Author Topic: F&P Setup  (Read 15165 times)

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gblass

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F&P Setup
« on: May 14, 2015, 06:56:20 PM »
Hi All

I'm at a point were my head is spinning and need a little help.

About 5 years ago I purchased an F&P Model 60 with a 48 magnet hub and mount from Randy's workshop. I also have the Windy Nation 35" wind grabber blades and the 3 blade hub. I currently have 5kw of solar that is grid tied. My plan is to use a grid tie inverter that will take 3 phase AC input from 22-60 volts AC. Here's the link http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EB4YKZ2/ref=cm_sw_su_dp   My hope is this will make up for my reduced solar output in the winter. During the fall and winter months I get winds in the 15-30 mph range.

Here is were I need help.

What RPM should I expect to get from these blades on the F&P ?

How many watts should I plan for when getting the inverter ?

With this wide voltage range what would be the best wiring configuration ?

Would I be able to use the F&P without rewiring it ?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm a machinist and electrical is just not my thing.

George
Connecticut
5kw Grid Tied Solar.  1kw Solar with batteries and Midnite Solar charge controller. 600W Skymax Wind Turbine on 30FT tower.  80 gal Solar Water Heater.

stofanel

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2015, 11:11:25 AM »
Low solidity turbine blades make their power at TSR's of 6-8. This means that at wind speeds between 15mph and 35mph you should expect between 420RPM and 1300RPM. Keep in mind, however, that the upper limit assumes a tip speed of 280mph, which is not achievable with this kind of blade.

As an educated guesstimate, I would peg these blades somewhere between 400-800RPM.

Assuming that you are actually expecting 35mph winds, here is the power breakdown for the turbine:

at 15mph, the theoretical Betz limit is 267W
at 35mph, the theoretical Betz limits is 3000W

Now, given the nature of the blades (the lack of an actual airfoil), I would expect that the power coefficient of such turbines to be somewhere around 0.10-0.15. This puts your power output somewhere between 75W and 500W at the wind ranges you specified.

I don't know much about washing machine motors, but from what I saw in the pictures, the winding is way too thin to carry any sizable current. However, at 60V you only need to produce 8A, so you'll probably be fine. Since the generator will produce AC current, you'll need to run the output through  a bridge rectifier.
 
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 11:15:42 AM by stofanel »

gblass

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2015, 03:28:02 PM »
stofanel

Thanks so much for the reply, your answers will be a big help.  I am planning on using a 1000w grid tie inverter that takes 3 phase AC so based on your numbers I think I'm in the ballpark with the inverter.  As far as the blades go I will probably start with the ones I have to get a baseline of the output.  From looking around online I didn't find any larger blades so it looks like to go larger I would have to make my own.  Do you have any suggestions on a better set of blades. 

Again thank you so much for the help it is very much appreciated.


George
5kw Grid Tied Solar.  1kw Solar with batteries and Midnite Solar charge controller. 600W Skymax Wind Turbine on 30FT tower.  80 gal Solar Water Heater.

stofanel

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2015, 05:27:02 PM »
I am in the process of making my own blades as we speak. As a matter of fact, I am discussing the very same topic here:

http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,148690.0.html

However, even if you get more powerful blades, your alternator may not be able to keep up. Looking at Randy's test data here

http://www.watchtv.net/~rburmeister/testdata.htm

I  can see that your F&P seems only capable of 200W. The wiring in the coils seems really thin (22 ga?) which can carry no more than 8-10A at most. Even with the increased RPM and voltage, you are looking at 500W max out of that generator. A bigger set of blades may burn it out.

oztules

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2015, 05:06:00 PM »
It is a little more complicated than first blush.

Matching blades to an alternator means just that matching... but all alternator designs are different..

In the case of the F&p... no matter what blades you put on  them, they will NOT burn up, or even get excessively hot.. short circuited for days at a time ..It is not possible.

It is pointless to ponder betz limits and think that even in a perfect world, your blades can deliver it...the problem becomes how the alternator  itself will load them at those rpm... can it load the torque you envisage at those rpm . It is beyond complicated.

In the F&P case, it will be how you fiddle with the windings that will give you your max output.

It is a composite of how many coils can be paralleled to get some copper cross section into the picture, and just when you calculate that you have done very well, the inductive reactance and leakage from long salient pole alternators will put an upper limit on your output.

If you calculate on the 200-500 watt mark, you will be in the ball park. At that point or thereabouts it will current limit, no matter how fast you spin it, it will just run away at 3 or 400 watts etc wiring design dependent.

You can use capacitors to ameliorate the reactance to some extent, and if you really get technical with them I have seen folks get 1kw out of a single stator... but that was complicated with voltage doubling and tripling and a big cap bank.

So alternators... particularly those with not much magnet, and lots of steel involved with the magnetic paths, will self current limit, those with strong magnets and air paths are very much less influenced by back MMF problems, and tend to burn up instead if over powered.

In short, you can maybe get it up to 500w if you rewire carefully, 300 more typical, but you will not burn it up... ( and 1kw if you really know your stuff).

matching blades to an alternator is not just wind speed and blade design with a calculator... the humble alternator will also dictate what works well, and what does not.

Also, some older  F&P cog unless you decog them... if you don't then you will need wide chords to start them in light winds.

Your best information will come from   http://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/Contents.asp#3     It is dedicated to these things

...............oztules
Flinders Island Australia

gblass

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2015, 08:47:26 PM »
oztules

Thanks so much for the info, it's going to be a big help.  I have a 36 pole stator and plan to wire it 6 coils in series.  I plan to grid tie it with this inverter  http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EB4YKZ2/ref=cm_sw_su_dp    It will take 3 phase AC input from 22-60 volt.  The inverter is MPPT so I'm not sure how that will load the F&P.  I guess the best thing to do is get it up in the air and see what I get.

Again thanks for the reply.

George
5kw Grid Tied Solar.  1kw Solar with batteries and Midnite Solar charge controller. 600W Skymax Wind Turbine on 30FT tower.  80 gal Solar Water Heater.

oztules

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2015, 10:33:37 PM »
Gee George... this is a no win situation.

Your used to seeing what 5kw of solar can do... you will be hugely hugely disappointed at what wind stuff will do.

Your best course of action is to throw the thing away and buy a 250 watt panel for 200 bucks or less, and add that to your array... because when you find out just how little power you will get in the KWH range from an F&P.... you will sober up right away. If you can get  1kwh per day, you will have done well....however, if you insist...

The f&p is really a high voltage animal, when you parallel the windings, you get down to the lower voltages, but remember, this thing will run away in higher winds, as the back MMF and the MMF come to a  neutral understanding at your max current point... then the forcing voltage will rise dramatically as the extra power from the baldes has nowhere to go except for more rpm...no more power just more revs... so your forcing EMF rises, and if your inverter tracks MPPT by lifting the load for a fraction of a second to see the voltage point of the panel or mill, it will possibly fry the input.

To get the best out of an f&p, you may do a lot better using transformers, so that the f&p can run at lower amperage, and so lesson the amp turns. We do this on a African wind power unit over here, and that allows it to get to 2kw or so instead of much much lower.... ie the low voltage version is less than 1kw from memory.... but... and there is always a but, you need to have a switching system in place to let the mill get up to speed before you load it..... always something.

At least there is a known max output of the F&P due to the reactance, and that will protect your inverter from over power...not sure about the voltage though.

All in all, not a worthwhile project for my money, but a safer way would be to rectify it, drive a small battery bank, and run the grid tie from that if it supports battery inputs.... some have internal current regulation, some apparently do not... and would try to use the entire current output of the battery all at once, but that would at least give you a reliable input voltage, and protect the inverter from what wind can really do if it tries..... but then you will need to protect from over discharging.... always something.

My best advice...... don't do it... your current solar system on a shocking day will blow the doors of the mill.

If you want to see something spinning in the wind... then go for it, but thats the only thing that would encourage me to try it.  I have never heard of a small mill doing a worthwhile job into grid tie... solar just kills it. Your 5kw grid tie will probably do more in 1/2 of an hour than the mill will do all day in good conditions.

In winter on a very dull day, the grid array will probably still beat the f&p hands down.... even if it is windy all day.

On the backshed site, a fellow called Philm ( I think it was) spent a lot of time and money doing a grid tie with a F&P... after all the work and red tape, I don't think he ever got more than 1kwh/day....and those were the good days.... he was an expert with these things, and had dual and tripple stator units too.

Try and find that story ( he also did caps as well to get more power out of it.)... might make for sobering reading

.........oztules
« Last Edit: May 16, 2015, 10:39:56 PM by oztules »
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gblass

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2015, 03:29:51 PM »
Hi Oztules

First let me say I totally agree with everything you said.  Bang for your buck these days it's hard to beat solar.  If I didn't already have all the parts to assemble this turbine I would probably go a different route or invest in more panels.  Now truth be told I'm a machinery nut.  I like old steam engines and anything mechanical.  My primary tractor for my property is a 1939 Ford 9N that my wife affectionately refers to as Maryellen.  So half the reason for perusing wind is like you said seeing something up in the air spinning.  Another reason that got me thinking about wind was we get a lot of snow in Connecticut and it's not uncommon for the panels to be covered up for weeks at a time in the winter.  Finally I live at the peak of a ridge line with nothing around me to block the wind.  I know people always overestimate the  amount of wind they have but many nights I lay in bed and if feels like the house is going to get blown off the foundation.  So that's what got me headed down this road.  I figure it will be a fun / learning project and I might actually make up for some of my reduced solar output during the winter.

My ultimate goal is to go completely off grid and to do that I plan on investing in more solar panels.

Thanks for all your help !!!

George 
5kw Grid Tied Solar.  1kw Solar with batteries and Midnite Solar charge controller. 600W Skymax Wind Turbine on 30FT tower.  80 gal Solar Water Heater.

oztules

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2015, 03:48:24 PM »
Understand completely George.. I live at 40 degrees south.. in the roaring forties.... wind we got!... gobs of the stuff...the trees grow at an angle here...

The F&P is a good choice for set and forget in a windy environment, as it won't ever burn out if you can hold it together mechanically.

If you use some capacitors it will make a fair difference to it's output. The backshed a has a long post called visual effects of capacitors or similar... it is long and has a lot of stuff in there regarding caps and their effects on the long salient pole F&P..... it really needs them to make power


Best of luck with it.

If it shows promise, then perhaps an induction motor conversion will suit your purposes better in the future..... more power, and just as idiot proof in strong wind environs... Suggest reading  Sparwebs stuff, and Zubbly stuff.


..............oztules


Flinders Island Australia

midwoud1

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2015, 04:09:17 PM »

  Hi George,
  If you have that much wind ,and you like mechanical engineering, and electronics.  Think about an Active Pitchcontrolled windgenerator.

  Rgds.  Frans.


   http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,145925.0.html

ruddycrazy

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2015, 01:34:10 AM »
Hi George,
                 Once you get the F&P rewired to suit the voltage you need, get hold of 6 off 400 volt 470uf electro capacitors then solder them in series to make them non polarized. Then just put each pair in series with the 3 phase output of the F&P and you should get close to 30% increase. Now I will say the trials I did way back was using a 100 series wired in delta and I never used or had a 60 series. No need to worry about circuits just stick caps in series and test the output. Then take them out and test, the uf may need tweaking but only testing will prove that.

Regards Bryan

DamonHD

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2015, 03:06:45 AM »
Bryan, to be clear, do you mean wire the caps in series back to back ie - to - , or + to + , to make a non-polarised cap?

Rgds

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Flux

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2015, 03:51:22 AM »
Yes I am sure he means  2 capacitors back to back to make an equivalent non polarised one.

You then have the equivalent of a non polarised capacitor in series with each phase.

The F & P  has a high leakage reactance and will go into current limit at fairly low speed. The idea of the capacitors is to form a series resonant circuit so that as the speed increases the reactance is neutralized, at resonance the thing determining the output current is the winding resistance, so the output will now continue to rise as in an axial pma.

If you get the resonance point right you can get much nearer to the ideal load characteristic to match the blades but it will take some experiments to find the correct capacitance.

This trick works on the F& P because of the large number of poles and high operating frequency. In theory it would improve a motor conversion but with low pole counts the capacitor values become crazy.

It may be the case that you can get a bit more with shunt capacitors across the phases as well, as this will bring the armature reaction magnetising rather than demagnetising and increase the gap flux a bit. The ultimate restriction on output is winding resistance, but you will not get near that limit in normal operation without capacitors as the reactance will dominate.

Flux

ruddycrazy

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2015, 06:07:55 AM »
Yes to be clear I do mean soldering the caps back to back which will 1/2 the uf value and make them non polarized. The whole story behind the caps came from where a mate in town was playing with caps and had them in parallel. When I got home I had a play with those 470uf caps and was blown away by the current increase by putting them in series. A mate came around and saw the results and the rest is history.

gblass

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2015, 07:18:33 AM »
Thanks for the tip guys.  So when I hook up the caps in series I take the line from the turbine and hook it to the the positive terminal of the 1st cap, then I put a jumper between the negative on the 1st cap and positive of the 2nd cap, then the negative of the 2nd cap would be my output.  Is that correct ?

Thanks
George
5kw Grid Tied Solar.  1kw Solar with batteries and Midnite Solar charge controller. 600W Skymax Wind Turbine on 30FT tower.  80 gal Solar Water Heater.

gblass

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2015, 07:33:27 AM »
I forgot to ask, I'm planning on running the AC from the turbine to a grid tie inverter so should I put the caps up on the turbine or right before the inverter.

Thanks
George
5kw Grid Tied Solar.  1kw Solar with batteries and Midnite Solar charge controller. 600W Skymax Wind Turbine on 30FT tower.  80 gal Solar Water Heater.

Flux

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2015, 09:42:14 AM »
The capacitors work best on a direct battery charging scheme where the load is confined to a fixed voltage.

If your grid tie inverter is of the type where you can program in a curve you should not need the capacitors.

If it is a battery linked inverter you will be in the same situation as direct charging and will benefit from the capacitors, but from your comment I don't think your inverter is battery linked. I hope this is a grid tie inverter designed for wind use, a solar grid tie will not tolerate a wind turbine input.

Flux

kitestrings

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2015, 09:55:53 AM »
There is a member who frequents this board named Rob Beckers.  He has done quite a bit with grid-tied wind using the Aurora inverters.  I believe these inverters allow a user programmed power curve for wind as Flux described.  Anyway, Rob's a nice and knowledgeable sort.  I think his business name is Solacity and he is in Ontario, CA.

~ks

gblass

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2015, 12:41:25 PM »
Flux this is the inverter and it is listed for wind.  It will also take 3 phase AC input.  This should be a big savings being able to run ac down the pole,  the savings in cable alone  will almost pay for the inverter.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EB4YKZ2/ref=cm_sw_su_dp

George
5kw Grid Tied Solar.  1kw Solar with batteries and Midnite Solar charge controller. 600W Skymax Wind Turbine on 30FT tower.  80 gal Solar Water Heater.

Mary B

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2015, 05:04:46 PM »
No UL listing... and those cheap inverters are fires waiting to happen!

gblass

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2015, 10:17:33 PM »
Mary B
I saw that too and plan on mounting it in a metal box away from flammable surfaces.
Thanks
George
5kw Grid Tied Solar.  1kw Solar with batteries and Midnite Solar charge controller. 600W Skymax Wind Turbine on 30FT tower.  80 gal Solar Water Heater.

TDC

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2015, 11:26:27 PM »
Others on this forum are far more knowledgeable, but i believe the lack of UL listing makes them illegal in the US and dangerous..... they have been known to continue outputting power even when when the grid is down,  a lineman is working on a line he THINKS is dead but the cheap grid-tie is putting power on the line.....  an electrocution hazard.

kitestrings

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2015, 11:51:26 AM »
George,

I'd recommend that you save your money.  There is more junk on the market than you can shake a stick at...this will be a disappointment.  You might re-read Oz's earlier posts.

If you are serious about using the F &P alternator you might do well to spend some time researching what others have done on Glenn's site (backshed).  You might also consider just charging a batteries, and offsetting some modest/reasonable task with the output.  Home-built, F& P and grid-tie all have unique challenges.  Grid-tie without UL listing, IEEE anti-islanding may even put you in a no-tie (or illegal) situation with your utility.  Putting them all in one basket adds an exponential level of complexity (IMO).

~ks

Mary B

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2015, 04:52:06 PM »
Not UL listed means illegal to use in the USA, plus if it starts a fire good luck, your insurance company will tell you to take a hike.

Mary B
I saw that too and plan on mounting it in a metal box away from flammable surfaces.
Thanks
George

gblass

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2015, 08:25:19 PM »
I did a quick search and it looks like they are UL listed  but I wont know for sure until I get it .

Since some of you expressed concern about fire I think I'll just mount the inverter at the base of the tower and run the AC output from the inverter the 20 feet or so to the house.

As for the F&P I already own it and all the hardware to get it up in the air.  It's going to be more of an experiment to see if it's worth investing in a bigger better built unit.

Thanks everyone !!!

George in Connecticut
5kw Grid Tied Solar.  1kw Solar with batteries and Midnite Solar charge controller. 600W Skymax Wind Turbine on 30FT tower.  80 gal Solar Water Heater.

DamonHD

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2015, 02:42:12 AM »
It's not *just* fire.

As said before if it doesn't handling islanding correctly in case of a grid fault and kills a linesman you'll have several people on your case beyond the insurers.

Rgds

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Mary B

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2015, 06:33:15 PM »
Exactly Damon! They are unsafe for any use on grid. If you want to risk off grid you only have yourself and family to injure...

gblass

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2015, 01:17:59 PM »
Just to be clear I'm not looking to do anything to harm anyone. I assume when something is UL listed there should not be any problems with them. Also with my utility company I am listed as a producer and have a main disconnect outside my house. if anyone is working on the lines in my area they would come to my house and disconnect my house from the grid.  But seeing as many of you do not think these units are safe do you have an alternative that I could use.  The other option I considered was a 24 volt dc system with a sub panel and moving the lighting circuits over to it.

Thanks
George
5kw Grid Tied Solar.  1kw Solar with batteries and Midnite Solar charge controller. 600W Skymax Wind Turbine on 30FT tower.  80 gal Solar Water Heater.

DamonHD

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2015, 02:11:53 PM »
Do you really think that in the event of a line problem the linespeople go and manually disconnect every site that *might* backfeed incorrectly?  And then reconnect manually afterwards?

Rgds

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dnix71

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2015, 07:53:55 PM »
In south Florida after a major storm, people will break out gensets and some will try to connect to their house panel directly. Lineman here listen and look for that if they are working an area. Solar is silent, though and not always obvious. That's why there are UL and NEC standards and the power company wants to oversee the install and have final say about what can backfeed and what can't.

Grid-tie isn't worth it in many cases. The grid was designed to be a one-way street, just like the internet was.

Mary B

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2015, 08:23:53 PM »
It is a safety matter to us, many are buying these junk grid tie inverters with no UL listing and just plugging them into an outlet...

joestue

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2015, 08:30:49 PM »
I've always wondered how it is possible for anything to backfeed the grid.

The case where your transformer blows its fuse is a pretty obvious exception, that's pretty rare but still a non zero risk.
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Bruce S

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Re: F&P Setup
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2015, 10:01:10 AM »
Just to be clear I'm not looking to do anything to harm anyone. I assume when something is UL listed there should not be any problems with them. Also with my utility company I am listed as a producer and have a main disconnect outside my house. if anyone is working on the lines in my area they would come to my house and disconnect my house from the grid.  But seeing as many of you do not think these units are safe do you have an alternative that I could use.  The other option I considered was a 24 volt dc system with a sub panel and moving the lighting circuits over to it.

Thanks
George

gblass;
 It may seem as many here are harping at you about those inverters.
The main reason (I'm sure you figured this out) is safety for you and others.
IF you've already ordered one of those inverters, one of the things you could do is ASK your electric company about that specific inverter, IF it has a UL label, take pictures of it, and do some checking around "just to make sure"

IF that inverter is truly UL listed it will be new to most all here as there has been quite a lot of reviews which includes pics of units catching fire inside the inverter :(. Those reviews even show up on Amazon, who seems hell bent to sell them.

What ever you go with stay safe.
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