Author Topic: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project  (Read 73563 times)

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SparWeb

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #216 on: October 03, 2017, 08:24:26 PM »
Damon, I ain't greedy.  I'm jealous!

Skid, c'mon give'er! 
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

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MattM

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #217 on: October 05, 2017, 04:55:16 AM »
So when trenching that rocky soil do you use an air tool to dislodge the soil then loosen the rocks and hand move each one?

I'm curious because it likely is not just a simple task to trench in that location.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #218 on: October 05, 2017, 09:58:54 PM »
So when trenching that rocky soil do you use an air tool to dislodge the soil then loosen the rocks and hand move each one?

I'm curious because it likely is not just a simple task to trench in that location.

I used a trenching machine to get close to the river bank as my soil is very sandy loam. Once I got within  30 feet or so of the river it became extremely rocky. I'm started digging the final section now and it is very tough going because of the rocks. I'm using a pick, a trenching shovel, and a 5 foot steel pry bar. It's quite a work out as some of the rocks are really wedged in there and weigh upwards of 300 pounds. If my buddy showed up with his little excavator I'd let him do it...

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #219 on: October 06, 2017, 09:13:06 PM »
Here ya go Sparweb!

Another short video of me lowering the waterwheel into the water with a few different angles as well. I've created a Youtube channel for this.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPfjoAQxvcQ

I'll create a few more videos as I get everything commissioned and tested.

Fordguy64

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #220 on: October 06, 2017, 09:17:49 PM »
THAT is so sexy...  8)

hiker

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #221 on: October 07, 2017, 10:15:11 AM »
How's the tork on that..perhaps a bigger pully on the wheel..any readings yet ( volts ) ? Looks great.
WILD in ALASKA

keithturtle

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #222 on: October 07, 2017, 08:16:56 PM »
Mr Davids is a killjoy with his comments.  Great to see you've completed this phase; now on the the next

Turtle
soli deo gloria

SparWeb

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #223 on: October 07, 2017, 09:31:01 PM »
Yeah, NEVER read the comments on Youtube.
The comments here are enough!

Thanks for letting us see the "dry run"...  so to speak...

Of course, you're tossing around words like "commissioned" so you must be some kind of eggineer who takes his time to do it right and all. 
Looking forward to a proper immersion of the blades in the water and getting the true measure of the machine.  Happy to see it going so well so far.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

Mary B

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #224 on: October 07, 2017, 09:34:09 PM »
That thing is awesome! One of th emost ambitious projects here since the guy who designed and built his own oil bath chain drive gear case.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #225 on: October 17, 2017, 12:18:14 PM »
Did some testing today. Making between 600-900 watts inverter output as the digital meter on the inverter is bouncing around a bit. The flows in the river are just slightly above the yearly lows according to the gov't river gauges so this is likely slightly above the minimum outputs I can expect to achieve.

I've got the wheel as low as it goes into the river. The water level is about 3/4 up the blade outside sidewalls currently.

I may have to adjust the ram pins so it can lower the wheel even further as the more submerged it is the more power it makes so far.

The forecast is for rain so the river level and flow speed should increase. We'll see where it goes...

george65

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #226 on: October 17, 2017, 03:35:25 PM »

What will allow the wheel to generate the target 5Kw? Is it the height of the river or the speed?  From the vid it's hard to imagine the thing flowing even 3 times faster as from where I am, that's a pretty fast flowing river already!

There are always the armchair critics on YT. You can bet the less they have actually got off their useless arses and done themselves, the more critical and full of it they are. Like the seagull on your vid that wants to $#|+ on everything, when called out they get all indignant and claim the moral high ground.
 Wait till you start getting all the infernal and moronic "safety" comments.  The pet carry on of those that have no clue about the subject of the vid but want to say something anyway ( even if 20 other morons have said it before) and make themselves look important by parroting what they have seen other useless twits carry on with elsewhere.

Wish it would rain here. Haven't seen anything other than a heavy dew in at least 4 months.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #227 on: October 17, 2017, 08:57:00 PM »
George, the river can really get moving. Right now it is quite slow compared to when it gets higher. For every foot per second increase the power goes up dramatically so it doesn't have to flow 3 times as fast. 10-30% faster doubles/triples/quadruples the output (proportional to the stream velocity raised to the fifth power if that makes any sense to you).

What I find interesting is that the wheel likes to be submerged. I'll experiment with this, but need to drill a new hole for the hydraulic ram pin so I can push the wheel further into the water.

Depending on how things go I can also increase the blade size and width. I can extend the blades another two feet in diameter and another foot wider as I left room for that in the design. I just didn't know what to expect.

 Considering that low flows like I am getting currently are typical for 4-5 months of the year (See attached river chart) I may opt to increase blade size/diameter as aluminum plate is relatively inexpensive and my time is free. We'll see how things develop...




george65

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #228 on: October 17, 2017, 10:13:08 PM »
10-30% faster doubles/triples/quadruples the output (proportional to the stream velocity raised to the fifth power if that makes any sense to you).

Very interesting, I couldn't imagine it flowing proportionally faster as in 2-5X but 10-30% is a whole different thing that makes a lot of difference apparently.

Quote

Depending on how things go I can also increase the blade size and width. I can extend the blades another two feet in diameter and another foot wider as I left room for that in the design. I just didn't know what to expect.

I was wondering about width but thought that would give torque which you would have to change the gearing of the wheel to take advantage of.
If the flow you are seeing is going to be the average for 5 months of the year, would seem the time to swap cogs may  would be a little time well spent.
That's a LOT of work/ investment you have made for 900W, 22Kwh day.
I made 23 Kwh yesterday with my $1500 worth of inverters and solar panels, half of which are still lying flat on the grass as I haven't got them on the roof yet and the others are leaning against a makeshift frame of scaffold. 

You deserve a lot better returns than 900W after all the time, effort and cost that has gone into this project.  A little tweaking may go a long way.

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #229 on: October 17, 2017, 11:20:01 PM »
Back in post 141 I mentioned that I should have went solar :'(

I also mentioned I hope to average 2kw over a year which should be doable based upon the outputs at low flows.

I'll find that out soon as the rainy season is starting for the next couple of months.

I'll see how things go and experiment with the wheel depth a bit. If I can average 2kw year-round I'll be where I expected to be.
 


george65

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #230 on: October 18, 2017, 01:34:48 AM »

Bah!!

Any Muppet can have solar, but to have what you do, that's REALLY cool and unique! I would really love to have a hydro setup but in practicability, I can't see that I ever will.

Seems the real hard work is done now and with just a little tweaking/ tuning, your wheel should be able to provide power well beyond your goal.  Now you get to do the fun part and see what really works for the thing and have some interesting learning experiences.
I'll bet a few little tweaks and improvements now will make a lot of difference to your output.

Certainly one of the best DIY projects I have ever seen!

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #231 on: November 08, 2017, 11:26:03 PM »
I've been operating for a month or so now and have a few observations. So far we have had a very dry fall and in the last week temperatures have dropped below freezing for a few days which is unusual for this time of year. River flows have continued to drop.

Freezing - The water wheel doesn't like it. After a few days I had a huge buildup of ice on it, enough that it built up in the vee grooves of the water wheel pulley and caused one belt to fall off. The wheel itself got so heavy the hydraulics strained to lift it out of the water. Going forward, if the temp drops below freezing for any length of time I will pull the wheel out of the water.

Efficiency - I can see a few ways in which I can improve the efficiency of the wheel. The first thing I will do is close in the inner diameter of the blades. Water is flowing through the blades and out the middle of the water wheel which is definitely hurting the efficiency. If I close it in with some sheet aluminum I can see efficiency improving. Either that or increase the length of the blades towards the middle and increase the sidewalls. I have a couple other things I can do as well to make more power.

Wheel elevation in the water - I adjusted the ram so I could push the wheel lower into the water. Max power is made with water well up the side of the wheel rim. About 3/4 of the way up seems to be the best.

Power level - Flows should pick up in a few days as heavy rain is being forecasted. So far my max has been 875W according to my inverter, but flows have been really low for this time of the year, now dropping to less than 20CMS (cubic meters per second). Hopefully we'll get sustained flows in the 100-200CMS range which really speeds up the flow.

MattM

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #232 on: November 09, 2017, 05:28:05 AM »
So by closing in the spaces you're going for more of an undershot wheel?

Do waterwheels ever use skirts - like a tent over the wheel down to water level - to keep ice from freezing the wheel.  It would seem if the ice was kept out of the wheel, and ice could safely attach around the skirt in a controlled manner, then you could generate during freezing conditions.  I wouldn't want the skirt attached to the wheel itself for obvious reasons.  I was thinking more like a floating dock situation..  By doing this you eliminate the pucker factor when you wake up some morning and realize your weather changed on you.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 05:40:53 AM by MattM »

SparWeb

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #233 on: November 09, 2017, 01:29:04 PM »
At first, I was thinking the same thing as Matt.  But then I started wondering about how the ice forms over the water and some problems became apparent.  Ice tends to grow from shore toward the middle, so it will reach out from your bank toward the wheel.  The churning action around the wheel will prevent ice from forming on the water's surface, but it will adhere to the sides and buckets of the waterwheel.  It will grow a rime over all of the surfaces that get splashed, making it heavier.  I don't see weight as a problem on your humungous beam, but the pivot point will be more stressed now.

Putting anything into the water upstream of the wheel, like a dock or a pier, will slow the water down and could also offer another spot for ice to get a purchase and grow on the surface.

Does your river usually freeze over in the winter?
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #234 on: November 09, 2017, 10:21:40 PM »
The river doesn't freeze. The issue was the air was below freezing, and the parts of the wheel that don't contact the water dropped below the freezing point. Any water dripping from the buckets hit the freezing metal and froze to it.

The parts affected were the axle, the struts, the big pulley, and the arms that support the wheel. I had icicles 3 feet long hanging off the arms. The axle had ice 3 inches thick around it. I had to scrape the ice out of the pulley grooves to get the belt back on.

It doesn't normally drop below freezing here for any long lengths of time so I'll just lift it out of the water until warmer weather arrives.

SparWeb

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #235 on: November 09, 2017, 11:12:19 PM »
You sure ain't in Alberta, then.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #236 on: November 26, 2017, 04:49:08 PM »
Spar Web,

Nope not Alberta, coastal BC. Still quite warm here today.

Welp, bad news. I've been hearing some funny sounds out of the wheel for the last few weeks. Saw the wheel shuddering a bit, thought belts were slipping so tightened them up along with everything else that had a bolt or nut on it. Sound persisted until a couple days ago when it was really screeching.

Pulled the wheel out of the water and pulled the outboard bearing cap - Full of water. Pulled the inboard cap - Bearing cage hanging out the side and the outer race blue.

I noticed that the wheel wasn't centered on the fork as well. The outboard bearing controls axial thrust. Put a pry bar on the wheel and found I could move the wheel back and forth axially on the bearings.

Since the bearing seals sit on the shaft and rotate against the housings it appears that when the wheel was thrusting back and forth axially the seals were losing contact with the bearing housings, then admitting water.

The Thrust retainer was obviously not tight enough despite me hammering it up with a punch and then locking the retaining nut.

I've ordered new bearings and will make darn sure I get my largest ball peen hammer and hammer the crap out of the thrust retaining nut so it can't move once I replace the bearings.

Right now the river is really flowing and I could make some good kilowatts too. Hopefully this was the cause of the oscillating power levels seen on my inverter.


SparWeb

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #237 on: November 26, 2017, 06:19:10 PM »
Aw ain't that just they way it always breaks: when it's really flowing the problems show up.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #238 on: November 29, 2017, 11:17:19 PM »
Took everything apart today. I pulled the wheel off the frame and brought it to my shop for ease of working on it and to keep out of the rain as much as possible. Tractor could just barely lift it.

Had to use a couple of large pullers to get the large pulley and then the bearings off the axle. Everything was on tight!

Looks like water got into the bearings before it even got into the water. It sat for almost two years and judging by the rust marks rusted for almost that long. Now I know why people use wood or UHMW plain bearings as they are immune to water.

I cleaned everything up, scraped off all the rust and used a wire wheel to polish everything. I installed the new bearings being sure to really pack them with grease. Last time I put in the bearing company's recommended amount of grease. Because this is a very low speed application, this time I packed in as much grease as possible. And then hit it some more with the grease gun when it was assembled.

Tomorrow I'll bring the wheel back down to the river and hopefully get it up and running again.

SparWeb

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #239 on: November 30, 2017, 12:21:32 PM »
I hope so too
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024

skid

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #240 on: December 01, 2017, 10:14:16 PM »
Got the wheel back up running today. Nice and quiet now.

I made sure to grease everything really well and made sure the bearing seals were contacting the housings properly. Hopefully no more water issues. I should plan on splash shields for the bearings, and a small roof for over the generator to try to keep it dry too.

I do notice that the generator output isn't jumping around as much as before. This indicates to me that the bearings were damaged right from the get go before, as output was jumping around greater than 300W at a time when I first put it in the water. Now it's steady within 100W.

River flows are down now again, but when they come up I hope to start generating some KW's. I maxed out at ~1500W before but that was with the wheel shuddering as the bearing was locking up. Crap, at the time I thought the belts were slipping and tightened them up more then which sped up the demise of the bearing...

MattM

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #241 on: December 02, 2017, 01:20:39 PM »
Could torque from the waterflow be twisting on the bearing, creating excessive side loads?

SparWeb

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Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
« Reply #242 on: December 02, 2017, 03:55:03 PM »
Good to hear.
And you've backed off the belt tension, too, I guess?
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it.  Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.

System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, regulated by Xantrex C40, DIY 8ft diameter wind turbine, regulated by Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024