Author Topic: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.  (Read 66009 times)

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clockmanFRA

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The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« on: March 16, 2016, 04:36:33 AM »
I will start a new Topic.

Those of you that have been following oztules wonderfull creations, may have noticed that the weak link for this OzInverter is the PCB Boards.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with the 15kW Power Jack Boards, they do the job excellently!

The problem is getting them. Power Jack obviously get them in/made somewhere, but as I have put a book together, sort of 'Open source' concept, its embarrassing to find folk can not get them.

So with 'oztules' help I think I can move the Boards forward so folk can make or get them made.

I am at this moment putting some 10kW -15kW power boards together.

They are based on the W7 Powerstar schematics and the PJ boards.
Layout will be similar to the PJ 10kW - 15kW power board but modified, double sided, but the heat sinks may be different size or a stock size readily available, certainly not smaller.

Steep learning curve on making the main board, at 278mm/ 11inch long by 172mm/ 7inch wide, (just fits on a page of A4, that's handy).

I last did PCBs in the late 1980's, and Interestingly the manufacturing process for PCB's, 30 odd years later doesn't seem to have changed much..... :' (  Except the CNC milling machine approach. I thought about that, then remembered at this large size the blank boards tend to distort easily, so back to the photo etch process.   :'(

These boards are large and I looked at getting some prototypes done/ outsourced, but the costs are silly, hundreds of $.
Also I note everyone wants Gerber files, and yet I scan in my present boards, alter accordingly on the PC, then the prototype folk say, "can only cope with Gerber files".  :'(

I think the only thing I have left from the 1980's is a vertical etch tank, with aerator and heater, and some copper etch crystals. So best get busy getting everything else.
 
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

Bruce S

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2016, 09:21:44 AM »
ClockmanFRA
What type files are you normally using. With all of today's open-source stuff, there's probably a way to transfer from one to the other.
I used to use Eagle format for PCBs
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oztules

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2016, 05:04:49 PM »
Remember, the gate resistors drop down to 5R6, and have a signal diode across them ( anode facing gate ) for the 8010 version.... big difference in heat.

................oztules
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clockmanFRA

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2016, 06:30:35 AM »
Hi ozules, okay got it.....

The new Control card, I am in your hands on that one, with the New 8010 chip/processor changes the arrangement I was planning.

So if I understand this correctly each of the 47r resistors at each gate, 24off, needs changing for a 5r6 0.6w metal film resistor. ?

And a signal diode, say IN4148 parallel to the 5r6 resistor with the anode facing the gate. ?

Here are the one piece Power Board, circa 2013, from Power Jack. This is the simple board I would like to update and make for our use?

The 0.6w metal film resistors at each FET are 47r and 20K. The exception is those 2off 2w 47r metal film resistors on each side row of FET's.

The only difference I could find between the Old PJ board and the New, circa 2015, board is obviously the 4 sub/daughter boards, but on those the resistors are still 47r and 20k, and the extra signal diode and the 24k and 22k with capacitor, but no 2w 47r resistors.

Both the new and the old PJ board has the small ferrite bead? 4mm long x 3.5mm dia x 1.5mm hole, on the centre leg of the FET, do we still need them?.

Thanks
 
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

clockmanFRA

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2016, 06:49:46 AM »
Oztules, the old board had IRFB4310 FET's, (approx 18Meg) I would like to fit IRFB4110. is that Okay?

And the Old one piece PJ Power Board we hope to modify and re-build...........

Layouts for reference.......
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 06:53:54 AM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

clockmanFRA

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2016, 07:00:02 AM »
Hi Bruce,

I am a clean sheet, I have NO PCB production software whatsoever any more, what I did have in the 80s was share wear etc, just won't run on my PC any more. Suggestions?

I would like to just amend and modify that old PJ Power Board and have it re-made, so I would like to keep things simple.

I just have a vast amount of jobs/work I need to do here.......
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

Bruce S

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2016, 11:36:07 AM »
Eagle AFAIK is still free for the lite version. Pretty good though it has it's limits.
I took a quick look at their site and manufacturer's can even use it to create gerber files.

Hope that helps
Bruce S
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DamonHD

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2016, 11:55:28 AM »
We use Eagle for small boards.  Max is (IIRC) 2 layers and about 8x10cm, for non-commercial work.

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oztules

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2016, 04:51:40 PM »
Yes, 47r replaced by 5r6, and diode in parallel with the 5r6 anode to gate... this for the egs002 setup.

The small board ...........I am currently is redesign mode to get rid of the propriety 002 board, and just use available chips.... through hole and plug in replaceable.....true self fixing in remote area design is what I'm aiming for.... rather than where folks are now frightened of their inverters. The 002 does this already, but I want to be beholden to no one.... I want chips only, no foreign boards. Plug in processor, drivers and we are good to go.

I note the internet problem in France, and will put a story on the little 002 inverter here on fieldlines when time permits, so you continental folk can see it more readily.

results so far on the test one are uber impressive... I just can't get it to blow up any more... ever since I took to it with a  razor an hacked off the 393.

It has been running the house for a few days now, nothing bothers it, and we drive it hard............ bit like Chris Olsen does, sees 8kw spurts regularly, periods of hours at a time of 3kw and every where in between....... 14-16kwh/day at the moment........ very impressed with it... and thats with a substandard transformer... really only wound for testing at 1-3kw. There must be clipping somewhere in there, but I have not seen it when scoping it....

Flinders Island Australia

clockmanFRA

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2016, 05:39:50 PM »
Thanks.

Yes, oztules, I have ordered some 8010 chips plus those holders, in anticipation......

Bruce, Damon, I looked at that software, sadly the board I am making is a big board, and to spend $600 on bigger boards production is just not cost effective.

I looked up Thermal Image and heat transfer on to the copper boards. It looks promising. But the printer must be a Laser toner image that can be heat treated using a laminator onto the PCB board and the paper peeled away leaving a mask image on the copper. Sounds good but will practise.

Crikey Laser mono printers have come down in price these days.! New about $60 for a branded make. And as I will have to add a few insert pages, the new laser printer can also do that. Pages will be erratum and direct scale PCB masks, for these boards. Folk can then photocopy at their laser printer copy shop onto the special heat transfer film/paper and etch their own boards..
 
This Power Board fits neatly on to a sheet of A4, so at this moment I have started using my CAD, I use it all the time and it has symbols, and is very very accurate and I am used to it.

There will be 3 mask for each side, here I am starting the Holes drill mask, just about to put the FET holes in.
 
whoops just noticed mistake, wrong year...... Its late evening here......
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 05:47:59 PM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

frackers

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2016, 07:23:48 PM »
I looked up Thermal Image and heat transfer on to the copper boards. It looks promising. But the printer must be a Laser toner image that can be heat treated using a laminator onto the PCB board and the paper peeled away leaving a mask image on the copper. Sounds good but will practise.

Crikey Laser mono printers have come down in price these days.! New about $60 for a branded make. And as I will have to add a few insert pages, the new laser printer can also do that. Pages will be erratum and direct scale PCB masks, for these boards. Folk can then photocopy at their laser printer copy shop onto the special heat transfer film/paper and etch their own boards..

A few tips...
  • Use inkjet matt colour printing paper, not more than 100g weight - check that the matt coating doesn't melt at laser fuser roller temperature
  • Make sure the copper is really clean, iron on the laser printed image with the iron at 150-180C (you want 'hisss' not 'HISSS' temperature!!)
  • Don't press too hard otherwise you'll squeeze the ink out sideways
  • Allow to cool and then soak in tepid warm water with a bit of washing-up liquid in it
  • The coating on the paper should separate from the fibres of the paper and stop furry edges and become fused into the thermal laser ink
  • Clean off after etching with xylene (Hammerite thinners) or similar

Its a few years since I've used this method but I may have to go back to it as I no longer work at the place where we had prototype pcb etch facilities!

Robin Down Under (Or Are You Up Over)

oztules

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2016, 07:46:21 PM »
well for completeness, here are the component o/lay and pattern I ran for this experiment. I have made it as dead simple as absolutely possible... was just a test anyway, but it works as well as a top range inverter.... who would have believed it could be so simple??... it just works.

Day three running house.. no sign of glitch or stress no matter the load or complexity of the loads.

9605-0

9606-1

So put this layout into  an image program, and resize until the 17 pins are exactly .1 inch apart... and print it out and etch it. I use a bubble jet printer... seems more reliable with black without fade areas.
I use normal A4 paper, kinsten pre sensitized boards, and olive oil ( or anything oil I have handy... even crc....) and a desk fluoro to 25 -30 mins

Print out the pattern on the A4 letter paper, place it on the kinsten board, add oil... goes transparent to UV light.... and 25 mins under the flouro at 2-3  inches or there abouts distance from pattern to light globe

I  use NaOh for developing... carefully.... the I use CuSO4 and HCL for etchant...... the farmers use the CuSO4 ( in 25kg bags)  for copper in their dams and fertiliser etc etc, and the HCl is available everywhere as brick and concrete etchant...1-25 liters containers., this is an island remember...

Yes the pattern could be improved immeasurably.... but for a quick test.... it worked well beyond my wildest dreams.

More info here: http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1116.0.html

Will do a story for this site for the French folks too maybe....

..............oztules

« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 07:53:51 PM by oztules »
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Phred

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2016, 03:01:20 AM »
My preference for a home brew board is to stay clear of smd's. Clockman it is a bit hard to workout a circuit diagram from just the photo's without having a PJ as a sample. Correct me if wrong. IS the main board basically a buss bar with the big caps and the daughter boards just hold the heat sink mos fets plus some resistors mini cap diode? A sketch of one leg would be great.
Futurlec can make pcbs in Thailand if there need for enough boards it may be worthwhile to do a run.

oztules

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2016, 03:16:25 AM »
Yes make the 20k through hole.
Flinders Island Australia

clockmanFRA

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2016, 03:43:18 AM »
Hi Frackers,

Thanks very much for those tips on the thermal image on to copper.

I was going to use Mrs laminator machine, but perhaps not! Now where did she put that Iron......

Hows your hard core Ozinverter coming along? For those of you that don't know his endeavours, he wound his own silicone iron cores, now that's dedication.........

Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

clockmanFRA

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2016, 04:00:01 AM »
well for completeness, here are the component o/lay and pattern I ran for this experiment. I have made it as dead simple as absolutely possible... was just a test anyway, but it works as well as a top range inverter.... who would have believed it could be so simple??... it just works.

Day three running house.. no sign of glitch or stress no matter the load or complexity of the loads.

So put this layout into  an image program, and resize until the 17 pins are exactly .1 inch apart... and print it out and etch it. I use a bubble jet printer... seems more reliable with black without fade areas.
I use normal A4 paper, kinsten pre sensitized boards, and olive oil ( or anything oil I have handy... even crc....) and a desk fluoro to 25 -30 mins

Print out the pattern on the A4 letter paper, place it on the kinsten board, add oil... goes transparent to UV light.... and 25 mins under the flouro at 2-3  inches or there abouts distance from pattern to light globe

I  use NaOh for developing... carefully.... the I use CuSO4 and HCL for etchant...... the farmers use the CuSO4 ( in 25kg bags)  for copper in their dams and fertiliser etc etc, and the HCl is available everywhere as brick and concrete etchant...1-25 liters containers., this is an island remember...

Yes the pattern could be improved immeasurably.... but for a quick test.... it worked well beyond my wildest dreams.

More info here: http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1116.0.html

Will do a story for this site for the French folks too maybe....

..............oztules


That's excellent oztules, nice layout, so you have a working Control card with that egs002 card with that 8010 chip.
I do love robustness and simplicity.


The small board ...........I am currently is redesign mode to get rid of the propriety 002 board, and just use available chips.... through hole and plug in replaceable.....true self fixing in remote area design is what I'm aiming for.... rather than where folks are now frightened of their inverters. The 002 does this already, but I want to be beholden to no one.... I want chips only, no foreign boards. Plug in processor, drivers and we are good to go.

.

Here here!,.......... or whatever means, I totally agree with you 'oztules'. And I say and repeat again, 'Thanks very much for your openness with your endeavours' its very refreshing.


Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

clockmanFRA

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2016, 04:55:17 AM »
Phred,

If you look through 'oztules'  60,000 odd words, you will see the W7 Powerstar Schematic, the PJ Power board is based on that. However, as you have already seen for the 'New 8010 OzControl Board' we need to change from 47r to a 5r6 resistor on all 24 fet's and parallel a signal diode, as the 8010 is a different purring beast to the PJ Control Board.

The Power board I am putting together is based on the PJ layout, as its robust, simple and okay for cooling installation. But there are several improvements I will make.

Obvoiusly, ....no SMD stuff to the board. .........I love through hole board components as they are good to work with as a DIY job. Soldering will have to be good. Where tracks go through the board I will use pins and solder each side. But fortunately there are not to many small tracks that require this.

I note that the PJ board has solder collars in most big holes to ensure good connections with some of the big connections, ie, 6mm hole for the 6 negative cables to the battery, FET legs etc. So if a connection is required on both sides with the component passing through then I will investigate further and amend.

My Mrs reckons I always over engineer, but with this Power Board it needs to be right?

Okay, As some of you will be aware, I have recently published a small A4 size, 76 PP, 151 colour photographs & 14 diagrams Booklett. "Making a Low cost, simple and robust 6kW, 50HZ Pure Sine Wave, 48vdc to 230vac, INVERTER."  Its all in there, except these new Boards, which I will ad in as a pull out  suplement with the first run of just 100copies.
 
Why did I do it, as there is no financial gain in these type of books.

1................ Up the Nose of the greedy ignorant Big Boys, especially SMA, its a long story!...

2............... With 'oztules' can do and will do direction, it is real and possible.

3............... Its 'Open source' type of publication. Like a famous Wind Turbine Man's publications, but remember I am just an apprentice constantly learning.

4............... Personal empowerment and self-improvement is very much our Philosophy here in Normandy, especially with real hands on cost effective renewable energy creation. Hopefully, I can pass on my experiences to other interested folk and importantly the next generation, especially my boys.

So in a few weeks time, when the bits come from across the globe, I will get the Mrs to put that extra page on our Web site for buying the book with everything in it, and the components lists & masks for making your own PCB's.

There is very little out there about the actual making stuff, and I like to believe that this small publication will inspire folk around the Globe to take another step.
I believe this is the first time that a Large, 6kW, 48vdc to 230vac, Pure sine wave 50HZ, Inverter has been manufactured and open sourced in this way.

However 'Phred', These forums have everything discussed and required to make a truly remarkable OzInverter, but remember no process should be skimped.

The OzInverter... summary... Get the silicone iron wound cores right, get the hand wound toroid correct, get the connections correct, get the cooling system correct, get the Boards in right...... Do it all properly..... and It will do 6kW for some time, that's if the batteries can take it, but it will also do even bigger/huge 15kW loads for a short time.


 

Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

clockmanFRA

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2016, 05:32:53 AM »
Phred,

Regards, making and selling boards, Nope, not my cup of tea. I am not in this for scrabbling around for monies of the backs of others, I just want a good Inverter for my boys, our community & friends.
And remember these New Boards are specifically designed for the Big Torroid OzInverter.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

oztules

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2016, 05:36:56 AM »
Thanks for the kind words Clockman ( yes folks I paid him to say all that......)....but

"That's excellent oztules, nice layout, so you have a working Control card with that egs002 card with that 8010 chip.
I do love robustness and simplicity."........

Don't forget you need to disable the 393 and jump some pins, or it will self destruct with a torroid... once done I have not been able to blow it up.... before that I blew up 5 boards trying to find out why...

Everyone has probably guessed already..... that this is indicative of me not having a clue what I'm doing....

...........oztules
Flinders Island Australia

Bruce S

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2016, 09:28:47 AM »
I have watched these posts with great interest, beginning with part 1 thru part 2 and now for a new more robust board.
There is one constant that I see.
SAFETY FIRST
OZ talks about it throughout his entire posts.
ClockmanFRA talks about it throughout his entire posts it is in the book. AND it continues to be mentioned in this new post.

When dealing with voltages of these levels and possible personal harm. IF it is not followed, it will bite you  :o.
Bravo to both OZ and ClockmanFRA for this.

Cheers
Bruce S
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Mary B

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2016, 06:06:21 PM »
Note on using a solder grommet through a board. It was a failure point in older electronics that used them. I remember having to drill them off many boards then patching traces and adding a wire top to bottom. They would corrode and break in the center...

clockmanFRA

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2016, 12:53:47 PM »
Thanks Mary B, I have beefed up the pads on both sides, so some good soldering both sides for the component legs should give a solid joint.
I use 2off those 1mm dia pins per track joint from one side to the other.

Also beefed up the FET legs where possible, and ensure they do not get to close to things. The PJ's get a little scarily close in places  ::).

Below Track Mask for component side, the final mask will loose the centre points and script, but the six Board mounting holes will remain for correct alignment of the other side Mask.

This a JPEG image translation from the CAD file so its not so good. The CAD file print out is very very accurate and in World dims, so its up to the Laser printer now, lets see how good or bad they have become, when it finally gets here.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

DamonHD

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2016, 01:52:24 PM »
At least use something like GIF or PNG to get the image our of CAD and to your printer if you can; JPEG is not designed to work well on sharp edges and small numbers of colours.

Rgds

Damon
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clockmanFRA

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2016, 05:59:06 PM »
That's the CAD's direct conversion to jpeg at 100k, PNG & GIF were even worse.

I will do a inkjet print out from my normal printer using the CAD's own printer software, and then scan it in to the PC at 600 and size down to below your 512k image max size.

Bit of a fiddle, as the Power board, although fits on a sheet of A4, at real World scale size is 5mm to much for the printer. So I have to tape on 10mm of paper strip at the front of the blank A4, tell the printer its a Legal 8inch by 14inch size, then tell the CAD software the drawing is A4 and now 310mm long. That works.

The new Laser printer will be interesting.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

frackers

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2016, 08:32:41 PM »
I'd recommend Post Script (or even pdf) as most laser printers can swallow it natively. Its a vector format so no fuzzy edges at all.

Certainly worth a try - perhaps try a couple of prints side-by-side.
Robin Down Under (Or Are You Up Over)

clockmanFRA

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2016, 03:44:13 AM »
Cheers frackers.

Here we are...... remember this is first design layout on the component side, but there may be alterations.

For instance, top left FET left leg to copper area is better than the original PJ board, but it still concerns me. Especially if you consider that the copper is relatively thin and its a Power Board.  More copper the better is my opinion, so I may move those FET's and resistors along to the right 5mm. But await to see what 'oztules' recommends.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery


lifer

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2016, 08:14:20 PM »
@clockmanFRA & friends:

Don't want to rain on your parade but how "open source" is a design copied from a commercial product?

Furthermore, what about this "open source" project when the original manufacturer quit the production of the control board (the inverter's "brain")? Do you have its microcontroller software?.. is that "open source", too?

What if I do reverse engineering on the Windows 10 code and only change the default font (as you changed the original transformer with a diy one)? May I claim it the "open source" OzWindows?!

As a disclaimer, I've made my own 6kW inverter from scratch (including all the software) with absolutely no commercial "influence". Actually, the schematic is pretty simple but I came to the actual variant after months of testings.

By the way, the PJ doesn't use a state-of-the-art design when it comes to Mosfet drivers. They're rather rudimentary and a more up to date design could further improve the inverter efficiency.

Good luck with your "open source" project but you seem to not really own the whole "source".

For that matter, any electronics project should start with a schematic not a PCB. ;)

But you're just adorable when you talk about "changing 47R to 5R6 and put a reverse diode" without knowing WHY or IF that's really the optimal choice.

oztules

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2016, 10:09:37 PM »
So glad to hear you helping people lifer.
Yes the circuit is stupidly simple now.
Interestingly, power jack have incorporated some of my changes into their units, because they are better that way.... so must read this too.

But yes your criticism is valid, in that this older stuff is captive to PJ continuing to supply their boards, and it is to this end we have now gone to firstly the 002 board for a quick test, and now to a simpler board using three chips and a few components.

This appears to be not rocket science, and the next step is a pic chip, to replace the 8010 chip.... maybe then you'll be happy, but I need to crawl first... I'm not an EE.

It is fascinating to see how secretive the run of the mill EE is, and how they desperately try to keep everything out of the reach of simple folks like me.

It's not working... we are making impressive units with first the PJ parts, now eg002  parts and soon just the 8010 chip  and soon only off the shelf parts.... your smug air of arrogance will have some wind taken out of it then.

When you publish your hard won units circuitry and software for all to use and copy, then I will have some respect for your snide comment, and I will design anyway I so choose.....

 I happen to like the suck it and see way, and so I design in the pcb progam... perhaps your unable to do that, and need to spice it first as you don't trust your designs in your head... I don't know and don't care, I will do as I wish.... and what hurts the most..... is I get results, and when that s not quite right, I modify and try again.. thats how I learn.

For now your just another chair critic with nothing to show for it, and unhelpful on a diy site. Your certainly able to look down on us, but thats not the view I see from here.

Remember, I am the village idiot, so I have nothing to loose by trying stuff.


Here for your merriment is my latest test bed for the three chip version.
And yes there are almost no components it is dirt simple...... it will hurt you I suppose if it works as well as  the previous 002 boards did

9612-0

Will it work as expected... I have no idea, but I will find out... and it will eventually work as expected. You can help if your able.


Should I expect to see documented evidence of your trevails?


..................oztules
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 10:15:59 PM by oztules »
Flinders Island Australia

frwainscott

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2016, 02:05:00 AM »
 If i may offer a little input... If you were to add a parts list and schematic for 24 volt.... Then poorer people can start at 24 volts and upgrade as they can afford to by making a new 48 volt board/or replacing parts to re-vamp their system from 24v to 48v.  I guess you could even include a parts list and schematic for 12v and 36 volts.... Really make the system fully scale-able..... Grow their system as affordable.....   

Just saying..... Frank
There are three sides to every story: Yours,Mine,& the cold hard truth!

clockmanFRA

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2016, 04:17:53 AM »
Hi frwainscott.

The 48v present version is because I had a need.

 Generally in DC terms most controllers are 48v, and more importantly a 48v dc battery system is a better cost effective way forward, and at even equalise voltage of say 61v my boys would not be harmed.

Maybe some one here can take the 48v and modify down.

Midnite Solar, (USA) are at this moment bringing out a new range of EGO Inverters, and 3 types of Wind Turbine Grid Tie Inverters. So that will be interesting.

Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

clockmanFRA

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2016, 04:21:21 AM »
Hi MaryB, and thanks for that.

I will definitely have a go with those in your links, along side normal boards and watch what happens.

The New boards will be going on the BigOzInverter so that will really test stuff.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

lifer

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Re: The OzInverter 6kW -15kW New Power Board.
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2016, 05:12:48 AM »
@oztules:

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I owe you some answers:

I might have showed up my design if these were all about "open source", as a result of a big brainstorm of many contributors and such. But the actual project is just a clone of a (outdated) commercial project thus it's not smelling as "open" at all.

And yes, the inverter design could be stupidly simple. I'm actually using an arduino-like board (more like the nano form-factor ones), four optocouplers, four performant Mosfet drivers (Microchip TC4422A), 4-6 power Mosfets per switch, four big (20uF each) polypropilene capacitors as a DC-link, a handwriten (old school) PCB and.. that's all.

Almost no other discrete parts (except the gate resistors/diodes, bootstrap and decoupling capacitors and so).

I've read tons of datasheets and application notes thus I was truly understand what's going on and how it actually works.

It's a game of nanoseconds, if you were to chase for the last bit of performance. You can't just switch a gate resistor with a random one without knowing the Mosfets parameters, the microprocessor generated deadtime, the PCB parasitics and so on.

This inverter topology is a hard switched one thus you have to minimize the effect of body diode conducting & reverse recovery. Too much of a deadtime could lead to higher spikes acros Mosfets drain-source due to body diode reverse recovery current. Too small of a deadtime could lead to shot-through. That's why I was saying that playing with this times is actually a bit of rocket science.

Of course, you may go the "destroy and learn" path but I'm a too big Mosfet-lover to watch them smoke.

I have no problem with no-EE people but it's a common sense to not write books about a subject you don't understand.

Btw, I'm not using spice & stuff as I'm only using linux and never bothered to play with wine just to simulate an circuit. I have some schematics drawing (and PCB design) software installed but I've never seriously used them.

In fact, I'm hand-drawing PCBs for almost 40(!) years now thus I come to "feel" the traces.

Especially for this kind of sensistive boards (high frequency, high currents) it's much better to manually design the PCB to avoid many culprits (parasitics, ground loops and such).

And yeah, I'm using single-side PCBs and through-hole components! I'm not against technology but I just have enough space for this kind of projects (and I can't manufacture vias anyway).