Author Topic: My 3d printed generator  (Read 17353 times)

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karlb

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My 3d printed generator
« on: May 20, 2013, 07:20:47 AM »
So, I have a 3d printer, and thought that using it to print the stator and rotor would be a good idea.
I've started out small with 8 neodymium magnets of 10x10x20mm.
they are evenly spaced on the rotor which has a diameter of 110mm.
See the CAD diagram, the magnets go in each of the rectangular holes.
I have 8 coils spaced evenly as you can see in the other cad diagram, the wedges are for winding the coils around.
The dimensions of the wedges are 5x20x30x20mm (smaller width, larger width ,length, height)
I'm not at home at the moment, so I will attach real pictures tonight.
It's currently making about 6v at 5mA, so 30mw when I spin it with a power drill at a few hundred rpm.
The 8 coils are all wired in series.
I was expecting to get alot more power out of this, and after reading around, I'm thinking it might be better to have 6 coils wired in 3 phase star configuration.
Would this be better? Please suggest improvements

KarlB.

electrondady1

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2013, 07:35:14 AM »
you  need a layer of mild steel or iron behind the magnets.
as well, another iron disk that rotates in sync with the mag rotor on the back side of the coils.
that will create a flux return path.

karlb

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2013, 08:36:19 AM »
Thanks, I will do this and see what happens, although I was planning to add another layer of coils behind the magnets too, but adding the steel plate will prevent me from doing this.
So which option would increase the power the most?
KarlB.

electrondady1

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2013, 08:51:15 AM »
that is the idea that occurs to all of us initially,
 using both sides of the magnets and two stators
but what your really want is the flux from two rotors and 1/2 as much copper in the sweet spot in between to reduce resistance .

 your trying to manipulate the direction of the flux so that it cuts through the copper at 90 degrees.
 

karlb

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2013, 09:06:42 AM »
Thanks, I understand now. Will get hold of some steel plate and do this soon.
How much of a benefit would changing to 6 coils and 3 phase give over of 8 coils and single phase?
KarlB.

electrondady1

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2013, 10:01:07 PM »
that all depends on what you want to do with the juice and at what speed your alternator will spin at ,
my vertical mills rotate slowly .
i opted for single phase initially now i do two phase.

karlb

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2013, 07:39:45 PM »
Here are some pics as promised.
I obtained some thin mild steel sheet (around 1mm thick) so I have added 5 discs of this above the magnets as you can see in the photos.
This has raised the voltage from 6 to about 9, but the current is still measly at a few tens of milliamps.
I'm trying mounting the stator on some brackets so that I can get a steel disc underneath them too. Should that raise the voltage by another 1.5 times?
I am quite dissapointed with this. I'd be happy with at least a few watts at 18v, not MILLI watts!
that all depends on what you want to do with the juice and at what speed your alternator will spin at ,
my vertical mills rotate slowly .
i opted for single phase initially now i do two phase.
I'd like to optimise for a slower rotation speed.
So would 6 coils, 3 phase be better?
Would I not loose power because of having 3 rectifiers instead of 1?
KarlB.

birdhouse

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2013, 07:50:46 PM »
after looking at your photos, it appears that everything is way too thick.  even the gaps between the "sheet metal" are hurting your output.  find some 1/8" or better yet 1/4" steel and that will help.  also, the stator should be way thinner as well. 

it's hard to tell from the last photo, but it looks as though you have inches of build height with the rotor and stator, where, ideally the height of the whole unit should be less than an inch. 

IE:  magnets right up against steel, then on the open side of the mags, the coils should be ~1mm from the mags, and the coils themselves should be very thin as well.  this will give good flux density through the coils. 

adam

electrondady1

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2013, 08:48:20 PM »
i recommend your redesign your stator .
use a separate jig to turn the coils more precisely and insert them into a receptacle or mount onto a formed peg.

is there a way to view the mag rotor layout superimposed on the coil geometry?
your mags seem very widely spaced
you may not be getting a good match to your coil.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 08:58:48 PM by electrondady1 »

karlb

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2013, 04:22:56 AM »
i recommend your redesign your stator .
use a separate jig to turn the coils more precisely and insert them into a receptacle or mount onto a formed peg.
Thanks, I'm working on a coil winding jig.
is there a way to view the mag rotor layout superimposed on the coil geometry?
your mags seem very widely spaced
you may not be getting a good match to your coil.
Ive attached an image. The coils are in green and the magnets in red.

after looking at your photos, it appears that everything is way too thick.  even the gaps between the "sheet metal" are hurting your output.  find some 1/8" or better yet 1/4" steel and that will help.  also, the stator should be way thinner as well. 

it's hard to tell from the last photo, but it looks as though you have inches of build height with the rotor and stator, where, ideally the height of the whole unit should be less than an inch. 

IE:  magnets right up against steel, then on the open side of the mags, the coils should be ~1mm from the mags, and the coils themselves should be very thin as well.  this will give good flux density through the coils. 

adam
Yes, I will flatten the sheet metal in a vice as a temporary measure, as it has a few bends in it at the moment. in the long term I'll get some thicker steel as you suggested.
The coils are 22mm high, should I go for higher or lower?
Would I also benefit from thinner wire?
I'm trying to get the magnets as close to the coils as possible, but it is difficult as I need to get a good snug 90 degree fit of the rotor on the axis, with no tilt.
Thanks for you help guys.
KarlB.

electrondady1

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2013, 07:51:58 AM »
 
ok,
your mag spacing is too wide
the space between mags should be about the same width as the mags on the inside corners.
although lots of guys build with the mags even tighter than that.
 you will have to build on a smaller dia. or purchase more magnets to work at the present dia.

on a single phase design (one coil for each pole)the outer coil width is the width of a magnet plus the width of one space.
in order to create current properly the legs of the coils should be over two magnets at the same time.
on the coil jig, you wind the conductor around a centre section that is the same size as your magnet.
don't forget a parting angle so you can remove the coil easily.

i have often used a skill saw or table saw blade as a backing for magnets.
the coils should be no thicker than the magnets.
look for something called a locking collar for the centre shaft.

don't be discouraged , your building a machine
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 08:13:27 AM by electrondady1 »

karlb

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2013, 08:57:34 AM »
ok,
your mag spacing is too wide
the space between mags should be about the same width as the mags on the inside corners.
although lots of guys build with the mags even tighter than that.
 you will have to build on a smaller dia. or purchase more magnets to work at the present dia.
Ok,
I will do some redesigning on the CAD software and reduce the diameter of the rotor and move the magnets in.
on a single phase design (one coil for each pole)the outer coil width is the width of a magnet plus the width of one space.
in order to create current properly the legs of the coils should be over two magnets at the same time.
on the coil jig, you wind the conductor around a centre section that is the same size as your magnet.
don't forget a parting angle so you can remove the coil easily.

i have often used a skill saw or table saw blade as a backing for magnets.
the coils should be no thicker than the magnets.
look for something called a locking collar for the centre shaft.

don't be discouraged , your building a machine

This will not leave me much space to fit many turns of wire in. Will the fact that the magnets are closer make up for the less turns?
If I change to 6 coils and 3 phase, there will be a bit more space for more turns on the coils. Would this be a better option if I am reducing the diameter of the whole thing?
I'll be sure to post my CAD designs on here before I print them.
Cheers.
KarlB.

Flux

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2013, 12:17:02 PM »
I am not sure why you are trying this inefficient arrangement but if you must persist then don't make your coils thicker than half ther magnet thickness. You don't say anything about the magnet dimensions but you don't look to have much magnert to start with.

To do any good at all you need a decent steel plate that is flat and a minimum of 3mm thick. Wind the coils about half the magnet thickness, with holes about the size of the magnets and with enough turns to touch on the outside ( or nearly so).

On your last drawing the magnet spacing looks near enough but the coil holes need to be the size of your green bit and they need to touch each other.

Even so I suspect you will need a lot more magnet or you will need to run it at a fair speed to get much out of it.

You need good bearings and a decent mechanical arrangement, try to keep the gap between magnets and coils no more than 1mm.

With things spaced as you have it at present no useful flux will penetrate to the bottom of your coils, most of the copper is wasted.

Flux

karlb

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2013, 12:37:35 PM »
I am not sure why you are trying this inefficient arrangement
You must understand that I am new to this (from my post count) and I'm just designing things based on my own judgement, and the limited amount that I've been able to find online. I appreciate your constructive criticism however, and I'm open to any suggestions you can give me on how to make my arrangement more efficient.

but if you must persist then don't make your coils thicker than half ther magnet thickness. You don't say anything about the magnet dimensions but you don't look to have much magnert to start with.
I have 8 neodymium magnets of 10x10x20mm as stated in my first post. I know this is not much, but was at least expecting to get a few watts out of this, not milli watts. This is just supposed to be a proof of concept, and once I get my dimensions right I plan to scale this up and buy much bigger magnets and more wire. I just want to get an optimum design first at the small scale.
To do any good at all you need a decent steel plate that is flat and a minimum of 3mm thick. Wind the coils about half the magnet thickness, with holes about the size of the magnets and with enough turns to touch on the outside ( or nearly so).
Noted and will work on this. Thanks.
On your last drawing the magnet spacing looks near enough but the coil holes need to be the size of your green bit and they need to touch each other.
Yes, the coil holes are the green bit, and the coils slot onto this. Sorry, should have made this more clear.
Even so I suspect you will need a lot more magnet or you will need to run it at a fair speed to get much out of it.

You need good bearings and a decent mechanical arrangement, try to keep the gap between magnets and coils no more than 1mm.

With things spaced as you have it at present no useful flux will penetrate to the bottom of your coils, most of the copper is wasted.

Flux
Yes, I will obtain bearings and a locking collar as electrondady suggested
As I said, this is just a proof of concept but I want everything working as good as it can for the size it is first, and then I can scale up once I know the design is efficient.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 12:42:00 PM by karlbaker »
KarlB.

Flux

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2013, 12:59:10 PM »
Sorry , you did give magnet size but I missed it.

Try keeping your coils not more than 6mm thick, make the holes as per your green area but the hole need not be longer than 20mm, the extra overlap is just adding resistance.

Wind them full of wire so that they touch  each other.

See what you get then, you can always alter the volts by altering the number of turns to get what you want in the final thing.

I would expect a few Watts but you will need to spin it at something over 500rpm with those tiny magnets.

You could improve things at the expense of 8 more magnets by making it dual rotor.  You might improve the exixting arrangement bu adding another steel sisc under the coils, it will certainly increase the output but it will come at a price in terms of drag from eddy currents in the stationary disc.

If you can sort out the mechanical arrangements you could spin the second disc to avoid the eddy loss and still concentrate the flux but it will need to be a good mechanical set up to gain much, the gap between magnets and coils needs to be small and so does the gap between blank disc and coils.

Flux

karlb

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2013, 01:08:58 PM »
Thanks for your reply flux, that's very helpful.
Will be spending most of this bank holiday weekend making those improvements  ;)
Will be sure to report back.
KarlB.

Flux

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2013, 01:23:25 PM »
In one of your photos you look to have got the idea of winding the coils full so they touch but the winding needs tidying up to get the wire in more efficiently. On the final picture either it hasn't got windings on or there is a big gap between coils.

To get lots of turns in with coils 6mm thick they need to be nicely wound, preferably on a former rather than hand winding round your present plastic former.

Regarding the 6 coil 3 phase arrangement, it may possibly be marginally better but on such a small machine the improvement may be slight, You actually don't loose out on the rectifiers as the 3 phase arrangement still has two diodes in series at any point. For larger machines the 3 phase arrangement runs much more smoothly but this shouldn't be an issue with anything under about 100W.

I think you will get there but the smaller the machine the more critical everything is. Something as small as that needs to be very well made.

Flux






karlb

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2013, 03:04:31 PM »
In one of your photos you look to have got the idea of winding the coils full so they touch but the winding needs tidying up to get the wire in more efficiently. On the final picture either it hasn't got windings on or there is a big gap between coils.
Yes, the coils were wound almost touching but they definitely needed tidying up. I have now made a winding jig though so they will be much better. And you're right that the final picture doesn't have windings on, I have two seperate stators that I'm testing and just handn't wound that one yet.
To get lots of turns in with coils 6mm thick they need to be nicely wound, preferably on a former rather than hand winding round your present plastic former.

Regarding the 6 coil 3 phase arrangement, it may possibly be marginally better but on such a small machine the improvement may be slight, You actually don't loose out on the rectifiers as the 3 phase arrangement still has two diodes in series at any point. For larger machines the 3 phase arrangement runs much more smoothly but this shouldn't be an issue with anything under about 100W.

I think you will get there but the smaller the machine the more critical everything is. Something as small as that needs to be very well made.

Flux

Thanks for the explanation about the 3 phase arrangement. With 3 phase, would the coil hole still be the same size as the magnets, and wind until the coils are touching?
One more question, where do you get your height of 6mm from? Is it based on magnet size? Please advise so that when I scale up I can do this right. Would it be double (12mm) if I had dual rotor?
KarlB.

gww

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2013, 04:15:14 PM »
I kept my coils to the magnet thickness even though I had two rotors.  I had half inch magnets and my stator was half inch thick.
cheers
gww
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 05:10:11 PM by gww »

Flux

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2013, 04:43:45 PM »
"One more question, where do you get your height of 6mm from? Is it based on magnet size? Please advise so that when I scale up I can do this right. Would it be double (12mm) if I had dual rotor?"

For a dual rotor you can work over a reasonable range of coil/magnet thickness. If the coils are too thin you run short of winding space but have a high flux density. With thick coils you have lots of winding space and low flux. The magnet is most effectively used when worked at about half Br ( for most neo that is about 600 - 650mT). That occurs roughly when the gap is just over one magnet thickness. For 10mm thick magnets, a good coil thickness would be 10mm.

For a single rotor with no defined flux return path you are working within the fringe field of the magnets, some flux will go straight from one pole to the next ( you can't use that). A few lines will go straight out and return from infinity but most will not penetrate more than a magnet thickness and even these will be very curved and will not link much of your coil.

That is why I said not to make the coils much more than half magnet thickness, it is to some extent a compromise between useful flux and winding space but the loss of flux becomes very considerable if the far side of the coil is a  magnet thickness away.

This was what I was inplying about the inefficient arrangement, even a modest closing of the magnetic circuit makes a great difference. The few turns right up against the magnet will work well but the far turns will be very inefficient, there comes a point where all you do is add resistance.

Flux

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2013, 11:41:48 PM »
your trying to manipulate the direction of the flux so that it cuts through the copper at 90 degrees.

Actually the 90 degrees thing is not an issue.  What matters is how much flux transfers from one side of the wire to the other, not what angle it is at with respect to the wire when it does so.

Efficient designs DO tend to have the angle near 90 degrees for most of the flux because that's a side-effect of packing things tightly so wire length is short and flux is dense.

====

The main problem with your genny is the thickness of the stator assembly.  The stator is "air gap" and should be reasonably thin - both to increase flux density from the magnets and to keep the flux going through the whole assembly.  The flux will want to fold over to the nearby opposite pole, rather than going through the coils, if the gap is wide compared to the pole spacing.  The path through the coils to the magnets or pole-pieces on the return-path metal on the opposite side should be substantially shorter than the distance between the magnet centers.

With the illustration shown the flux from the magnets will mostly be folding back to the adjacent magnets.  Only the top turns of your coils will be generating substantially and the rest will be mostly adding resistance.  Shorten the core and wind the coils to fill the space.  You'll both increase the field from the magnets and make more of it go through the coils.

For a given thickness of magnetic material you get less leakage flux if you have half the magnetic material on each side of the coils than if you have it all on one side.  This is because, though the combination of the fields from the material on the two sides is linear (up to saturation), the material near the coils contributes more field than the material farther from them.  If you take two thin magnets and put one on each side you have two magnets close to the coils.  If you stack them both on one side you have one close and one farther away.  The field is a dipole field so it falls off with the CUBE of the distance, so doubling the distance to one of the magnets divides the field from it by eight.

Air gaps in the magnetic path are like resistors in a current path:  The more air gap, the less flux.  Steel, or other (reasonably "soft") magnetic material, "conducts" magnetic flux by this mechanism:  Unpaired electrons line up their spin so their magnetic field is aligned with the ambient field.  The field from the electron gives as much boost to the field as it would weaken if the space weren
t occupied by the atom.   If you have a piece of steel backing the magnets, the field goes from the back of one magnet to the back of the next within the steel, and if the steel is thick enough for there to be enough lined-up electrons in the cross-section to "conduct" the entire strength of the field, the whole field will stay in the steel and stay strong despite the longer path.  If the steel is missing you can add the path of the field between the backs of the magnets (or through free space between the coils if there's no backing plate) to the total air gap in the path, and if the steel is too thin only part of the field gets the advantage and you have a middle ground.  (You can check by seeing if paperclips will stick to the back of the plate.  If they do, it's too thin and a lot of the field is taking a trip through the airl.)

Assuming the spacing between the magnet disks is enough smaller than the spacing between adjacent poles on the disk that the field mostly goes from disk to disk through the coils, the next questions are "How big should the air gap be?" and "How full of coils should it be?" to get the most out of the expensive magnets.  (This isn't ALWAYS the most important design issue, but starting from optimum for that gives you room to trade things away selectively, later.)

We'll start with how full to fill the space with windings:  With a given gap and field strength, and wire size, adding more turns raises both the voltage and resistance in proportion.  With a load to produce a given current, both power and loss goes up in proportion:  Efficiency stays constant and power goes up with the turns.  Similarly if the wires are fattened, keeping the current density constant, or if additional windings are added with the same number of turns:  Current goes up with added copper while voltage and loss percentage stays the same.  So at a given gap, flux, RPM, and current density, the amount of power is proportional to the amount of copper in the gap.  You want to come as close as possible to stuffing it solid with windings.  (This assumes you don't stuff it SO full you compromise cooling and have to reduce current density to avoid burnout.)

So assuming the only air gap is between the rotors and you stuff it full of copper windings (and we'll assume the clearance gap between the moving parts is small and ignore it):  How big should the gap be?

Starting from no gap (and thus no windings) and expanding the gap (and adding windings):  At first the drop in field with added gap is trivial.  The added power from added windings is almost directly proportional to the increase in the gap.  As the gap gets wider the cancellation from nearby poles increases more with each unit of gap increase.  At first the amount of power gained with each unit of increase is reduced, then levels off.  When the gap is very large the field falls off so rapidly that the added resistance of more windings loses more power than the added windings generate.  Somewhere in the middle is a gap, and an amount of copper, where the power is maximum.  (Because the curve levelled off this "sweet spot" is wide.  Being tens of percent off the optimum may make only a percent of difference in power.

It happens that, with the magnets evenly divided between the two rotors, the optimum is about where the gap-full-of-copper is about as thick as the thickness of the magnets on one of the two.

In addition to getting more out of your magnets by having half the material on each side of the coil assembly, you also have eddy-current losses if you drag the magnetic field through the return path behind the coils, but you don't have these if the backing plate turns with the field.  So even if you put all your magnets on one side you want the plate on the other side to spin with them.  If you're going to have a spinning plate, why not mount magnets on it?

So the optimum geometry to maximize power per unit of magnetic material is looks like a "short stack of pancakes", much shorter than it is broad, with everything co-rotating except the (coil) pancake at the center of the stack.  The top and bottom pancakes are the moderately-thick support/return-path disks, the next pancakes inward are the magnets, and the center one, with the coils, is about as thick as each of the ones with the magnets.

(Edited:  I had somewhere gotten the impression that the optimum gap/coil thickness was the total thickness of the magnets.  While I was composing, Flux posted, and he's more expert on this issue than I am, so I edited my post to match.)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 11:51:28 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Flux

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2013, 04:24:59 AM »
For widely spaced magnets the optimum gap is probably close to 2 magnet thickness. Alowing for a decent mechanical clearance on either side ,that gives a coil about 1.5 x magnet thickness.

In real life with normal magnet spacing, probably due to leakage flux things tend to work better with gap about 1.5 times magnet thickness. With mechanical clearance that gives a coil about magnet thickness.

For larger magnets the mechanical clearance is relatively less so you may do better with a slightly thicker coil but for the smaller magnets the mechanical gap gets a bit out of proportion to the total gap, this tends to be the case with the single rotor and spinning blank disc.

This is far from critical and anywhere in that region works perfectly well. With single rotors things fail rapidly if the coil is much above 1/2 magnet thickness due to the flux pattern.

Flux

karlb

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2013, 09:28:27 PM »
Okay, I have finally found the time to work on this again so here is my progress over the last few days (get ready for pictures!):

Assembly of the new stator, note that I am converting to three phase:


Assembly of a jig that will allow me to finely adjust the height of each corner of the stator for easy levelling:



Bearing assembly


Stator assembled with spinning flux return plate underneath. All ready to recieve the coils



Coils on


Coils wired up with phases colour coded


Complete assembly ready for testing


Changes:
-Converted to three phase with each of the pairs wired in series
-This gave me more winding room so there is more copper in there than when it was single phase
-Got some nice 626 ZZ bearings which allow it to spin really freely
-Put the rotor on an M6 threaded rod to allow me to easily adjust the air gap. You can see that my intention for this is a VAWT.
-Now using a rotating plate behind the coils for flux return
-Stator on a jig (explained earlier)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 10:05:46 PM by karlbaker »
KarlB.

karlb

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2013, 09:40:10 PM »
TEST RESULTS
(I love numbers  ;) )

So before I dismantled the coils to convert to 3 phase, I recorded my power output with a few different test loads.
I span the rotor with a hand drill at a few hundred rpm.
Conditions between the two are as close to the same as I could get ( both used flux return backing disc, same air gap, same rotation speed)
Although going from 8 coils to 6 allowed me to fit more turns in, even with the loss of two coils, so there is a bit more copper in there.



Power output against load
7407-1

Observations:
-I am getting slightly more power from three phase, around 8 watts compared to about 6.
-Power from the single phase seemed to peak at a load of 100 ohms but power from three phase peaked at 50 ohms (although this may just be within observational error)
-Power from both seems to be higher at loads with a lower resistance (makes sense). I plan to test loads under 50 ohms next, and also charging current to a 12 volt battery.
-Open circuit voltage is fairly decent, this should allow me to cut in well at low wind speeds(?)

Questions:
-I still have space in the stator between the coils to fit more windings in (as you can see in my previous post). But my open circuit voltage is good enough. Should I add more turns with a thicker gauge wire so that I am adding more to the amps instead of the volts?
-Will adding a second layer of identical magnets underneath the coils give me double the output power?
-Will a second layer of magnets under the coils increase the volts or the amps? (or both?)
-Any other improvements?

Thanks for your help so far guys. This has been fun  :)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 09:54:44 PM by karlbaker »
KarlB.

Flux

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2013, 03:40:59 AM »
If your open circuit voltage is good enough, fill the extra space with the same number turns of thicker wire to get more amps.

Adding a second layer of magnets under the coil will raise the open circuit voltage ( probably nearly double it). If your volts are ok now you will need to wind with fewer turns of thicker wire to keep it the same.

Power depends on how you load it, but any increase in flux will get you more power if you get the optimum load. Battery charging is different from resistive loading so you may have to interpret your test results differently.

If you add another set of magnets you may need something a bit thicker than saw blades for best results.

You have come a long way, keep up the good work.

Flux













































boB

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2013, 03:34:50 AM »
The biggest problem you may encounter with a 3-D printed turbine winding part is that the material will not be high-temp
enough to stay in good shape when the coils get hot.  It may bend or even melt.

BTW, we have a 3D printer and it's great for all sorts of things like this, but for fit testing mainly.

Will be interested to hear how it all works.
boB

karlb

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2013, 11:16:54 AM »
Flux, thanks for your help.
I wound the coils with some extra turns of thicker gauge wire and now I'm up to 11w from 7.
I know that 11w is not much, but;
-I should be able to double this with another set of 8 magnets.
-I am using multiple sheets of very thin steel for the flux return plates, and when I get hold of thicker steel this should help.
-At the moment the coils are not level which limits how close I can get the magnets to them. Clamping all of the coils in between two bits of level wood and encasing them in epoxy should help with this but I need to figure out how to go about doing it.

I have the blades built and will be attaching this to a VAWT over the next few days.
Will let you guys know how it goes.

Bob:
The material I have made it out of is ABS, which melts at 225c.
How hot should I expect the coils to get? and is 225c good enough to not worry about?

I have been thinking about encasing the coils in epoxy but I am not sure how to keep them in exactly the right position whilst I do this. Maybe a 3d printed jig would help but I need to think this over a bit.
KarlB.

karlb

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2013, 04:05:31 PM »
I have now cast the coils in epoxy.
Here is a picture of the jig:

Now the coils are more level and I can get the rotors closer to them resulting in more power.

Here is the blade assembly:
The blades are held in place by 3d printed parts from http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:85168


Here are my results and calculations based on a blade diameter of 1036mm and an estimated anemometer factor of 2.5:

Estimated wind speed (mph)Tip speed (mph)RPMVolts
52520.9
1041042.3
1561553.8
2082076

Until I had the bike speed odometer I had no way of estimating my RPM, and it turns out that the power drill I was using for testing spins at thousands of RPM instead of hundreds. This is why my voltage has turned out much lower than my expectations for realistic wind speeds.
I have ordered another set of magnets so I should be able to double the voltages here once they arrive.
Although this still doesn't turn out great.

Magnets are expensive, and  I have a ton of copper wire lying around from my initial experiments. I also don't want to waste what I have built so far. So I have been thinking of different arrangements based on what I have:



1. is my current arrangement
2. is the arrangement I will make once the magnets arrive, this should be double the voltage
3. I have enough copper left over to make this and I don't have to shell out on more magnets, but would it be better than 2.? if so, how many times more power?
4. Is the arrangement I hope for once I have saved up for more magnets. How many times more power than 1. should this give?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 04:10:13 PM by karlbaker »
KarlB.

electrondady1

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2013, 05:56:54 PM »
hey, good to see you out of the "lab"
go with 2
two is the optimum layout.

 

Flux

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2013, 02:47:29 AM »
Stick with layout 2. If you want to use more magnets just increase the number of poles and coils to make a larger diameter alternator. You get better use of magnets this way. Low speed requires large diameter rotors with lots of poles or very big magnets.

Layout 1 is a good compromise when you are short of magnet and can't run to 2.   Layouts 3 and 4 are only worth considering for high speeds where large rotors may be an issue. Not good use of magnet.

Flux

Bruce S

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2013, 06:04:56 PM »
I'd like to comment on the 3D printing:
NICE!! I'm currently gathering up parts to build one from the posts on instructables.
This profile you made up seems rigid enough, how is the flexing? Would it be possible to stack and offset the blades.
As GoVertical found ; you may also have to adjust your gearing for higher RPMs. Knowing that you are using a 20 gear tooth what is its ratio?
 
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

karlb

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2013, 10:32:23 PM »
Latest update - More magnets! arrived in the mail the other day, so I set to work on making this dual rotor.
I was also able to adjust to get a slightly smaller air gap so the results for single rotor here are slightly higher than my previous post.


I'm getting just over double what I had with single rotor. In particular it seems to have helped out more at the lower rpm than it has at the higher rpm.

Bruce:
Thanks for the comments on the 3d printing. Could you post a link to the instructables page you're following? I too am thinking about setting up a blog to show in more detail about how I made this and other things (some small solar projects of mine).
By the profile do you mean the plastic parts that hold the blades? Yes they are very rigid, so rigid in fact that I only needed to print one and place it in the middle instead of two at either end. Holds up well in high wind. Printing many of them and stacking would definitely go well. Would the offsetting of the blades you mentioned help with start up at low wind speeds? (as it's able to use wind coming from more directions?)

Flux:
Thanks for your help, I'll stick with layout 2.

Electrondady:
What do you mean by "out of the lab"? haha  :)

As it stands I'm running this direct drive. I did not use the 20 tooth gear on the thingiverse page.
Direct drive is not going well for me at the moment. Even after the dual rotor modification. You can see from my tables that I need a wind speed of 25mph just to get to a cut in for charging 12v batteries.
So gearing is a definite must for this to go further. Increasing the number of poles / coils is not an option since I already cast the coils in epoxy (unless anyone knows of a solvent that dissolves epoxy?  :-\ )
As far as I can see, gearing should turn out great. It should allow me to get more power from a small alternator using less magnets and coils. Other than the complication of making the gearing mechanism, what are it's disadvantages?
I'm thinking of going for a ratio of 1:2. Is this a good idea?
KarlB.

electrondady1

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Re: My 3d printed generator
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2013, 09:04:42 AM »
the centre shaft of your alternator  is too slender to take very much torque or bending  moment. (7mm - the depth of the threads)
with a gear or pulley, you can separate the alternator  from all  the big forces involved in the wind mill section.
now you can build a huge mill (relative) and power your alternator.

http://www.usvawt.com/cgi/windpower.cgi

2 to 1   3 to 1
design the transmission system in such a way as to keep your gear ratio options open.


 

« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 10:00:37 AM by electrondady1 »