Author Topic: 15' footer upright and turning  (Read 33793 times)

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kitestrings

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2014, 10:40:32 PM »
Lost that post...and my attempt to edit.  I truly hate touch pads.

The crown nut/cotter pin would normally be a good solution, except in this case the nut is inaccessible.  Originally I was going to do a cut-out to get to the nut, but when I got to it I thought why not just tack the nut (nyloc) to the underside of the washer then thread the bolt -it is a bolt and not all thread - down through the top.  It makes attaching or removing the tail pretty easy.

The tab washers (is that what they're called?) should work.  The inner tab could be bent down to engage in a small hole, preventing it from turning...or, perhaps a roll-pin near the edge.  I was thinking the washers on the front wheels of my first Landcruiser (FJ40) had slotted tabs (three, six?) that were bent up against the flats of the nut.  I do like the idea of not adding any unnecessary loading on the pin bearing.  It needs to stay put, but otherwise doesn't need a lot of torque.

~ks

SparWeb

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2014, 10:43:57 PM »
But... wrenching the nut will just flatten the tab of that washer.  Those washers are for swiches that collar mount, not structural bolts.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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kitestrings

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2014, 11:13:13 PM »
Quote
Those washers are for swiches that collar mount...

Spar, I'm sorry, I don't follow you.  I know they are normally on the nut, but in the case of a wheel mount, the nut is tightened to the bearing washer, backed off and then a tab is bent up to one of the flats.  This application seems pretty much the same.  I may be missing something.  I'm not familiar with the term "swiches".

~ks

SparWeb

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2014, 12:43:30 AM »
It looks like one of these:



The tab washer keeps the switch from turning in its hole.  It's too small.  Maybe they're also made in larger sizes that would fit your bolt.  They're also very soft though...


The other kind of washer, with the fold-up tabs, I've seen them too.  You get a 1001 varieties when googling "tab washer". 


If the nut is buried in a cavity of some sort, then pinning it won't work, as you say.  Can you reverse the bolt, with the head down and the nut at the top?  It won't look right, but could the bolt actually fall out (if the nut comes off despite your efforts to lock it)?
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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Frank S

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2014, 02:03:49 AM »
Actually in the 2 pics i posted I trying to illustrate the shape of the washers more than anything else
 I was looking for a pic of a spindle nut washer but those popped up early.
 Even most keyed washers used against a bearing require a castled nut & cotter pin but if the bolt had a flattened side or better yet 2 flattened sides opposite of each other,  and a washer with the same profile were used it would absorb the transmitted torque.
 A thick Plus a thin washer could be used, the thick against the bearing and the thin between it & the nut The thin one would then be bent over the flats of the nut to hold it
 
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tanner0441

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2014, 10:52:18 AM »
Hi

A version of those tab washers has been used very successfully on marine trailers for years with few problems, also Ford an BL in the UK used them to retain the the bearings on the front wheels. The BL hub nuts were tightened to 150+ ft lbs though they were recommended as one trip, ie replace if disturbed.

The thing to consider the inner tab is under shear across the widest section plus the friction of the nut against hub, the outer tab is under shear and folding forces and if the thickness is correct they have never given cause for concern. I would have no hesitation using them on a turbine.

Under the right circumstances I have seen split pins fail. The best one though is the tapered cotter with a nut on the end. I have also come across split nuts with tabs for a small  cap screw to clamp them tight round the shaft.

Brian

Frank S

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2014, 12:10:01 PM »
if there is enough room for a double nut even if they are only jam nut thickness with a keyed  washer locked between them would be good as well.
 A locking split nut as mentioned would be good.
 
 Another simple solution would be to cross drill the nut and thread it for a set screw at the risk of deforming the threads of the bolt or the need to point drill a dimple in the threads after the nut is adjusted to give the set screw a dimple point to lock on.
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

kitestrings

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2014, 04:12:19 PM »
Ahhh "switches"...it must have been too late.  I clearly didn't register this leap.

Yes, well one thought when I did this was that if the bolt went down through the hinge piece it, nothing would fall apart even if the nut were gone.  I don't think there will be any appreciable torque on it; it could have been a pin connection with cotter pins.

Tanner, I've seen the axle washers that your describing, and the size might be similar (1-1/4").  I believe that's an option, or Frank's idea of one softer, disposable upper washer.

Another thought occurred to me that I could drill and tap a hole through the top plate, and then bolt down one of those little slotted widgets - like a rim clamp only smaller - up against one flat.  I can't think what they are called, but the ones I'm thinking of have an elongated slot for the hole.  Some weather-tight box covers use a special washer that is similar.  Maybe even a hex standoff (I usually just drill out a coupler nut) located so it mates one flat to the bolt head?

~kitestrings

Mary B

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2014, 04:49:02 PM »
drill and tap a hole next to it that will take a large nut with the flats up against the bold head, use a cap screw/washer on top of the nut to hold it down.

Flux

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2014, 04:57:50 PM »
A lot of good ideas but your access may rule some of them out including the split nut.

This seems very lightly stressed so the lock tab or Frank's version with thin washer should be fine. Lock nuts again may be impossible to tighten due to access unless you use different hexagon size.  I think I know what you are getting at with your last idea and that should work if I am on the right track.

Flux

kitestrings

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #76 on: June 21, 2014, 09:36:30 AM »
Quote
drill and tap a hole next to it that will take a large nut with the flats up against the bold head, use a cap screw/washer on top of the nut to hold it down.

Yes, this is what I was thinking.  I was thinking to drill out the threads, but it might be better to leave the threads and jamb lock it down to the plate to help keep from rotating.  Interesting, because in this case the "jambing" would be positioning the nut and then locking with the bolt; just the opposite of what normally happens.

Several good ideas here.  Thanks all.  ~ks

kitestrings

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #77 on: September 15, 2014, 12:32:50 PM »
Small steps (pun intended), we're slowly getting ready to move this thing higher up.  I found a used 45G top, but had had to drill a matching bolt-pattern to our top - of course they we're different, right.

The center hole had to also be cut to receive the 3.5" sched. 40 top section.  That's now done.

I'd also been wanting to make some steps to be able to climb the upper section.  This is what I came up with.  It's 3" AL C-channel.  The steps are 3/4" bolts, with flats, a nut and jamb-nut.  I notched them at the bottom so they would be keyed around the gussets.  I was debating attaching just with small ratchet straps, or these cast-AL things with carriage bolts.  I'm  leaning towards the latter if I can find enough of them.


Gotta run.

Boondocker

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2014, 06:17:45 PM »
KS,

How high are you going with the tower? 

SparWeb

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2014, 10:43:29 PM »
Have you put your weight on them yet?  Hope that's a thick-wall AL channel.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

kitestrings

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #80 on: September 17, 2014, 12:32:04 PM »
Quote
How high are you going with the tower?

100'.  We just took down our long running daily-driver; a Sencenbaugh 12' turbine.  It was on a Rohn 25G.  Our plan is to take the 25G down and put up a beefier 45G on the same footprint, adding one more set of guys and a couple of adapters to transition the loading on the pipe out to the guy points.  Roughly like this:



Quote
Have you put your weight on them yet?  Hope that's a thick-wall AL channel.

Yes.  It is ~3/16" thick and I've got big honkin' flat washers on either side.

kitestrings

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #81 on: September 17, 2014, 12:44:29 PM »
I should probably mention that the tower section on the lower drawing is a bit out of scale.  I 'stretched' 25G section print that I had here.  The dimension across the flats of the 45G is 1'-6"; the pipe is 3.5" schedule 40.

gww

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #82 on: September 17, 2014, 03:16:26 PM »
kitestring
How do you raise and lower your tower?  What is your footing?  I have 9 twenty foot sections of a simular tower. I could get more.  I want to start at about 80' to 100' high and see how it goes before I do another.

I currently have a 80' pole tower up but that was easy except for how much guying it took.  The lattice is so much heavier and I am not sure how to go about it.

I am going to try and get by like burgy does with just two levels of guy wire.
Any advice?
Thanks
gww

kitestrings

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #83 on: September 17, 2014, 03:59:57 PM »
For any of the normal 25G & 45G towers we normally just use the smaller aluminum gin pole (Rohn type) and ropes, tag lines, with a snatch at the bottom...but lifting just by hand and moving the gin up each 10' section.  Three people is good.  We usually use temporary rope guys at 20'; and 20' above anything unsupported.  I've seen 80' towers with only two sets, but I wouldn't go above that - maybe okay if the tower sections are robust, and the turbine is small.

If you get into using any solid leg and/or double-braced sections you need to go to a heavier gin and cable winch (or capstan I suppose), but that would be a pretty hefty turbine in most cases.

The center footing is just a square block down to below expected frost level with a center pin.  Normally the guy footings are roughly ~12" x 24" x maybe 4' long, and positioned perpendicular to the guy.  They have quite a bit of rebar in the front and top sections.  If you google Rohn you can get exact sizes.

In our case, it is all ledge here.  When we built the house I had the well driller drop three more holes about 8-10' deep for the anchors.

~ks

gww

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #84 on: September 17, 2014, 04:41:05 PM »
My tower are definatly not aluminum.  Very heavy.  I will do a search on rohn. 
Thank you
gww

kitestrings

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2014, 08:25:02 PM »
gww,

None of the Rohn towers are AL.  They're steel; hot-dipped galvanized if I wasn't clear. Guys are EHS with preformed grips.

The gin poles are often aluminum to reduce the weight.  And, the removable steps that I showed on the previous page are mounted on aluminum channels.

gww

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2014, 09:43:33 PM »
You were probly clear and I need to pay more attention.
Thanks for the update.
gww

gww

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Re: 15' footer upright and turning
« Reply #87 on: September 20, 2014, 09:19:26 PM »
Wish I had an aluminum gen pole.  I just lowered my 80' pole today.  It took hours.  My gen pole is 4" inside metal pole and is heavy.  Wish I had a front loader tractor.
Cheers
gww