Author Topic: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"  (Read 13616 times)

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kitestrings

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Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« on: January 11, 2015, 03:26:58 PM »
The latest Home Power issue just arrived.  This letter in "ask the experts, renewable energy Q& A" caught my attention:

http://www.homepower.com/articles/wind-power/design-installation/ask-experts-wind-hard

I probably would take issue if it wasn't so painfully accurate.  The only point I could think that he missed is the fact that often small wind is, or has been, installed or "sold" on sites with little or no wind.  This of course does nothing to advance the "industry."

PV prices have pretty steadily fallen for the last 5-years or more.  In our state there is an additional Solar Energy Credit ($.024/kWh) for net metered systems using solar, and home scale systems are comparatively streamlined.

The perspective is a bit different for off-grid, and for that, wind does compliment PV very nicely.  It's not without challenge though.  You pretty much gotta be crazy.  A friend recently joshed that "I/we lived in a bubble", but "it's nice in here", I responded.

~ks

clockmanFRA

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2015, 05:07:39 AM »
And about time KS.
I mean the article.

 Here in France I have clashed a bit with the so called Eco publications regards the truth of domestic energy production, especially as most publications have serious commercial advertising interests.

We have 3 wind turbines, 12 footers Hugh Piggott designs and 8kW of PV solar panels.

In the last 3 years, I am constantly advising folk to sit down and seriously think about all the hassle involved with a Domestic (up to 4kW) Wind Turbine, (yes there are exceptions),  "Yes" I say, "if you want to get practical and spend some time fully understanding the machine, fair enough".

I now give the figures of making a 1kW machine, My 3.7m, 12 footer Hugh Piggott design, material costs only all in, tower etc,  are about $2000, where 1kW Solar PV on a ground mounted static array is about $1400 for all materials and Good quality PV panels at $1.03 per watt.

And Even better for the latest PV panels, I am using Mono, in Ambient light/ murky days, I am still getting 10% of the panels rated output. So we are getting 800w constantly. I have also taken a deliberate policy of connecting the panels together, using their VOC voltage, up to the maximum possible the MPPT controller will take.

However, Now that AC Coupling has come of age, so to speak, I am now using the SMA Sunny Island 6kw inverter, (Yes I actually spent some money and bought something new, aagghh), that runs from my 1300ah 48v Battery's, to create a Mini Grid.
 
I now direct feed into this new Mini Grid with normal, second hand Grid Tied PV inverters SMA Sunny boys. The Sunny Boys need their internal software switching over to off Grid settings and then the Sunny Island, if getting more power than required, can raise the Hertz Frequency slightly and the PV Sunny Boys throttle back accordingly.

The good thing about this new Mini Grid system is that standard Grid tied inverters can be used, especially second hand cheap SMA Sunny Boys. All transmission cables can be smaller, and the Sunny Island 6 can take 11kW running on this new Mini Grid.

Personally, I think AC coupling is going to be a great step forward for us as we expand our small community as each building is connected in.
 
   
 

 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 05:13:20 AM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

DamonHD

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2015, 05:21:19 AM »
You're describing exactly where I want to go with my 4 SunnyBoys!  B^>

Rgds

Damon

PS. How does one switch them to 'off-grid' settings and is it likely to conflict with the G83/1 grid-tie rules (I'm guessing that one gives a gradual drop off in output with frequency and the other one abrupt and sooner)?
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clockmanFRA

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2015, 09:03:35 AM »
Hi Damon.

Yes its clever stuff.

Victron Inverter/chargers are also going down the AC Coupling route, but their max power capacity is the same as the Inverter, ie 6kW is 6kW, where SMA Sunny Island 6kW allows 11kW.

For off grid mode you will need to enter the Sunny Boy by the Sunny explorer software, (free to download), I do this with Bluetooth add on PCB onto the Sunny Boy Main PCB. But You will require the Unlock access code, which is easy to do, see the SMA Australia Videos, or contact SMA for the unlock code. (I also have the code here, but will keep it to myself as I would not want to upset SMA).

Then follow the instructions. Once Off Grid Mode is initiated the Sunny boy alters all other parameters as required. see  http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-en-41W.pdf   

Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

clockmanFRA

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2015, 09:19:28 AM »
This Image is more clear......
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

gww

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2015, 09:24:18 AM »
Clockman
Thanks for posting, do the turbine provide any power and you do mean the pv is better, don't you?

Mostly thanks for the ac couple stuff.
gww

clockmanFRA

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2015, 01:45:07 PM »
Hi 'gww', Yes the Turbines produce the power as Hugh Piggotts production/power charts, as I have a decent site that nearly always blows from the South West.

But kW for kW the PV wins hands down on material costs, power production, ease of maintenance, few moving parts, and ease of manufacture, although obviously I do not make the PV panels.

AC Coupling, it has taken me a good year and a half getting my head around/understand the AC Coupling concepts.

Here is a Video link that SMA have done regarding the Sunny Island, its a little out of date and does not talk about the practicalities and actual bits, nor the new features, so I have relied on off grid pioneer folk here in Europe to guide me along.
But very importantly the new Sunny Island has a lot more features that have brought AC Coupling to folk like us. It is now very simple, easy to install and maintain, and by using second hand, used, Grid tied Sunny Boys, it very cost effective, and even better its expandable by paralleling up more Sunny Islands in the future.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dc7LqkLpgQ 
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

gww

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2015, 02:12:15 PM »
My site is not so good, I have one 9' and one 8' and 1 40' and one 80' tower.  I don't believe mine are meeting the production predictions but have seen them survive some dramatic winds.  I am kind of a scrounge and put them up fairly cheeply.  My pv was .94 cents per watt delivered.  I have found the same, pv on good days make lots more per watt and per dollor. both pv and wind have bad days but lots more bad days with wind.  I have enjoyed it anyway.
gww

gww

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2015, 02:21:54 PM »
As an off note.  I wonder how a high voltage wind turbine would work hooked to a sunny boy grid tie inverter in an ac couple situation.

I am guessing that it is for solar and wind would stall the minute it hit the voltage required by the inverter.

Thanks
gww

clockmanFRA

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2015, 02:27:12 PM »
Don't get me wrong 'gww' I do love my wind turbines, and as a moving mechanical creators of energy, I think Hugh Piggott's design has really created the ultimate simple machine that ticks all the right boxes.

However, my own observations on my material costs give PV the edge, and even my wife remarks at the little time I spend with our PV, "You put it up, it works even on dull days, and you let it be". 
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

clockmanFRA

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2015, 02:36:08 PM »
I know a guy in Scotland that is running his Grid tied proven wind turbine by a Windy Boy Grid Tied Inverter, (it's a used/second hand unit) AC Coupled to the Sunny Island's Mini Grid.
 
If the batteries are fully charged, and power consumption is minimal on the AC Coupling Mini Grid, the Sunny Island can Load Shed the power from the proven wind turbine to heaters etc. Very similar to my dump loads on my present 48v battery system.

My Turbines PMG are wound for my 48v system, but if I do build another one day, then I will wind the PMG for Grid tie, as per Hugh's tables.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

gww

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2015, 02:40:33 PM »
I agree with the solar and that is my advice every time wind is metioned by some one new.  I do however have three turbines and could easily take two of them apart and salvage the magnets and build a 14'.  I already have a pretty robust 80' tower and I have another 190' of a heavy lattice type tower that is not set up.  I think even with all that solar is better but I still get urges to use this other stuff.
Thanks
gww

gww

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2015, 02:49:31 PM »
My system is also 48 volts as are the two turbines I am actually flying.  5600 watts solar outback inverters.  I do know that outback could be ac coupled.  Also when you go with something like the classic clipper cc it cost as much as the used grid tie inverter.  I do know the classic is programable to the turbine.  One thing about the ac couple is you could put the inverter at the aray.  I could add maby 2000 watts to max out my current charge controllers and have no real money or incentive to do that but I like thinking about my options incase I ever see a deal I just can't pass up.  It is only a deal if it works though.
gww

clockmanFRA

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2015, 03:15:40 PM »
I think its the cost effectiveness of the used/second hand Grid tied Inverters here that has tipped the balance for us.

Grid tied PV Installations are all over the UK, mostly on frames on folks houses roofs, they get a Government subsidy, but if they enlarge their system then the old /used inverters can not be used with Grid tie again. So they appear on web sites and the like at low low prices.
And as Off Grid folk that do not have AC Coupling can not use them then there is a limited amount of buyers, ie me.    yippee.

Like $200 for a SMA Sunny Boy 3800. or even this new, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sma-sunny-boy-inverter-3-8kw-/161524393288?pt=UK_Gadgets&hash=item259b9aa548 

Same with the rest of Europe, there are some cracking bargains to be had. SSSHH don't tell any one......
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

gww

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2015, 03:52:52 PM »
Here is the other thing, I spent $2000 to trench some big heavy wire two hundred feet from my aray to my charge controllers.  I haven't figured the volt drop and what it means to a gritie inverter but have to believe a $200 used inverter is better then 2 $500 dollar cc and $2000 worth of wire.
gww

kitestrings

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2015, 01:46:02 PM »
clockmanFRA,

So I assume you are grid-tied.  I'm not sure I'd realized that previously.  I can see where AC coupling allows one the convenience of the grid-tie with the independence of an off-grid system.  In a prolonged outage this would certainly have appeal.  Do you have frequent and/or sustained outages?  Otherwise, aside from the economies of the equipment that you've described - and those are significant - is there a way that you are leveraging lower utility rates, say by shifting away from expensive periods (TOU, peak-pricing structures perhaps), or by using the thermal benefit of otherwise lost power with a heat pump or some sort of diversion?  I guess otherwise, I'm wondering why adding more main-stream GT wouldn't be just as practical.

Regarding wind.  At the Coop here, we have about 550 net metered systems.  Of those, probably 25-35 are wind.  Of those, I could probably count on one hand those that have truly descent sites, and/or high enough towers.  A handful have done really well on production.  The residential/farm commercial systems are mostly Berger 10 kW's.  Quite expensive last I looked.  I can't remember that last time I saw a new system go in.

Quote
Don't get me wrong 'gww' I do love my wind turbines,

Me too.  Despite the challenges, they're much more fun to watch; work on.  ~ks


clockmanFRA

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2015, 03:39:18 PM »
Hi KS,

No, we are not Grid tied, unless we jump through some very expensive regulated hoops.

We do however have the main utility EDF Grid, where we only use the cheap night tariff and this is used as, and if it were a standby generator. We have Change over switches on the main Power boards.

And here's the funny thing, we are not allowed by the French Authorities to direct connect the Sunny Island Charger/inverter to the main utility Grid on its Generator AC Input side, even though with the Sunny Island you can regulate AC feedback to the main Utility Grid to a Zero Export if you so wish. However the Sunny Island is approved for Grid tied connection in Germany and the UK.

Yes, we have constant outages here, about 40 to 60 per year,  from just a few minutes to days.

Standard rate utility electricity is expensive here as nearly 2/3rds of a standard bill are just taxes. Yes its bad, so I allow a costing of about $0.40 per kWh when using main Utility supply.

With our own S/H batteries, own made 9.5kW of energy creation stuff, we can actually beat that tariff and payback for our $15,000 material costs investments in a relatively acceptable short period.

Our community here consists of 9 individual buildings, with 6 houses to passive house standards with 3 of these Gites (holiday accommodation House), eventually, a lecture theatre, my workshops, etc. So hence having our own Mini Grid system, with each building having its own roof mounted PV, eventually.

This is one of those projects that gently plods along, as we do not have that much spare cash but we want things done properly. Err mostly just me, as I send Mrs CM out to work, she has all the PHD's MBA's etc and can earn more than me!

Taken me nearly 2 years to get courage to spend some money on the New Inverter as at present our 3.7kW is a APC UPS (s/h $200) but our power requirements are getting bigger.
 So the Sunny Island ticked the right boxes, with its 6kW and 11kW AC Coupling Mini Grid, and its ability to talk to the PV Grid Tied Sunny Boys as slaves is a big leap forward, and even more importantly, as I have said before, the system is easily expandable with out excessive costs.

 
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

DamonHD

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2015, 03:42:33 PM »
I think that I am thoroughly envious!

Rgds

Damon
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clockmanFRA

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2015, 03:48:00 PM »
What's that Damon, me sending the Wife out to work?. he he.
 ;D
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

gww

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2015, 04:08:42 PM »
Quote
What's that Damon, me sending the Wife out to work?. he he.

Now I'm jelous!
gww

DamonHD

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2015, 04:56:13 PM »
My other half *does* go out to work already and it's not the first time that her stable income is very very valuable, but all the rest too!

Rgds

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DanB

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2015, 08:30:48 AM »
I have to disagree to some degree... as much as I love and agree with Ian most of the time.   Hate this statement 'for all but the very few with unlimited time and resources—wind is a no-go. That should tell people capable of looking past the glamour to pass by wind energy.'.

Plenty of folks in our community have small home built wind systems that were inexpensive and incredibly reliable...  They require often times a few hours of maintenance per year (sometimes no maintenance at all).  It's damned nice with an off grid power system to wake up to batteries that are better off than when you went to bed.  In the winter when the sun doesn't shine it's nice to have income.

Small wind shines so long as it's in the right application, and it doesn't have to be big... or expensive or tricky.  It requires a decent resource and the proper owner (and no the owner does not need unlimited time and resources).
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

gww

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2015, 09:15:31 AM »
Dan
I live in a zone 2 wind area and an 80 foot tower is a big project.  For my area wind is idiotic compared to solar.  My biggest day is 6000 watts in a 24 hour period but more like whole months of nothing.  I wish you would quit posting your new projects. Now I want to build a 24' turbine.  I would say it is more likely that solar works better for and is a better monitary decision for the majority of the poeple, there are always exceptions to the rule.  It is so exilarating watching solar produce power, not.  I really want to built a bigger turbine.  I love seeing your projects, I love when the giant wind goes through, that my turbine furls and survives (I have experiance that have went the other way)  What I have found is with wind you sometimes do quite a bit of expermenting before you get on the correct path and this is not nearly as bad with solar.   I wish I would have followed yours and hughs plans first rather then trying microwaves, ceiling fans and motors first.  Then even wind in my area would be a better deal.
Keep letting others know about your projects, please.
gww

kitestrings

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2015, 12:49:13 PM »
Quote
It's damned nice with an off grid power system to wake up to batteries that are better off than when you went to bed.

I agree.  Immense satisfaction there, and were it not for the wind at least in our local, we'd just be trading one utility for another (LPG for kWh in our case) in the winter period.  Still even if someone comes up with a more affordable dependable turbine in the 3-6 kW scale, which is sorely needed, for grid-tie I think the slide will continue to shift in the favor of PV.  Night day, snow, no snow, doesn't much matter with net metering and the ability to store credits for up to 12-mos. (rolling) in our state.

I also agree with gww, it's great to have you contributing regularly again.  Hope you can.

Quote
No, we are not Grid tied, unless we jump through some very expensive regulated hoops.

We do however have the main utility EDF Grid

This is a bit foreign to US utility structure.  Here you either 1) grid-tied - though some states have deregulated or "unbundled" certain costs- you basically are served by one, franchised poles and wires company, 2) off-grid, or 3) grid-tied with AC Coupling.  Can you explain the EDF arrangement that you have a bit?

~ks


clockmanFRA

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2015, 04:09:18 PM »
Hi KS, re your questions......

"This is a bit foreign to US utility structure.  Here you either 1) grid-tied - though some states have deregulated or "unbundled" certain costs- you basically are served by one, franchised poles and wires company, 2) off-grid, or 3) grid-tied with AC Coupling.  Can you explain the EDF arrangement that you have a bit?"

France has several regimes with what you can do with the main electricity supplier, here its EDF, a government run monopoly.

When PV on roofs became main stream and supported by the European Union, France EDF would pay you a flat rate per year for Exporting your PV or Wind etc to the main utilities Grid. They would also pay you for every kw of power you produced/exported. However over the last 4 years or so, the rates for exporting your Electricity are now so low that as an investment/return basis the figures do not add up anymore on new installs. And before you ask, New Installs here in France are still, yes still, very very expensive compared to say the UK.

Plus all the connection charges and inspection charges, and that all the connected equipment must be certified and be approved by EDF, and installed by appropriately EDF approved installers. So Installing any domestic Grid tied exporting energy creation makes no financial sense any more.
And any PV on Domestic house's roofs must be installed into the roof and not above the roof, and checked to see that it is.

You can still connect to the main utility grid with grid tied equipment, and this is called "Self auto consumption" and if you back feed or export then no monies are due, you get nothing.
But again the Paper work is pretty horrendous and certification etc charges are still expensive. Equipment needs EDF/French approval, and unfortunately the SMA Sunny Island is not approved, and so can not be connected direct to the gird in any manner.

As I said earlier, I have installed changeover switches on our main fuse boxes, so our own Sunny Island created Mini Grid is separate and independent of the Main utilities Grid incoming supply.

So as I join more PV etc to our own independent Mini Grid, by Ac Coupling to our Mini Grid, our reliance on the main Utilities grid EDF becomes less and less.

As I also said earlier the Utilities company, EDF charge nearly 50% of our consumption bills in local and state taxes, loads of distribution charges, and rental of the EDF equipment.
 
We now mostly just use the EDF cheap night tariff as a sort of standby generator, as it still cheaper than a good generator and its fuel costs, but just as oil costs fall. If Fuel costs keep on falling I will need to reavaluate this part of the equation.

This arrangement is now cost effective for us, as most of our gear is second hand used stuff, just wisely chosen.

We therefore hope that in about 4 years we will separate totally from the main utilities Grid, EDF.

The concept of self generation and self consumption is openly discussed on the European Navitron Sustainability Forum and the figures nearly add up as a normal domestic arrangement, but what is holding everything back is Battery technologies and the present battery prices.

I know folk use to say that the main Grid utilities supplier was supplying electricity at a fair price for the Country/Nation. Sorry that does not wash here in Europe anymore as I think Governments just see another Tax source and the Utilities in France and the UK just want to make loads of money for themselves.
Nothing wrong with that I here you say, well there is when there so called prices that they are charging are now more expensive than my own Sustainably produced Electricity.

EErrr Rant over.
Trust this helps KS. 




« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 04:16:34 PM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

gww

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2015, 06:05:31 PM »
My opinion is even in the us poco is a monopoly,  the company that serves you is the company that serves the area.  Its just like taxes and they ask a government intity if they can raise rates and I don't think they are told no all that often.  It doesn't matter if their dam breaks and they cost millions of dollars in damage, the cost will be passed on.  If they decide to spend millions on public relations the cost will be passed on and if they give good political donations, yes you guessed it the cost will be passed on.  By the way did I mention their prices are controlled by a government entitie?

I guess my rant is done.   I don't know a better way to do it but still if puts a person in a position of subtatude.
gww

electrondady1

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Re: Wind" for the faint of heart"
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2015, 07:50:04 PM »
but for those that are a bit faint of heart or those that  live in an urban environment you could  putter around with a vertical axis mill.
 you can have the fun of making a bit of electricity
 and your neighbors need not live in fear.

lifer

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2015, 02:32:18 AM »
That's exactly my storry. I've decided to live offgrid (having some problems with the grid operator too) and I was relying on solar.

Unfortunately, I had to discover the PV lack of efficiency in foggy/cloudy weather. And that's the local forecast for the next week and the current one. Now I'm relying on my gas generator only and I wonder how "green" is that?

Solar is a winner in a grid tied world only. The actual PV technologies don't make you confident that "after every night there comes a day" anymore. I will live in "darkness" for two weeks now.

Hopefully, I'll manage to finish the charge controller for my VAWT in few days so I'll become "green" again.

oztules

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2015, 05:03:56 AM »
Clockman has the same sort of thing I now have.
For me windmills are a thing of the past, and while I love/d my 4 meter beauties, and live in the roaring forties, there is no comparison to off grid living with a decently sized solar system compared to a hybrid system..... none zip zero.

Decent mills cost money. Over here the best mill has been the AWP ( not mine), as the winds are huge and unforgiving..... but strangely most nights are fairly quiet.... by night fall the daily wind seems to abate to a breeze.... there are still some weeks where the wind is  full blown day and night in winter too for weeks on end....

It is true that fog, dark skies and heavy rain reduce the solar outputs to around 10% of rated, but they are extremely cheap.

I  bought 10kw for $5200 CEC approved ( and built over 4kw home brew... not used for this but solar water pumping)....... You can't build a proper windmill for that money that will work even reasonably once the infrastructure is added in.

10kw gives us 1kw continuous in even the worst days here... when the sun shines, you have power to burn... and I mean burn.

I ditched the solar hot water and put in a regular hot water unit... uses 4kwh/day... the solar electric system does not even notice it.

I awake every day with the batteries at about 87%-90%, and I KNOW they will be fully charged by days end, and the HW fully charged. On a sunny sort of day, this happens at about 9.30am or well before... the rest of the day I waste 80kwh or more... and I don't care in the least. I have not seen the specific gravity at night-fall  being less than 1.265 yet.... and we just had five dark days in a row..... same thing. A short period of lighter sky ( still raining) will push a huge boost onto the bank in a very short time.

The HW is timer set for 10am-4pm. It is usually done by 11.30am.

I use some s/hand grid ties using galvanic isolation for the AC coupling. It can charge the batteries as well backwards through the H bridge fets.. I normally only use 1x1.8kw for this ( I have 10 others I bought for $40 each to play with as well) Out of curiosity  I have pushed 4.5kw backwards through the inverter from the grid ties ( reconfigured the panels and used a few more units) just to see how much i could do in this regard.

The windmills have been decommissioned. I miss them as ornaments, but not for power... they are second rate devices for the money... (and I have seen 5kw out of them at times)

The ac coupling of the grid tie to the ac output of the inverter means the main inverter does not provide power during the day, the grid tie runs the house and charges the batteries except for the time when the HW draws it's 2.5kw for a few hours, and it supplies anywhere from 150w to 1800 watts to the 2.5kw hot water  load  or if it is 8/8 cloud cover.

I run a home brew charge controller, power jack LF inverter heavily modified, with home wound torroid transformers (near 90 lbs) for >10kw runs and 30kw or more surge for 12 seconds. It can run the microwave (1000w), HW (2500w), electric jug (2400w) and the rest of the house all at the same time with plenty to spare.

I have only 35kwh battery bank, but don't need more as it is full every day.... even if it rains heavily all day, and rarely contribute during the day ( low clouds and HW on)

So with night usage of 5kwh, a mill is of no use here......... BUT.... Chris Olsen has convinced me that there are places where mills are needed... in this county it is not the case ( Aust).

Unless you live in exceptional weather places, mills are a very expensive alternative now.... and i have a few more KW of panels I can switch in if I needed to....


.................oztules

Note the power jack has done over 4MWH in the last run since I turned it off for mods to install the grid tie shut down controller I built into it.... cost me $600 to make... solar of $6000 and grid ties 60-70 dollars ( and 10 as low as $40... I needed the 3kw torroid steel out of them  ). Battery bank of $5000 for t105RE. Transformer has never gone over 55C and power fet heatsinks not above 50C....... usually both  <38C... a bit over $10000 the lot.

It is the same as being on grid, with 60" tv, 1000ltr freezer, twin door fridge, ice maker, cold water cooler and anything else the  boss dreams up... a normal power jack will NOT do that if thats what you are thinking... but the electronics in it will with a few changes, and bigger transformers and box....

The boss will not  skimp on anything....nor should she with solar so darn cheap.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 05:15:44 AM by oztules »
Flinders Island Australia

lifer

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2015, 05:37:36 AM »
Yeah, maybe you're right.. the sun just came up from nowhere (the forecast was clouddy for today) and it started pumping full power into the batteries.

I must admit I didn't spend so much money with my VAWT (so no worth crying). I guess I'm going to double the PV power (and batteries) for "like a boss" living.

And maybe I'm going to build some kinetic art devices for my yard decoration (to remember those times when I was in love with the wind).

gww

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2015, 10:47:26 AM »
Ozz
After reading your post I know I am still an idiot.  I spent yesterday reading hughs wind turbine recipe book.  I only got it out to look up the magnet rotor size and the lbs of wire a 14' turbine would take.  I have a simular size battery bank to what you have but my use must be lots more cause it will be at 50% over night if it didn't disconnect due to my lvd.  I have 5600 watts solar and could add about 2000 watts more without buying any more equiptment except building racking.  My two turbines have made a grand total of 14 kwh so far this month.  What the hell am I thinking.  My solar does not do as well as yours as  far as overcast skys are concerned.  we went through the worst month I have ever seen and many days I did not produce more then 2 kwh per day.  If I had to relie on my battery I would have to increase its size by 4. 

The wind did not make up the differance, so why do I wan't to build a bigger one?

I need the solar but can't make myself buy it even though I need no other equipt.  But yet I got the urge to built a 14' turbine.  Whos the doctor, somebody needs to give me a pill that stops these crazy urges I get.

Gww

kitestrings

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2015, 02:45:09 PM »
Every now and then, when I get to feeling like wind is totally crazy...I see a post from eletrondaddy1, or lifer, or... who're still trying to make VAWTs work despite all the nay-say'ers  and it cheers me right up ;).  I guess misery loves company.

We're about 20 miles from Canadian border; and lot's of snow and cloud cover.  November & December are downright lousy.  The average annual insolation is about 3-3.5 hours/year.  Still the PV does remarkable well from roughly late February thru even October.  The spring and winter winds are very good, so it works out pretty well.

Oz, I enjoyed reading (and re-reading) what you're up to.  Would love to see a one line of this system.  Sounds like your pushing the envelope on AC Coupling along with a handful of other folks here.  Very interesting.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 02:50:28 PM by kitestrings »

oztules

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Re: Wind - "Not for the faint of heart"
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2015, 04:25:23 PM »
You'll find some info here.... http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,902.90.html

..............oztules
Flinders Island Australia