Author Topic: poll of sort, life of electronics  (Read 6738 times)

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gww

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poll of sort, life of electronics
« on: January 31, 2013, 03:51:55 PM »
I have read over and over to expect about 10 years out of inverters, charge controllers etc.  I have had a washing machine last over 20 years.  What is your real life experiance with your electronics?
Thanks
gww

gww

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2013, 04:07:32 PM »
Also if they fail, do you repair and if not why?
Thanks
gww

PS
I ment to put this under the heading "controls".  Oh well

12AX7

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2013, 10:54:39 PM »
It might be a little bit off "subject"   but it's really close (I think)

I own a Collins S Line  Amateur radio  and I believe that it was manufactured in 1959.   The receiver has a "leaky" cap in the power supply and one of these days I'll take the time to replace it.  Other than that it's still fully functional (the receiver, transmitter and power suppy).

I also own a "The Fisher"  500c stereo receiver.  It was manufactured in 1964.   About 4 years ago I replaced a selenium rectifier and it is also fully functional.

It's my opinion that  "they don't make em like they use to".

OperaHouse

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2013, 05:11:07 AM »
The only component wit a predictable failure rate is the electrolytic capacitor.  These are a "wet"part they evaporate fron the endcaps at a higher rate due to heat.  Looking at the printing of one there will be a temperature rating.  It might say 85C or 105C. At the rated temperature it only has a rated life of about 2,000 hours.  A year is about 8,000 hours.  For every 10C temperature drop the life will double.  At reaonable temperatures the life can easily be 20 years.  Placement on a board next to hot components and poor ventilation can greatly shorten life.

The worst example I have ever seen eas a Sony top of the line $1300 VHS tape recorder.  Power supply was in a poorly ventilated metal box, heat sink was jammed right against the capacitors, and the board was changing color.  I couldn't even fit in ssome replacement capacitors of the same basic form fir.  That was a tightly packed board.  11 capacitors tested open or were below 10% of stated value.

JW

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2013, 08:23:08 AM »
I moved this thread to controls, I think Damon accidentally put this in the heating section.

JW

Mary B

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2013, 03:02:35 PM »
generally 7 years is considered average electronics lifespan. When I was repairing consumer electronics if a TV or VCR was over 7 years old I would tell the customer that a repair may only keep it running another year or two before it fails. Generally that seemed to be about right.

JW

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2013, 03:51:19 PM »
I have this neon lamp/sign that I got in 1992, I have left it running 24 hours a day and it still works to this day. Im totally amazed by this.

JW

midwoud1

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2013, 04:42:52 PM »
I've build electronic circuits ,home app.

Centralheater waterpump economy switch:  35 years working.
Post indicator ,to check if there is a letter in the postbox : 25 years.
Anemometer  electronics to convert puls rate to variable voltage: 20 years.
Propeller Rpm. digital counter : 14 years.
Pitch-control Rpm . counter switch . 2 years.

The lifetime depends on the quality of the components.
Cheapstores sell many times disqualified products.
Type id. stamped on it but no name like Texas Instruments or National-Semiconductors etc.

Rgds  -Frans -

richhagen

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2013, 05:37:00 PM »
There are a lot of variables which would effect the life of a particular circuit.  I know my Trace inverter is much older than 7 years, and still kicking, but I had a Dell motherboard go out in less than two with bad capacitors.  It seems to me that electrolytic capacitors are often culprits in failed circuits I have and the 7 year average, which I have heard other places as well, probably applies to most circuits with cheap electrolytic caps.  I had an old transistor radio that must have been 35 years old or  more and still worked, so to me it seems there are a lot of variables.  Just my 3 Cents worth.  Rich
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DamonHD

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2013, 07:00:50 PM »
JW: thanks for fixing my complete failure to actually read!  B^>

Rgds

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mab

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2013, 07:29:00 PM »
most of my electronic stuff is older than 7 years - 'scope 1960's? radio 70's, various bits from 80's and 90's - even this cheap acer laptop I'm typing this on is circa 2005... uh-oh...  :P

Caps seem to be the worst thing on modern stuff, though I did have an early 70's TV which still used valves (vacuum tubes) for the line o/p, frame o/p and audio amp, and most of the problems with that were resistors going open circuit (carbon rod? resistors).

mab

electrondady1

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2013, 07:32:59 PM »
i'm running a 1967 traynor bass master amp.
 sounds fat through twin 15's

i own a 1920 Atwater Kent radio but i cant make it go

Treehouse

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2013, 08:48:13 PM »
Slightly off topic :) but on the note of capacitors, has anyone looked at the new super capacitors made with a dvd burner?

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/122763-graphene-supercapacitors-are-20-times-as-powerful-can-be-made-with-a-dvd-burner

They don't say what the self discharge rate is, but could make a very cheap RE battery with over 10,000 cycle use. I would love to get my hands on one or find some carbon oxide and try to make one myself.

Dennis..

hiker

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2013, 02:45:01 AM »
the house  we moved into had a old G.E. fridge...worked great for years -just had to change out the temp controler
2 or
WILD in ALASKA

hiker

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2013, 03:06:16 AM »
strange---dang thing posted before i was done ?
like i was saying just had to change out the temp controler a few times over the years..
still works great !!  but my wife got tired of defrosting it every few months--so i bought a new one for her this past summer---one of those so called energy effiant models.. what a joke---it  runs longer and noiser than my old fridge!
plus it comes on more often than the old fridge--my old one had a lot more insulation than this new piece of ---- !
  dang im real tempted to drag the old girl back in the house---but my other old girl just might get up and  leave if i did !!   dang  - now i have to ponder over which old girl to keep.............?  :}
ps: that old fridge was made back in the 60s....they made stuff to last back in the day....!
and of course they realized their mistake and now make things to fail  !!   gotta keep the ball rolling right !
WILD in ALASKA

gww

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2013, 05:08:08 AM »
Thanks all
When the elecrolytic cap goes, does it take out every thing around it or is it's replacement usually a fix?  I bought used equipment and am just trying to plan for what is best if I have problims.  Repair or replace?   I have had no problims yet (not installed) I am just trying to assess my purchase or future purchases.
Thanks
gww

OperaHouse

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2013, 09:30:35 AM »
Generally the caps can be just replaced unless they short and take out other componentd.  Switching supplies have much higher currents and cap will begin heating before they fail as ESR increases.  Those caps shown in the BZ 500 are just too small for really lomg life.  Whatever current the controller sees is what will be going through the cap.  You wouldn't make your connections with number 20 wire but many dont think twice about putting many amps through a capacitor.  Many in parallel is the best solution.

Interesting story about reliability.  In the early 70's my mentor was head of biomedical engineering at a major teaching hospital.  He had people on life support with external pacemakers he had built.  These were made from musical metrone modules.  You know, those sold in the back of mags like Popular Mechanics for $1.99 potted with epoxy in a muffin tray.  I asked him if he worried about those units failing and killing someone.   He said the paitients were on monitors and there were always nurses around.  The medical world has seen some changes since then.

bob g

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2013, 10:09:10 AM »
exeltech mx series inverters are advertized at 20 years mtbf

and it is my understanding that they have extended this to 40 years?

either way a very long time indeed.

bob g
research and development of a S195 changfa based trigenerator, modified
large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
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dnix71

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2013, 11:48:57 AM »
Yeah, it's the caps. I had an Apple eMac bought new that failed in 3 years because power supply caps went. The caps had ratings that couldn't have been real considering their size. There wasn't enough room to replace them with honestly rated caps from any legit supplier.

I collect and repair CDV-700's. The HV caps are the first fix usually done. Selenium rectifiers are the second. A CDV runs on 900+ vdc and that is at the limit of the probe cable and many components.

The germanium power transistors in the CDV present a different problem. Without changing the bias there are certain models that will not work if modern silicon transistors are used because the Si ones won't oscillate the way the Ge did.

The selenium to silicon diode substitution is potentially dangerous, too. Silicon switches faster and sharper. That raises the HV, which will break other things.

Those CDVs are 50 years old now, but I would trust them to detect radiation better after a war because they are completely analog. Radiation can corrupt anything with embedded software, like newer detectors that have a digital display.

OperaHouse

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2013, 01:16:44 PM »
I still have a large stock of varoius new germanium transistors.  I bought a large number of GT109 that were made in 69 at the end of the germanium era when they finally got things right.  Lowest leakage of any germanium I've ever seen.  The people who make fuzz boxes love them.  Say they perform better than anything else they have ever used.

gww

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2013, 04:09:58 PM »
How many of you have had outback products fail, (what I bought) and how long did they last? 

How many have had other brands of re products go for long periods? 

I have enjoyed your responces.  I still have an old black and white tv that was working when free tv went didgital.  The old freezers were HEAVY.
Cheers
gww

tanner0441

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2013, 04:47:47 PM »
Hi

When clearing my mother's house out when she had to go into a nursing home I found an old transistor radio she bought when I first started working in a TV repair shop back in the 50s, it is full of transistors than look like top hats, the only identification is a red or white dot. They no longer make the batteries for it but fed with 9 volts down wires it still worked, the volume pot crackled and had dead spots, and it drifted on MW for about 20 mins but was still listenable.

The leads on the transistors are rusty, and the paint it peeling of the cans, and as I say the pot has dead spots, but it plays. There was also a TI four function calculator with tiny little LEDs in the display. Though I don't remember removing the old batteries, at some time I must have done, I can't see either of my parents having done it. Any way put new batteries in and it powered up. It had a switch on the side not a button on the keyboard.

I also used to collect old radios, the ones in the wooden boxes with the valves and coils in a felt lined box that they were stored in when not in use. Again you can't buy batteries, and I doubt the guys in the shop would ever have heard of a grid bias battery, and no one has accumulator charging facilities, but they were over forty years old then and they worked given the correct voltages.

I am still not convinced that manufacturers don't program failure into the new stuff, washing machines seem to die when the drum bearing fails, fridges all seem to lose their gas charge, and modern TVs seem the suffer with dead cells on the screen.

Brian.
 

dnix71

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2013, 07:17:07 PM »
tanner0441, there are replacements for those odd voltage batteries used in tube devices. The model 3 and older CDV-700s used vacuum tubes for HV instead of oscillating transistors into a coil.

http://www.civildefensemuseum.com/southrad/cdv700.html The size B 45v battery replacement is usually just five common 9v strung in series. The C bias battery or called GB in the UK is 4.5v. Thats trivial to make too, since alkaline cells now hold more juice in the same size package as the old carbon-zinc cells did.

The ability of alkalines to push lots more current can sometimes cause problems in a CDV. If something fails now there can be a lot more current behind whatever failed. If you short the probe cable the meter will peg and the audio squeal. With carbon-zinc cells, that's annoying, with high power alkalines that may fry transistors because of the sustained current surge. There were no heat sinks on those transistors, the metal can was enough in normal use.

OperaHouse

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2013, 09:26:34 PM »
Nice article on the CDV.  I actually have one of those somewhere.  Haven't seen it in a while, not since someone borrowed it to check out an industrial complex that was being dismantled.  He had heard rumors that the facility had been used to assemble some military nuclear assembly.  Sure enough the meter came to life when it was stuck down on a concrete crack.

ghurd

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2013, 10:26:28 AM »
If you dig deep enough, many electronic components have a predicted life expectancy, usually based on operating temp.
The cooler the better.
I try to under-rate and over-kill everything semiconductor so it stays cool to the touch.

I also try to avoid electroltics if at all practical.
G-
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thirteen

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2013, 12:45:27 PM »
It seem like most of the stuff we use today are only designed to last a few years. We are a throw away nation. Our cars do not last. Nor does it seem like anything over 10 years is not even worth fixing and in many cases there is no one to fix them. I used to fix old radios and Tv's for years. but that way of life is gone in the good old USA. After a house fire I could not justify getting the equipement that I used to have to work on things. Plus I'm like the equipement I used to repair. I'm an over 60 and have been put back together a couple of times and I still work but not like when I was 30. 13
MntMnROY 13

kitestrings

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2013, 01:35:06 PM »
I have a few RE favorites that have hung with me well:

We have a Trace inverter that is a out 26-yo. I still use it out in the shop to power the overhead doors, lights, and some light duty tools. We also use the charger in the unit to top off a small battery bank, when there is extra power available. We started with a mdl #1512, but soon traded up for 'turbo' (read fan cooled) #2012. I remember thinking it was a work of modern genius after operating only rotary & square-wave inverters up 'til then.

We had only one repair, about 12 years ago the coil control transistors had to be replaced that toggle it into charger mode when an AC source is available (for charging).

We also have a small RV fridge that is 'unique'. It uses a Danfoss compressor - it's freon; not ammonia/ thermal like most of them today - which comparatively use ~4-5 times the energy. It was sold by Dometic - though they denied it until produced an owner's manual, and they found someone nearing retirement - and manufactured, I eventually learned, by a company called Nova Kool (BC, Canada) for Winnebago.  It's a sealed compressor with an electronically commutated motor. Anyway it just keeps going. The electronic control failed about 10-12 years ago and I had to replace it.

We also have several of these "Zane" (CO, US i think) DC dimmer/ speed reducers, some of which are 25 yo. Never had one fail

Lastly, the controller in our Sencenbaugh has been smoked numerous times by lightning, but largely proven to be reliable. It was manuf in~1981. Lightning IMO is the nemesis of wind electronics & power diodes.  It's like kids pants; they're outgrown before they wear out.

Regards,

~kitestrings
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 01:41:57 PM by kitestrings »

Mary B

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2013, 03:59:21 PM »
Used to see ~2 1/2 year lifespans on monitors at the casino where I repaired electronics. Electrolytics would fail then other components would self destruct. One of the favorite calls from a new floor person was "help a monitor is on fire".  Turn the dang thing off already so the fire goes out :lol: most would keep running and the high voltage section would keep pumping a nice arc.

Xan

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2015, 02:59:35 AM »
I got a Peavy 5150 guitar amp in late 1994 and it still goes well to this day..! But those things are put together a bit better than cheap solid state stuff made in the P.R.C..!  :D Unfortunately there is not a lot of use for it now we are off the grid, and this thing draws nearly 400 watts to keep all the bottles warm..! Come to think of it I also have a couple of ancient tube oscilloscopes too and they go fairly well too, although one doesn't have as sharp a focus as it should.

Flux

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2015, 05:08:35 AM »
Generally temperature and how hard things are pushed mainly determine life.

Quality inverters should last a long time, cheap msw ones may only last 5 years,

As a kid I used to repair radios and tvs, then electrolytics were troublesome, carbon pots ( volume controls and similar ) were dreadful and still are. The old carbon rod resistors were fairly reliable if not pushed, when pushed to full rating failure was regular.
Paper capacitors became leaky and certain makes were notorious.

Valves ( tubes) survived well in certain applications, in radios the low power ones lasted well, the output and rectifier needed changing regularly.

Valves were an absolute pain in anything where the characteristics were important, in the line and frame circuits of a tv or in any digital device such as the early Racal counters they were real trouble.

Industrial electronics not built to a price survived much better, much of the older test equipment had a good long life.

The semiconductor era generally improved lifetime as the power dissipation was reduced drastically. Resistor failure is a thing of the past, plastic film capacitors came in about the same time and solved the capacitor problem except for electrolytics.  Electrolytics have got much better and when not pushed and kept cool they give little trouble, I have some audio amplifiers that have run for 50 years with little capacitor trouble. Modern consumer electronics runs them so hot that they again become a big problem.

Actual semiconductors are very reliable, there were failures with certain fast germanium transistors using the alloy diffused process but the OC71 still keeps going.

Some of the early 741 op amps have gone noisy or failed in some of my kit but they were introduced a long time ago.

For something built to a standard rather than a price such as a good inverter you should see 20 years, consumer junk from China usually goes out of fashion before it dies, life expectancy is unlikely to reach 5 years.

Repair now is near impossible except for changing boards unless you are very young, I can't see well enough to go messing about with surface mount stuff on boards. Changing fets and capacitors is possible but I find it near impossible to mend anything without a circuit diagram and usually you can't get it for anything other than the high end devices. Random changing of parts without a circuit to see what caused it has never worked for me, but a few devices may have weaknesses that someone has spotted and put on youtube but even then changing parts without finding the cause might end up in a chain reaction and a lot of smoke.

I am now forced to accept that we live in a throw away society, the saving factor is that relatively things are cheaper than ever before. In my younger days everything was expensive beyond your means, you had to save up for ages to get something and when you got it you mended it and kept it going for ever.

Flux

gww

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2015, 10:39:28 AM »
Flux
Quote
And if I read gww's post correctly, it sounds like it will be ok if the inverter charger drops the current as the voltage rises to 28.0
 

I agree.  I did have to change the boards on one of my outback inverters and they are still expensive enough to warrent the change (which was not cheap) compared to buying new.  It did give me an appretiation for outback that thei design was good enugh that it hasn't change enough in ten years that parts are still availible.
gww

Mary B

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Re: poll of sort, life of electronics
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2015, 07:00:43 PM »
In modern electronics the number one failure is the electrolytic capacitors. I have swapped them twice in my TV for the back light, 3 times in one monitor. Both are about 10 years old...