Author Topic: Still death-traps on the road  (Read 5829 times)

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dnix71

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Still death-traps on the road
« on: March 04, 2017, 05:36:29 PM »
This has been going on since car makers went from mechanical throttle to fly by wire. My neighbor has a 2001 Mercury 6 cyl. that he was working on Friday and needed an 8mm wrench to replace a component again. I loaned him a socket wrench and asked what the trouble was. He was replacing the swirl control valve again, thinking that was why he had sudden acceleration.

People used to joke that it was operator error, mistaking the gas pedal for the brake, but he showed me in the parking lot in park, start the car and it would idle normally for a few seconds and then full throttle (4000k rpm) and not back down until shut off. It was so dangerous to drive he had parked it until he could verify the fix.

Google the term "sudden acceleration" and your car model and you will likely get real returns. Ford willfully refused to deal with this for 10 years. In my neighbor's case, it could be the swirl valve or it's gasket, or the throttle position sensor or as he found, the cruise control cable slipping out of place. A 10 cent wire tie fixed it.

I would curse Ford, but Toyota had problems, Audi had problems, pretty much anyone that went to fly by wire could have a condition where the computer would go runaway throttle. Maybe I should curse Ford, though, because the simple 2 fixes are easy and universal. I saw a car 15 years ago with a programmed throttle limit. If you floored the pedal in park or neutral the ignition would cut off at 2k and resume when the rpm dropped back below that and hang and surge around 2k. The other fix, which I hear is now almost universal, also prevents people from driving with 2 feet. Brake Override causes the engine to drop to idle when the brake is depressed, no matter what any other input says. Engine runaway for any reason stops immediately when the brake is tapped. You also can't drive with 2 feet, because with your foot on the brake even slightly the engine won't come up above idle.

frackers

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2017, 11:10:13 PM »
You also can't drive with 2 feet, because with your foot on the brake even slightly the engine won't come up above idle.
As well as getting rid of that constant and extremely irritating brake light when peeps drive like this!
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george65

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2017, 12:11:51 AM »
I see those types and wonder how the fact they have to be constantly going through brake pads doesn't give them or their mechanic a clue to have a chat with them on how to drive correctly.

The ones I would like to have banned from the roads are the incompetent morons whom go down a hill 20 under the limit with their foot on the brake and slowing more for every turn.  Then going back up the other side on just as tight bends, they do the limit or over.
Went a couple of places yesterday and was going nuts with people doing this. The competency of drivers just keeps getting lower and lower.

As for the runaway fly by wire, on older vehicles there should be known fixes not to rectify them and on later vehicles I'm pretty sure the problem has been cured long ago.

I much rather have a runaway engine than a brake failure.

OperaHouse

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2017, 05:22:53 AM »
I had that problem with a Ford Explorer. I would be stopped and suddenly the rpm would jump to over 2,000. Dis this a couple of times.   I was able to get to a parking lot to see if I could find the problem, I shut off the engine.  Didn't see anything obvious.  I was lucky to be charging a SLA battery from the lighter socket.  Had a small ohm resistor to limit current in series with the battery.  When I tried starting the car that resistor went up in smoke.  Opened the hood to look at the battery and one of the terminals had a cracked connector.  Evidently while being stopped a spike on the 12V line reset the computer.  It thought the engine was being started and opened the Idle Air Control Valve fully.  Didn't have a problem for years after that was fixed.  Just try telling that story to a cop after rear ending someone at a stop light.

JW

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2017, 10:41:11 AM »
Im a re-certified ASE master tech (over 20 years) and Advanced level specialist.

We first saw these type of malfunctions even with a throttle cables. It comes from the TPS (throttle position sensor) Now the TPS is built into the drive by wire throttle body.

The drive by wire system should be protect that condition by going into limp in mode. The gas pedal sensor has a Potentiometer that will be read by the computer there is a x pattern so one reading goes from high to low and another going low to high ohms.

The throttle body has the same arrangement with the tps.

So considering the protective circuit on each what your experiencing should be impossible, suspect the ECM. There is a manual way to check the pots and if you detect the a bad sensor the commander ECM.

If you have OBD11 scan tool you can access the signals from the data list and its an easy way to verify the TPS readings.     

dnix71

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2017, 11:33:09 AM »
JW I have scan tool, but there are no codes set. Ford didn't set logic traps for enough possible aberrant conditions. Even the codes set many times don't tell you what is really going on. My neighbor has a 2006 Hyundia Sonata. The rubber tube that connects the air intake to the manifold had cracks that were not visible from above. The computer set 4 codes, mostly about #4 cylinder misfire and a possible bad coil pack. He had surge at idle and sometimes the engine would just quit. A google search revealed all 4 codes could be a vacuum leak, so I removed the part and showed him the crack, plus a rotted 4 inch vacuum line.

The cracked tube cost $200, so I wrapped it in electrical tape and that fixed it immediately, without even having to rest the ECM.

My own Toyota acts wonky when the exhaust gasket goes bad. This has happened twice. After the Challenger disaster you would think people would just know that 0-rings and hot exhaust gasses are a bad mix, but Nooo, not Toyota.
The O2 sensor is 4 inches below the leaky fitting and sees air leaking in and begins to run rough. The o-ring needs to stay compressed to maintain a seal, but asbestos is illegal now, so they use silica, which cracks and falls out. I have resorted to adding a wire inside where the silica fell out. That sort of fixes it.

JW

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2017, 11:43:16 AM »
Are you using after market gaskets, Toyota typically uses metal gaskets. I wouldn't worry to much about the bad O2 sensor readings, the ECM will just go into open loop and the engine will run just fine, but with worse gas mileage.

dnix71

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2017, 02:19:25 PM »
That's what happens. My gas mileage goes down and the engine runs rich. The aftermarket gaskets I use are metal, but the design requires compression, which metal doesn't do. The two cast iron flanges are machined flat and in the middle is a ring of material removed for the gasket. Twice now I have had nuts fall off one side as well. One side has a stud threaded through and tanged so it won't come out. That stud prevents the Cat pipe from dropping off onto the road. The other side is a bolt. I don't know why they didn't just make the surface flat and use a plain metal exhaust gasket like the one between the block and header. I don't see why I couldn't add one if I found one the correct diameter, except that maybe the exhaust header needs to transfer heat to the cat pipe by direct contact. I have heard of the headers cracking, but so far mine hasn't.

The gas mileage matters. I do 35 miles a day in stop and go city traffic just to get to and from work. I had a Ford van before the move and I would be in financial trouble if I still had the van. It only got 15 MPG around town. The Toyota gets over 40 MPG on the highway and about 30 MPG in town. Plus even though it is 20 years old, everything still works and it turns easily. Doing a u-turn in the Ford usually meant a 3-point turn, and stopping traffic, or going wide right to shave a lane.

Warpspeed

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2017, 04:21:19 PM »
There is usually an idle speed air control valve that admits air around the throttle.
That could also cause sudden changes in engine speed.

JW is right, the drive by wire system itself is a dual redundant system that is designed to be fail safe for very obvious reasons.
But there are other ways besides the actual throttle that can admit air into the engine, including faulty split rubber vacuum hoses, leaking gaskets, and electrical problems with the fast idle system.

joestue

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2017, 04:35:59 PM »
The computer in my s-10 would randomly decide that the engine should idle at 2K-2.4K rpm via the idle air control valve.

Usually this isn't a serious problem on most cars because there isn't enough air available to make it a driving hazard. In my case, the engine runs find with the idle air control valve disconnected, so I disconnected the cable when it was idling at 700rpm. might be safe to say most cars will not run without the idle air control valve because the ecu was not programed by engineers who care about reliability. some cars have a pressure sensor on the power steering pump, the ecu will increase idle speed if the pressure falls. only problem being there is no upper limit. i have heard of cars revving to 3000+ rpm if that sensor fails or if the wire breaks.

george65

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2017, 06:18:39 PM »

The gas mileage matters. I do 35 miles a day in stop and go city traffic just to get to and from work. I had a Ford van before the move and I would be in financial trouble if I still had the van.

Americans are so curious with Fuel Prices.
They pay less than half what we and a lot of the rest of the world pays and when their fuel price gets anywhere near what others pay all the time, they literally want to invade other Countries ( always arab countries) and take the oil to keep the price cheap.
Then there is the thing about dependence on Middle east oil where they ignore the fact that they get considerably more oil from Canada than all their other oil sources combined.  ::)

Given the low cost of US fuel, the proclivity and obsession with " Gas" mileage only adds to the irony as does the frequent suggestion that people living in the suburbs " Need" that truck or SUV because they can't fit in anything smaller as I have heard so many times before. 
Funny, I have met a few Americans and none of them were 7ft tall nor could not fit in cars the rest of the world does fine with.

Warpspeed

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2017, 09:00:28 PM »
Oh God you are right George.
Anyone that drives less than an 800 Hp three ton SUV and carries a gun is not a real man.

Any threat to gasoline prices demands that some crummy little third world country be nuked.
That is why there are eleven nuclear armed carrier battle groups, to enforce the paper US dollar on the rest of the world.

There is about to be a very profound shock in the US.


clockmanFRA

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2017, 12:04:59 AM »
Normandy, France.

Spotted this in our local town car park, this Saturday.

Its a Fiberglass Micro car, single cylinder diesel under 500cc. max speed at 25mph. My boys call these machines Cement Mixers!

Mostly driven by folk who have lost their normal driving licence, majority because of drink, but the Government here state that the Citizen must have transport to get to work.



Everything is possible, just give me time.

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3off Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (9 years).  .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (5 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled Used/SH GTI's, on my OzInverter created Grid, and back charging with AC Coupling to the OzInverter to my 48v 1300ah batteries.

OperaHouse

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2017, 01:00:54 AM »
Looks like you can still hit things at 25mph.  Where is the handicap sticker!

george65

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2017, 07:43:42 AM »

Mostly driven by folk who have lost their normal driving licence, majority because of drink,

Does not appear as If they have learnt their lesson going by the appearance of that particular Vehicle.  ::)

JW

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2017, 04:13:19 PM »
These forums are so great, this one for wind turbines.

Funny the drive by wire throttle-bodys came up. Just today I had a Nissan 2002 Altima that the throttle was not working at all, then would work for a awhile then not reliably.

The first thing I did was the acid test for drive by wire throttling couple.  Now before this test I was a getting a semi-response from the gas pedal. I left the engine running with the hood up went in and disconnected the electronic throttle body. I plugged it back in and went to the gas pedal hit the throttle ~no response at all. So I knew it wasn't the ECM at fault.

Im getting different responses from the gas pedal, but the car was not drivable. It turned out to be the alternator was making 17volts and as a protection measure the engine was being engaged so as the alternator was putting out so many volts that the computer was bring the rpm down.

Heres the link

http://x.nissanhelp.com/forums/altima/19155-2002-altima-3-5-se-abs-tcs-off-lights-no-acceleration-over-1500-rpm.html

read it carefully I posted a thank you  in the last post.

JEREMY

dnix71

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2017, 04:37:22 PM »
Gas prices here fluctuate wildly because of politics. Within the last 8 years gas has been as high as $4.50/gallon and as low as $1.80/gallon.

If you drive a long way to work to get a better job or higher pay, the price of gas matters a great deal. Mass transit in south Florida works in theory, but in practice it takes so long to go even short distances that the majority of people must have a car if they are to have any chance to advance in the workforce. What makes transit here so slow is that the area was initially built without an Interstate highway and the toll road (the "Turnpike") was built upon swampland, because it was cheap, to connect the southern part of the state with the rest. It wasn't intended as a commuter road. The Turnpike is a raised highway that blocks east-west traffic now because the swamp was drained and now 1/2 the population lives on the west side. To cross the Turnpike and go 17 miles to work takes me at least 45 minutes.

I only had one incident with full throttle runaway on a carburated car. I had a 1975 VW Rabbit. A previous owner had swapped the Solex carb for a Webber, but the Webber throttle cable faced the other way and was close to the firewall. One day the cable kinked wide open when I was on US1 in Delray Beach. Because the car had a stick shift I put it in neutral and took the key out of the ignition. Unfortunately the engine kept right on running, apparently on compression alone, so I put it in 4th gear, stood on the brake and dropped the clutch. That shut it down. If it hadn't I was going to run away because the transverse mounted engine would have eventually exploded from the rpms and I didn't trust the hood to contain the shrapnel.


JW

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2017, 04:50:16 PM »
Ive heard of some awesome run-away conditions on snowmobiles do to carbs icing up.

My nephew was driving a 80 or 100mph in his mustang the down shifted into 2 gear and shot two con rods thru the side of the engine block.

Jeremy 

MattM

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2017, 07:58:27 PM »
S-10 pickups used to run away when the floor map caught the pedal just right.  Almost every car has some flaw.

ghurd

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2017, 09:01:23 PM »

The gas mileage matters. I do 35 miles a day in stop and go city traffic just to get to and from work. I had a Ford van before the move and I would be in financial trouble if I still had the van.

Americans are so curious with Fuel Prices.
They pay less than half what we and a lot of the rest of the world pays...

Maybe... Taxes is why other places pay more.
I don't see the crude price depending on what country is getting it.

I know people who drive 80 miles each way to work. 160 miles a day just for work.
I don't think twice about driving 500 miles in 8 hours to visit a friend for a day.
I know people in other countries that can't fathom that.
In perspective, Germany is about the size of Wisconsin? And most Americans can't even find Wisconsin on an American map.

Oh God you are right George.
Anyone that drives less than an 800 Hp three ton SUV and carries a gun is not a real man.
I drive a Prius. And carry more than "a" gun. Maybe I'm an oxymoron.

I agree with Mary. Too much.
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DamonHD

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2017, 12:23:51 AM »
Please be gentle again folks; one person has pointed out to the mods that an earlier post on the thread has been unnecessarily putting the boot in a rather stereotypical view of Americans.

Also, let's not bring up the guns topic, as that also causes heat rather than light...

Ho hum...

Should I put on my best school-teacher voice?  B^>

Rgds

Damon

Bruce S

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2017, 07:21:16 AM »
GHURD;
Howdy! YES taxes on fuel in our state is 44.5 cents for a gallon of petrol that is at 2.09USD/gallon and they're voting to raise it.

DamonHD
Sorry for the tardiness , the upgrade did not go as planned.

I do agree with asking people step back from being stereotyping. not all Americans are as george65 and Warpspeed put us.

ClockmanFRA, one of those around here would be great!! A 500cc single lung diesel would be fun. The vehicle of choice for those who have lost their driving licenses is the 49cc 4-stroke scooters.
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Mary B

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2017, 05:07:00 PM »
I drive a pickup for one reason, with my bad back it is the easiest to get in and out of.  Also the most comfortable with the upright driving position. I get around 18-24mpg with a 5.4l V8(Ford F-150 Triton V8 that loves to puke out spark plugs). But I also do not drive much, a tank of gas often lasts me 2 months now since I am retired and rarely go anywhere.

joestue

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2017, 06:28:26 PM »
S-10 pickups used to run away when the floor map caught the pedal just right.  Almost every car has some flaw.
yeah, but the instantanious feed back to the driver that something is wrong with the gas pedal should trigger other alternatives. such as the brake, or the clutch.

if you're driving in situations where half seconds count. God help you. and i mean that most sincerely,.

clockmanFRA

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2017, 12:16:16 AM »
Bruce, sadly, here in France the days of the 14 year old swapping his ordinary bicycle for a 49cc moped/scooter and just needs insurance, have long gone.

I miss that madness and mayhem in the evenings in the local town, with the local teens strutting their stuff. Yea falling off, but at least they were learning road sense for the future.

Petrol here in France is about $7 US dollars a gallon, diesel is cheaper at just over $5 US a gallon, as everything here seems to run on diesel.  If you use Agricultural diesel, its at about $2.5 US a gallon, in a normal domestic vehicle and are caught by the police, then expect a fine equalling to the vehicles total mileage done.
 
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.

3off Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (9 years).  .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (5 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled Used/SH GTI's, on my OzInverter created Grid, and back charging with AC Coupling to the OzInverter to my 48v 1300ah batteries.

Bruce S

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2017, 06:58:02 AM »
ClockmanFRA:
In some states here, they impose a hefty fine for making/using your on bio-diesel. Which to me is stupid, but then I'm no politician .
Our city does not, and until I sold my 1984 300TD I made my own with the only additive being 87Octane in the winter for better starting. I miss that car.

In Michigan the agri-fuel was the same way ,no taxes and if you got caught there was a huge fine. They at one time used a colorant to be able to tell the difference.

In Brussels there used to be a government program that would help the citizens if they wanted to convert their gasoline powered vehicle to propane. One such friend did just that on his old rebuilt Willy's military jeep. Was nice, he had a great source of repair/replacement parts too.

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frackers

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Re: Still death-traps on the road
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2017, 01:05:04 PM »
Diesel here in NZ is priced a much better way - only one grade that everyone pays the same amount for with no tax "at the pump". Same stuff is used for heating, agriculture, trucks, cars.

You need to pay a separate "Road User Charge" where you buy 1000km credits, the amount being dependent on the gross weight of the vehicle. This means that I don't have to pay over the odds for the 20l can (for my tractor) I get at the local petrol station.

No dyes, customs checking tanks and the other silliness that I knows happens in the UK for example.
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