice to have good starting points so I could start gethering some of this stuff. Some of you guys and/or girls have built simular stuff and have some of these answers floating around with out even having to think of the math.  I will take what you are willing to give even if it is critical of some misconception I might be showing that I have.
Thanks
gww

gww

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2012, 05:39:49 PM »
Also I could put the inverter in a detatched garage and run power to the house but I would have to buy even another sup-panel for my basement and not use the one on the outback mounting plate.  I would also have to run the dc wire under ground to the ssr.

Would this still be a better ideal?
thanks
gww

phil b

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2012, 11:41:59 PM »
A NEC code book with pictures always helps me.

grainger.com look up this one. "NFPA Handbook, NEC, Hard Cover, 2011" You can get them cheaper elsewhere. I do suggest using the 2011 book  because of solar and wind pictures and diagrams.

There are bunches of nec wire ampacity charts on Google search. Just pick the easiest for you to understand. https://www.google.com/search?aq=0&oq=nec+wir&ix=aca&sourceid=chrome&client=ubuntu&channel=cs&ie=UTF-8&q=nec+wire+ampacity

Here's another site that I find helpful. http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/forum.php?s=4c02c9314f74815c2b5ebe54489cfecb

If you still have doubts and questions, get an electrician. They are expensive but cheaper than a blown inverter or setting the house on fire.  ;D
Phil

gww

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2012, 05:20:25 AM »
Phil
It is amazing what comes from a search engin when you type the right subject matter into it.  I have been doing quite a bit of reading and I believe your post will help.
I also have been up down and around that other forum even though I never joined it. Time to re-visit.  I believe I will be able to wire it safely and as I put lazyness in my topic heading I will take all reasonable short cuts in gaining the knowladge I need.  What did you think about my second post on wheather in the house or in the garage?
I also don't have a wide range of knowladge on where and what wiring componants are out there for resonable prices.  If some of my questions have spicific answer that can't be wrong please throw it out there for me.  I know it takes time to post links and even answer and I thank you.
gww

Volvo farmer

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2012, 07:54:45 AM »
With that many questions, you might want to hire an installer.  The guy I hired was very helpful and let me be his assistant. He charged several hundred dollars for a days work, but I learned quite a bit in the process and have since been able to expand and modify my system without having to hire anyone because of what I learned that day. It was also much easier to pass inspection when the electrical inspector saw a familiar name on the paperwork.

I agree with Phil that the guys on the windsun forum are pretty helpful on install questions.  I would not lay so much out there at once though. Chop what you need to know into bite sized pieces and ask questions slowly and one at a time.
Less bark, more wag.

phil b

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2012, 01:38:51 PM »
GWW,

I don't think it matters where you put your equipment. Look at the advantages and disadvantages of both.

Disclaimer, I am not a professional electrician but have been doing this for 30+ years all over the midwest. I do, however, have other credentials that are usually accepted unless the inspectors brother is an electrician or I have made stupid mistakes and ignored NEC. So you can take all this typing as a grain of salt. This is just what I do.

OK, this is the thought process I do with the systems I have built, simplified.

Determine where you want your system located.

Isolate the batteries and their corrosive air from everything else.

Use graph paper to cut out dimensions of all the items in the systems.
Use a second piece of graph paper as a 'board' to move the pieces around to get them to fit the way you want them. Be sure to use the graph paper scales. Leave enough room between components to be able to hook them up without being a contortionists.

Size all the wire and wire runs with the NEC wiring charts. Now, this is my deviation from NEC. I use one size wire larger than required for wind and solar. Use Ohm's law for resistance and determine the power you will loose in the system for each peticular run. You want less than 2% loss system wide. If you don't do this, you will pay for it in power for the rest of the system life.

Now you know the wire size, go back to NEC diagrams and pictures and decide how you are going to put that wire into pipe to protect it, you and the kids that will inadvertently think this is a coolest monkey bar setup they have ever seen. Use 40% on the conduit fill tables to put the wire into the pipe.

No holes, gaps in the wiring, boxes or nothing else. Don't substitute parts that look the same.

Grey PVC is easy to work with.

Use a dull knife or a stripper when removing insulation from wires. Sharp knives can nick the wires which can cause them to break off later.

When you are wiring the neutral in the breaker box or any other box that has a 'thingy' you screw onto the wire to hold it in place, be sure to show both sides of the copper wire on each side of the connection. An inspector looks to see if you have screwed the nut down onto the insulation.

NEC= SAFETY period. No exceptions.

The guy over on the NAWS site has a spreadsheet the is one of the best I have seen. He posts frequently, so it should be easy to find.

I hope this helps and does not get you into big trouble. Pros are worth their money but you seem bent on doing it yourself. That's why i posted this.



Phil

Mary B

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2012, 03:17:21 PM »
Your location would help decide where to put the batteries. Far north MN where I am mine are in a porch that stays above freezing.

gww

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2012, 04:52:47 PM »
Volvo farmer
I thought about breaking my questions into smaller bits.  I decided to lay most of it out and see what I got as when I try to find it again I can look here easily and I didn't know if I might spark individual interest to specific portions of my over all questions.
I figure I can keep coming back untill you guys get rough with me or I get it.

Phil B
Couple of things.  I don't know that I am totally opposed to using professionals.  I do talk to the electritions at work regularly and on some portions when the subject deals with these types of items (re) they seem to have no ideal.  Many of you have already been through this many times.  I have a year to study up before I can even start to install all the stuff that I have.  Also I built the turbines and a whole bunch of the solar and I kinda want to do the rest.  Pride issues? 

You get little things here that you can get no where else, like;  The turbines I built didn't work out the absolute best from the plans I used and one of the published fixes is to run wire with a 30% loss.  This fix is from the plans creater.  You just can't find this stuff from anywhere but a place like this.

I love the real world solutions that you give.  Paper templets,  gray pvc, neutral wiring ect...

I admit to being lazy and not wanting to learn ohms law and using charts rather then math for wire sizing.  Much of the equpment I bought came with sub panels and all I have to do is wire them.  I still after much reading am at this time confused on what can and cannot be used for combiner boxes or shutoffs and such.  Partly because I can't actually see the stuff as I still have to get it.  I do believe there is knowladge that could tell me what wire to use for a 200' run 3300 watt 90 volt pv aray or whether it is redundant to put breakers in the combiner box, dc shut off and dc electric panel with out having to do the math or look at charts.  Perhaps it seems unfair to not make someone go through the same prosess of learning so that they have to know and not just be hooking up stuff.  That last statement was not a criticism of the advise I was given.  I am thanking you for that.  I am just greedy and will take all of such good advise as I can get.

MaryAlana
I live in Missouri.  Even in my garage I am sure at times that it gets below freezing.  I am having a really hard time trying to figure where I want to inigrate my system.  The batteries are just one issue.  There is not good room by my main panel and it is in a family type room in my basement.  Even if I put the batteries along the house it would put them alot further the say 6' away from the inverter.  I also worry about contoller noises. 

If I put them in the unfinised portion of my basement then the load wires from the main panel would all have to be lenthened by about 50 to 60 feet.

If I put it in the garage then I can't use the outback sub panel except to run a wire to another sub panel (that I would have to buy)  placed by my main panel.  The main panel would be maby 60' away from the garage.
Also I am kind of an indesisive person.

Thank you all
gww

gww

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2012, 08:09:54 PM »
My understanding is welding wire does not meet code?

To series/paralel wire the batteries, use 2 awg?

solar panels,  If more then 3 series hooked in parelel must be fused?

Am I on the right track or is some of the above wrong?

Three pole shut off, does this mean one posative. one negative and one ground wire coming in for one solar aray or does it mean thee arays?


Thanks
gww

gww

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2012, 04:42:33 PM »
Ok,  PV arays,  one 2800watt aray of 3-29 volt 7.6 amp panels (8.6 amps unloaded) wired in series and 4 series wired in parelel.
1.  As I have 4 series that have to be wired in parelel I have to fuse each series. 15 amp fuses?  If breakers are used do I need to reverse the polarity of the breaker to protect the panels?

2.  Is this the 125% rule or the 156.25% rule?

3.  12 gage wire to wire panels and from panels to the combiner box?

Second aray,  1800 watts,  17 volt panels at 3.6amps wired 5 in series and 6 series in parelel.

1.  8 to 10 amp fuse?  and the rest the same as above?

Wire from the combiner box to the charge controller, inverter aprox 200 feet away. On the 2800 watt aray it is aprox 38 amps.
1.  6 gage wire?   16% voltage drop?  If you have 1-3 wires in the race way does one positive and one negative and one ground count as two or does it count as one?
2.  50 amp minimum breaker, 60 amp max?

Help!!!!   
Thanks
gww

gww

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2012, 05:06:52 PM »
Hello
This is my effort to show what I am working with and also my efforts to size wire and components to fit this diagram.

I have changed my above wire size from the combiner box to the shut off from 6 awg to 2/0.

Sorry I draw so badly.  I may be the only guy you know that took art in school cause I thought it would be easy and then almost failed.

The out back diagram give me pause as for as the ground goes as I had thought they had changed the ruling on grounding by the panels and required you to run to your house ground.   That being the case I was intending to run the ground through the conduit and ground with my house ground.  Could you please correct me if I am wrong on this.

I am having great difficulty trying to figure what size pvc I will need to buy to end up with a 40% fill rate using 4 strands of 2/0 wire and one strand of 6 gage bare for the ground.  The 2/0 wire is .420 inch diametor and .1045 inch cross sectional.  Can any one help me?

The out back doesn't show a dc shutoff and just shows the pv going to the dc panel.  Do I need it?  I know I will need one for the turbines as they will bypass the dc panel and go strait to the batteries.  They will also have to be fused.  Am I wrong in not having breakers in the shut off and is that even a cheeper way to go?

Maby really crazy but could I get rid of one of the 2/0 wires coming from the pv and combined the negetive wires as they both go to the same buss bar and it is the positive that is fused?

Do the fuses look correct for the pv arays.  I built the pv with the evergreen 3.6 amp cells and don't know if that is short circit or under load amps.  At the nec 156% rating does a 6 to 8 amp fuse, which ever is lowest, seem correct?  Also if the breakers are used am I correct that I need to reverse the polarity as they are to protect the panels.

Is anything glarringly wrong or missing?  Does any one looking know where I can get the exact components I need with for a decent price.  I have the ac and dc sub panels already with the outback altough if I happen to put the inverter in the garage I will need even one more ac panel.  Home depo?  I looked on midnight solar site but they have so many options that I don't really know what to get to fit my needs.  The shutt off makes me want to buy 3 of the battery turn knobs but I don't really know.

I know this is to many questions in one post but I would apreteate any thing you pick out and are willing to answer.

Thanks
gww
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 05:54:36 PM by gww »

Tritium

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2012, 06:14:55 PM »
If you haven't purchased the Sams Club batteries yet then take a tip from a 5 year user of their batteries:  Look at the Battery Joe's Crown Deep Cycle 350Ah (CR350). they are WAY more robust a battery and yes more expensive as well. I am replacing my worn out 5 year old Sams with the BJ's Crown's.

Thurmond

gww

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2012, 06:33:10 PM »
Thurmond
I will take a look at them.  Five years doesn't seem that bad untill the five years is up.  I think sams are rated for like 900 cycles.  I will look at the crowns.
Thank you
gww

PS
I'm going to regret not having bought you cc's.  I just hate to spend on the home made panels I have cause I don't trust them to last.

gww

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2012, 06:55:54 PM »
Thurmond
$3344 for sixteen of them.  There is no info on the batteries so I will have to look it up.  Aslo no core charge listed.  Does this sound right?  The shipping to indiana is $9.40  and to Missouri is $12 something.  Is this your exspereince with them?  700 amp hours as opposed to 416 amp hours.  I guess I will have to look the battery stats  up.  $1600 for the sams club batteries.  I take it you were not that happy with them.
Even if I don't end up taking you advice.  Which I might.  I really apreteate having some kind of choice.
Thank you
gww

Tritium

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2012, 12:16:54 AM »
Sams Club Batteries seem to vary in OEM according to each Club location and also which OEM has supplied them over a period of time. My Club originally had US Battery as a supplier and they were VERY good but later changed to Continental which were acceptable and even later switched to a Chinese import  :-X . All were branded alike and sold as the same battery which they plainly were not. So your mileage may vary WIDELY according to your local Sams Club and the OEM battery supplier they use. Crown are industrial batteries and have a very rugged construction. They build a lot of forklift battery banks (very good but expensive RE solution) which go for some very serious bucks. They are more in line with the top tier RE battery manufacturers such as Rolls Surette and Trojan. You can also get by with less of the 350Ah batteries in a bank than the Sams 210's or 220's (3 pairs of Crown's 350's for 5 pairs of Sams 210's in a 12V system for example). In the previous example the money is not that much different IMHO for the difference in lifetime of a "well maintained bank".

Thurmond

gww

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2012, 05:39:17 AM »
Thurmond
I am stuck to buying 8 batteries at a time as I have a 48 volt system.  The batteries at $209 each seems very good as every where else has them at $350 or higher.  Two things give me a little pause. I have read several comments that the L16 battery is notorious for leakage and the manufacture says to equalize these batteries weekly.  That is a lot of charging.  I am so new that I have no first hand expireance using anything.  I believe I have enough charging ability to handle a 700 amp hour bank.  I am worried that untill I get alittle practice I may ruin my first bank out of stupidity.  I couldn't find the expected cycle life any where but am researching.  I don't want to buy them this early cause I don't want them to be a year old before I can use them,  so I have a little time.  Battery joes seens to be reasonable.  I hope it stays that way.
Thank you
gww

Tritium

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2012, 12:20:48 PM »
My Sams batteries ALL leak as well after 5 years around the top of the case where it was welded but they have seen quite a lot of high and low temperature abuse. I am putting my new bank in my cellar where the temp will remain more of less in the low 70's year round. I will also be using a battery cap that reduces water usage and battery acid fumes escaping. A learning set of batteries is a good idea as that is what my Sams batteries were. I will barely have enough amperage from my array's to provide C-10 charging current for my new bank (1050Ah - 105A charging current needed). Don't buy your batteries till you are ready for them. I have made that mistake before and all it got me was a shorter battery service life.

Thurmond

gww

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2012, 03:53:34 PM »
Thurmond
I have about 4800 watts but when I wire it I will probly end up with about 4600 watts cause to keep the voltage the same I have to wire the homade in blocks of 300 watts.

That probly comes to about 50 amps before mppt however The volts will be coming in at over 85v so I haven't did the math of what I might actually have.

Do most battery caps fit all batteries?  If they do could you post a link of the caps you are going to use?  Or tell me the name so I can look it up?  They have some pretty neet quick release caps where I work.

I am jealous of your new bank.  1050 amp hours is great.  I hope they last you a zillion years.  Man this is an expensive hobby.

I do thank you for your advise.
gww

Tritium

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2012, 08:18:21 PM »
http://www.solar-electric.com/batwatmiscap.html  (will not work with any but my latest Sams which are post Interstate issue).

Thurmond

gww

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2012, 08:29:27 PM »
Thurmond
Thanks
gww

phil b

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2012, 12:08:09 AM »
You will have to find the caps elsewhere. NAWS does not carry them any longer.

"We no longer carry the Hydrocaps, due to excessively long lead times and poor delivery."

Phil

ghurd

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2012, 09:06:12 AM »
... the manufacture says to equalize these batteries weekly.  That is a lot of charging.

Usually, that type of battery gets abused every day.
In a decently designed RE system, I doubt (Hope!) it will not be anywhere near the abuse they are expected to get.
The more abused they are, the more often they need equalized.

I think most guys equalize once a month?
G-
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

gww

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2012, 07:55:37 PM »
G
I doubt it will be a decently designed system but I'm working on it.  Right now I am still thinking on the sams club batteries but $209 aint bad is it. 
Thanks
Glenn

gww

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Re: Lazyness,wiring help
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2012, 05:12:21 PM »
Phil
I moved this post to the forum you linked to in your responce to me.  They were very helpful and I believe I have most of it figured out now.  I still have some trouble understanding grounding but I believe I will get it wired correctly. 
Great suggestion
gww