Author Topic: 15' footer upright and...well upright (Read 12820 times)

kitestrings · « **on:** November 21, 2016, 02:36:46 PM »

We had a beautiful day here Saturday, and finally got this thing up in the air. All set except for the tail boom & vane, the twist cable, and the furling line. Sunday the weather took a sharp turn and snow began, so it will be a few days, or more, before we can finish. Here are prior links to this project and I'll try to report more once it is operational.

Starting from a week or so back we took down the 25G and assembled a 45G in the same spot:

Blades, turbine and top section ready to go

Larger 45G tower sections

more to follow...

Oh, and here's our project if you haven't followed it:
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,148058.msg1026285.html#msg1026285
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,149071.0.html

kitestrings · « **Reply #1 on:** November 21, 2016, 03:41:04 PM »

Setting the tower top tube-section. It's 21' and about 170#

Upper and lower connections to guyed tower

Setting turbine

Harold in CR · « **Reply #2 on:** November 21, 2016, 06:57:19 PM »

Boy am I glad my days of doing that are long past. Nice job.

kitestrings · « **Reply #3 on:** November 22, 2016, 08:19:45 AM »

Neilho, my long-time climbing partner & I did a ton of this stuff when I was younger. It's actually quite enjoyable, especially when the weather is like this.

You'll notice that Neil modified the large gin head assembly to accommodate chain binders (often used on wood poles for winch/capstan attachments, and gins for setting transformers). Normally we use ratchet straps, but this made the large gin rock solid which was good given the length of our tube.

The ground crew

Blades going up

kitestrings · « **Reply #4 on:** November 22, 2016, 08:29:05 AM »

Missed a few:

Loading alt

Running out of daylight

View from the top

Sunday (next day) snow, and two days since...

ontfarmer · « **Reply #5 on:** November 22, 2016, 09:31:56 AM »

Thanks for sharing, great view from up there, you can be very proud of your work.

kitestrings · « **Reply #6 on:** November 22, 2016, 10:13:46 AM »

Thanks.

The turbine weighs a little over 300#; with the blades and blade plates mounted it is pushing 400#

I also realized I missed (or dropped) one intended link on winding/potting the coils:
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,147846.msg1023897.html#msg1023897

kitestrings · « **Reply #7 on:** November 28, 2016, 12:47:55 PM »

After a few days of snow, and wind, we got a gift. Saturday was warm, and near dead calm. With Mary, my wife, on ground crew we set out to set the tail.

A commercial windfarm to the west of us; spectacular views

Sunday morning. Colder, steady wind 5-15+mph. The turbine complete on it's new perch; 85'. Wired in and furling line released...

The 'Classic' CC recording power.

The rpm gauge on the rectifier indicates the rotor speed.

So far...so good. It is furling much earlier which was the primary focus of our redesign efforts while down, described here:
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,149071.0.html

The balance is much better this time around. We've got a blade nick, or perhaps where I left some unsanded epoxy that is contributing a bit of a whistle. Otherwise, I'm happy to have it functional again. We gather about 4 kWhs form Sunday ~1 PM to midnight when I shut it down. For now I'll be keeping close tabs on it.

~ks

SparWeb · « **Reply #8 on:** November 28, 2016, 07:46:35 PM »

Your hard work pays off!

Thanks for posting all these pictures. Hope it produces more and more often now.

kitestrings · « **Reply #9 on:** December 01, 2016, 12:24:32 PM »

Got a pretty good test last night. Its been warm, and we had a steady SW wind 10-15 mph with predicted gusts of 25 mph; "40 mph over ridgelines" (I think that's us). I let it run up until about 11-12 midnight when I turned in, but it got hellish after that form the sounds. I've got to get an anemometer up.

I'm real happy with where we are furling now. It appears to start in the 15 mph range.

This is the "Local app" which allows you to worry from the couch, with a beer to help calm the nerves.

There are a number of ways to shut down. The softest, and my preferred, is to manually furl the tail (with a small hand winch). The dump load will slow it pretty smoothly, but I also kept the park-brake located just above the 50A twist-lock plug/receptacle

Here's our hard working crew

and one more pic from up top

Boondocker · « **Reply #10 on:** December 03, 2016, 08:22:49 AM »

Great Photos!

It show that making power with the wind is not a "passive" method. It is certainly rewarding learning and applying skills to see those watts come down the tower.

Based on your weather description, are in the Northeast?

Boondocker.

kitestrings · « **Reply #11 on:** December 06, 2016, 01:42:29 PM »

It seems to be producing really well, particularly in low- to moderate winds, and furling sooner and more consistently. This had been an early goal.

Last night it the weather called for only 6 mph winds, yet we logged 2.5 kWh just from the time I got home ~5:30 to maybe 11 PM. Our top end so far has been 2.9 kW on Classic "A" and 1 kW on "B". Plenty high enough - I'm happy to sit out the really rough stuff for now.

Quote

Based on your weather description, are in the Northeast?

Yes, we're in the northeast "kingdom" of VT, close to the Canadian border.

SparWeb · « **Reply #12 on:** December 11, 2016, 01:02:28 PM »

Quote

Yes, we're in the northeast "kingdom" of VT, close to the Canadian border.

Ah, so that's why your photos of the view are so beautiful.

kitestrings · « **Reply #13 on:** December 16, 2016, 10:37:11 AM »

We had some pretty sustained winds here. Some of which we just "rode-thru" with the machine furled for the night. Pretty much any forecast over about 15 mph this time of year can be rather rough on our hill-top; more often at night. I'm generally more focused on kWh production through more laminar winds, but so far I'm happy to see that the controllers are now complimenting one another. This had been an early road block with the controllers.

Here's a typical high recorded on Classic "A", which takes the first ~2.5 kW from the turbine. It is current limited at 46A, at which point the voltage rises and Classic "B" takes over the upper section of the power curve. Classic "B" awakens at 90V, and starts to load ~115V.

We run from a cut-in voltage at about 58VDC to a top end at about 160V. We load divert at ~-1.0V below set-points, then at 125V we start to engage the load bank on the AC input to limit the rise.

The machine is furling really nicely, consistently now.

gsw999 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 16, 2016, 06:29:56 PM »

Impressive stuff , I wanted to be rude and ask what the cost of this setup was bearing in mind you did everything yourself, you nailed it for sure !!

kitestrings · « **Reply #15 on:** February 01, 2017, 03:57:17 PM »

Just thought I'd post some data I've been gathering on this turbine, and some general comments. Below is what I've recorded looking at Vin relative to output

We seem to have the power curve pretty well dialed in now. It took a bit of finesse on the settings to get it not only reasonably well matched, but where the split from one controller to the other was good. Back before Christmas we had a day where we recorded a peak output of 5.3 kW. Great, except that 4.2 kW was on all on the first unit. By tweaking the power curves and current limits we're able to limit the first unit to about 2.6-2.8 kW and have the second one pick up the balance.

It is producing meaningful amounts of power this winter, despite being shut down most of the time when I'm gone; probably overly cautious. It is also furling very smoothly and reliably which has improved my comfort level.
It produces well in relative light winds â€“ 300-800 watts with negligible wind at ground level â€“ and we regularly see peak outputs of 2-3.5 kW whenever the local â€œIntellicastâ€ forecast shows 8 mph or better. When the weather's a little more cooperative I'll look to get an anemometer up. Still, it is really kWh that pay the bills so to speak. I good day from my perspective is when I'm around for the day and start the thing in the morning, and we log 4-6 kWh by the time I shut it down for the night.

Boondocker · « **Reply #16 on:** February 01, 2017, 07:48:26 PM »

Hi Kitestrings,

Looks as you are on a good wind site. What are doing with all of those peak watts?

It is certainly nice to have a larger turbine to harvest appreciable power just above cut-in.

Kind regards,

Boondocker

kitestrings · « **Reply #17 on:** February 02, 2017, 01:49:55 PM »

Quote

What are doing with all of those peak watts?

Well, we've got a much bigger tank than we've had in the past. Our battery bank is now 1,233 Ah at 48V, or about 30 kWh usable (at 50% DOD). We've gotten accustomed to using power when it is available - delayed timing of laundry, scheduling shop projects, and the like. And, we're also load diverting to a water preheat tank using the Waste-not function of the charge controller.

kitestrings · « **Reply #18 on:** March 12, 2017, 06:13:09 PM »

Quote

We seem to have the power curve pretty well dialed in now.

I might of known that was premature. I don't know if anyone else has gotten the winds we have in the last few days, but it has been wild here. Yesterday the temps were -17F in the morning and never got above 4 to 5F all day. I mostly watched, and tweaked our turbine when I wasn't feeding the wood stove. Then there was the wind. Steady in the 15-20 mph range all day yesterday and last night; gusts around 45 mph. Today they were a bit less, but steady all day long.

On Thursday we logged a high output of 3,760 w on one controller and 1,064 w on the second. The Classic 250's have a max current rating of 62A at 25C; derated current is 52A at 40C. The fans are non-programmable and go ON at 48C; Off at 45C. I had the current limit set at 42A on the fist unit. I know it is only briefly at the 'max output', but it is just too close for my liking. It comes up fast with the right gust (unfurl, yaw..and bam). I loaded yet another power curve (I'm on MEM6 now), this one has the current limit at 40A, and the second unit is set to 'wake' earlier, and load more.

I'm anxious to see what it recorded today - which won't post until midnight - but yesterday we had similar overall output, but the first unit held at about 2.8 kW, and the second one grabbed just short of 2 kW. I wish they allowed the two controllers to share equally, but they never pursued this firmware option.

The furling performed really, really well. This was probably the roughest sustained winds that we've let'r run through. At times it will fold and stay there through a pro-longed high point, or stay at near full-furl position 'til it subsides. I'm fine with this.

~ks

kitestrings · « **Reply #19 on:** March 13, 2017, 08:39:33 AM »

(comparatively balmy) Burlington reported that Saturday was the coldest on record since 1885...we were about 6-7 degF lower than by the lake.

Our peak output for the day yesterday was 2,886w on the first controller and 1,350w on the second with a peak PV in (input voltage to the controller) of 126V. This looks a bit better to me.

SparWeb · « **Reply #20 on:** March 15, 2017, 05:27:58 PM »

I hear the whole Eastern seaboard had crazy winds for days.
Heck of a shakedown for your 15-footer.

kitestrings · « **Reply #21 on:** October 10, 2017, 12:11:51 PM »

We had a rather unexpected wind event on Sunday. It was overcast and raining in the morning and we had steady predicted winds in the 12-22 mph range. I think this was supposed to be the tail end of Hurricane Nate. What I didn't see coming was a short burst mid-day that was very sudden, and quite violent. Intellicast showed 35 mph gusts, I suspect at the turbine height it could have been much higher. Anyhow I had been watching steady output off and on all morning when this happened. It gets pretty busy trying to capture it all, but briefly, here's what happened:

1) The first charge controller (A) takes the first 40A or roughly 2.6 kW. The input voltage is now exceeding ~103V.
2) Above this point A current limits and passes the excess to the second controller.
3) The second (B) controller awakes about 85V - so it was up and ready - at a little over 100V B starts to load up, and maxs out around 150V and 50A.
4) If the battery voltage is within ~.2 of the set-point we start load diverting to hot water, but it is a modest load of 1.2-1.4 kW on the DC bus.
5) At about 125V we start to engage a resistive load bank on the AC side of the rectifiers. At this speed it is the equivalent of applying an estimated 5-6 kW.
6) At ~130V another Aux relay output now triggers the furling actuator, and the tail is mechanically furled, well it was probably anyway, but it is now held fully furled. This takes about 30-secs.
7) If the DC voltage gets to about 228V an Omron voltage sensing relay opens the 3-phase input from the turbine and simultaneously closes in the load bank, full on. Here were looking to protect the controllers; hopefully the turbine.

As near as I can tell all items 1-6 occurred in a very short span of time. We were still below the max input voltage in #7. Here is the peak data recorded for the day:

kitestrings · « **Reply #22 on:** October 16, 2017, 10:14:40 AM »

Something wasn't quite settling for me on these last readings. If everything is working as it should we don't normally get this high on input voltage. What I discovered is that when we rebooted a month or so ago after a lightning event that the OCP protection defaulted to its original settings. Normally the display will toggle between its normal setting "kWh __._ Bulk MPPT" and "OCP is Off!". I'd missed that this unit (A) was not doing this. I also witnessed it going off-line ('Resting' mode) when it hits the current limit.

I reset the OCP status, and now we're working normally. My guess is that the readings above were not cumulative. More likely unit A freaked (unloaded, and went to Resting) and left unit B to pick up the slack. When this happens B loads up, then A jumps back in when the current drops a bit, but it is all very uncoordinated, and the rotor velocity can shoot up. With OCP off all this goes away an the two controllers play well together; sharing the load as they should.

SparWeb · « **Reply #23 on:** October 16, 2017, 02:08:21 PM »

Ouch. Could that have been a disaster?
On the face of it, hearing that the A controller could go into a "resting" (or zero power?) mode and abruptly drop all load onto the B controller, it sounds like a recipe for overloading the B controller too!
Can B controller also go into Resting mode and completely unload the turbine?
Or would everything then be suddenly shunted to the diversion load?
What is the purpose of this mode (except maybe solar)?

kitestrings · « **Reply #24 on:** October 16, 2017, 03:14:09 PM »

Well, yes, its definitely not good. This was the biggest obstacle we faced setting this thing up. As I understand it OCP = Over Current Protection. It is intended to protect the FETs. An OCP action/error is usually caused by a perceived short in the battery side of things where the Classic senses a massive drop in battery voltage. Reportedly this usually only happens when the input voltage is real high and there is a big load on the inverter, or if the battery cables are to small, that sort of thing.

Anyhow after changing some suspect wiring and where we took off with our load diversion - all of which had no effect - we eventually determined that it was just too sensitive for wind mode. We ran some semi-controlled tests by motoring the thing up with the EV. With OCP disabled everything works fine. the important thing, and I'd forgot this, is that after any update or reboot we need to verify the Modbus tweak to disable OCP.

With regard to other means of protection. We do add a (DC) diversion load, but that is relative to battery voltage and may or may not coincide depending on SOC. The 3-phase load dump is solely based on input voltage and it seems to be working as intended. Then there is the furling. Frankly, I'm glad that it furls as early as it does. We seem to get good output with a reliable means of governing.

Lastly, I have our power furling automated now so that it furls above a preset Vin.

SparWeb · « **Reply #25 on:** October 17, 2017, 02:14:15 PM »

Aha. I hadn't grokked the purpose of running the generator with the EV when you posted that last year.
Now what I get is that you would like to operate in "wind" mode but the control isn't too refined and you use a different mode instead.
The other mode wouldn't be possible without a Modbus tweek to prevents the OCP from disconnecting the turbine completely.
Sounds like a case for a big red warning sticker beside the Classics to remind your future self of what you know today.
I've done this on my charge controllers to remind to disconnect the temperature sensors in the winter, reconnect them in the spring.

Bruce S · « **Reply #26 on:** October 17, 2017, 02:43:29 PM »

Quote from: SparWeb on October 17, 2017, 02:14:15 PM

grokked

SparWeb;
I had not seen this I last read Stranger in a Strange Land!!

PS>> I'm still waiting on the movie

clockmanFRA · « **Reply #27 on:** October 17, 2017, 03:47:29 PM »

KS,

I have been watching your build and set up with the Classics with great interest.

Over the past 8 years, I find with my three HP's, that in a strong wind there is just a brief split second that the Volts just climb so fast before the furling can take place.

Its that kind of moment when you grab your own crotch, and mutter.!

I am just wandering if those Classics are fast enough, or as you say alter the furling.

SparWeb · « **Reply #28 on:** October 17, 2017, 08:31:16 PM »

KS,
Me too. Trying to put the word back into public use.

Clockman,
We are victims of our success - we make efficient blades with low drag and high-lift profiles. As a result, they respond to gusts of wind with dramatic accelerations. Mine too, can ramp up very quickly. It's worse when mine's stator windings are switched to "high power" mode, and for that reason I fear leaving it unattended in that setting.

Today's wind here is >60 kph and it has been shut down for several hours.
http://www.weatherlink.com/user/sparweb/index.php?view=main&headers=0

kitestrings · « **Reply #29 on:** October 17, 2017, 10:17:51 PM »

It was actually Bruce that commented on the vocab - but I like it as well, and hope I can remember it in the future. Which is where some of this started (my memory, or lack there of).

Quote

Now what I get is that you would like to operate in "wind" mode but the control isn't too refined and you use a different mode instead.

We do operate in wind mode. And generally it all works splendidly. The one glitch, is when you have two of them, as in our case, the point where they transition - one controller says, "I've had enough", and should current limit and then pass the excess, that is where the OCP function causes some heartburn. With it disabled; all is good. Your point about a flash card near the unit I was already on... I overlooked this step when I re-powered after the last lightning storm.

Why do you disconnect your temp sensors in the winter? I've forgotten what the temp swings are for your batteries.

clockmanFRA, yes, wind is far from docile and the rotor can accelerate very fast in the right, or wrong conditions. The MPPT is actually a bit of a misnomer, at least as we think of it in solar applications. The wind curve is pre-programmed in the controller(s), so there really is no delay in responding - at a given input voltage the controller loads to a given amperage. So, in and of itself MPPT doesn't really effect the furling, except for that the rotor operates over a wider range than a direct-tied system I suspect. Unloading the turbine suddenly; I'd prefer to avoid that situation entirely.

BTW, I haven't seen any repeat of the tail issue on yours, so I assume your fix has solved this problem.

Best, ~ks

SparWeb · « **Reply #30 on:** October 19, 2017, 12:07:32 AM »

Got it. Sharing between 2 Classics only works when they current limit rather than OCP.

My sealed AGM cells have a 2.35 VPC bulk voltage limit, which on a 24V arrangement is 28.2 volts. I do exceed that occasionally because there may be some value in overcharging every few months, but routinely overcharging would generate gas which can escape rather than recombine. The user's manuals for my batteries are pretty explicit on the matter. The cells are sealed and should remain sealed for the life of the battery.

My cells should float at 2.25V per cell, and temperature compensation is allowed as long as the limit is not exceeded. Since the slope is 0.005V/C starting at 25 degrees Centigrade, then to make the difference of 0.1V I get:
25degC - (0.1v / 0.005 V/C ) = 5C

Well these cells are obviously designed to be stored indoors, but I have to keep mine outdoors (no room in the house and it would have a very long cable run if I did).
So in the winter months, about November to February, I can expect the temperatures to be below -10C so pretty frequently I would be overcharging the batteries if I allowed temperature compensation to rule the float or absorption voltage.

Next thing to bear in mind is that I have 2 charge controllers, one for wind diversion, one for solar. I set them differently from each other and at different times of the year. The diversion controller has no control over the float voltage, so with or without the temp sensor connected, it will divert at 28.2-28.3 volts anyway. But I may choose to turn the diversion voltage up a few notches for an "equalizing" charge sometimes. The solar controller needs the temp sensor disconnected in the winter. I also tweak the settings so that it floats higher, like 27.6v.

There were a few winters when I didn't do that - I had a special diversion load heating water for the horses and I WANTED the diversion to run, so I let the solar float voltage rise and set off the diversion heater. It was fun to play them against one another. I should get that hooked up again, but it was ad-hoc, and I went over the extension cord a few too many times with the snowplough.

clockmanFRA · « **Reply #31 on:** October 19, 2017, 03:13:52 AM »

Quote from: kitestrings on October 17, 2017, 10:17:51 PM

BTW, I haven't seen any repeat of the tail issue on yours, so I assume your fix has solved this problem.

Best, ~ks

Yes KS, all behaving.

I showed the Fieldlines thread http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,149176.0.html to Hugh on his blog.

http://scoraigwind.co.uk/2014/03/havoc-with-4-2-metre-turbines-in-france/#comment-171867

I like his method of a flat bar bolted on to the main frame and then just twisted over so it sits, just missing the top of the tail, I like that idea.

No moving parts, Easy to unbolt for maintenance and a more secure device for keeping the tail tamed.

News:

Author Topic: 15' footer upright and...well upright (Read 12820 times)