HYDRO

[Basil]

This project has been slow. 
I was to use a 2 HP 3 Phase motor.
I went with the Ametek 38 volt brushed PM motor that was my wind turbine.
A storm took it out this spring. Broke one of the blades so I did not take
the time to repair and reinstall it. Was nice to watch.
Plus I have a spare.

I have been going down to my dad's a lot this year. He is 81 so I work on his tractor for him.
Work on it a lot more each passing year. I don't know which will go first.
Him or the Farm All A 100. He is trying his best to make it the tractor. He has had it for over 40 years.

While there I helped him clean out the spill ways ( 2 ) to our lake several times.
Lot's of rain and other things. Only one has run off unless it rains hard.
There is still enough water to fill a 6 '' pipe leaving the lake.
As I have said in the past, I plan to use 3'' or 4'' pipe. Maybe 3'' with 2 runs for 2 units.
Water gets to low for 2, Shut one off.
To the lowest point of the dam is about 100 feet run. ( +/- ) I have measured this.
I have not measured the head but it is around 20 to 25 feet. Maybe 30 feet.
This is what I made for my first test.

It does not look like much I know. I will paint it to make it look better.
It will be mounted to lay on it's side to work.
I will make a cover for the Motor to protect it from the elements..

I tested the angle for the best / Fastest rotation with an air hose.
It was the only way I knew of to get a starting point.
With the bolt and some shims I can adjust the angle if needed.

The blade is a plastic blower blade. I have looked at many things and this looks to be promising.
That is without buying something made for it. It is 6 1/2 '' by 3''.
I used the same arbor that was on the wind turbine. The pipe is 1 1/4''.
It is flattened out at the end to make a spout 1/4 by near 3'' wide.
I will go from 3'' or 4'' pipe down to the 1 1/4'' at the very end. I have a lot of ways to try.
Make the 1/4'' spout BIGGER or smaller. Closer or father away.
Bigger pipe spout or smaller.
Different Motors / Gens.
I will post more when I get the thing installed. Installation may take some time.
Like I said this one is SLOW.
Thanks for the help with this project given on and off the board.

[jlt]

You may need to close both sides of the blower blade,and also cut out bottom of the housing . to allow the water to escape. I would use one large pipe with different size nozzles.

[Basil]

jlt
Thanks I did not think of that.

Yes I see what you mean. Well worth the time to do.
I will do it and poat a photo of it when done.
Ok, I may be over thinking it now but how about the
sides and bottom closed off? This would make it like a cup.

The unit is to be mounted on it's side to work.
Letting the water out the ( was bottom/now side )

The nozzle part I will have to think on a bit.

[ghurd]

"You may need to close both sides of the blower blade"
Why?


PVC pipe?  Might check the local price of 3" and 4" before committing.
Last time I looked, the 4" was cheaper.
G-

[jlt]

On this Discussion board there. was an article of some one using a stator out of a subru auto trans to make a sort of turgo  turbine.with it you could have several nozzles.And it is made from metal should last longer than plastic.Just an option . what you have should work 

[Basil]

ghurd
I like the idea of shaping it as little cups. I don't know if it will help.
Looks like it would. Going to try it. The water has room
to get out of the way so  I don't think it will hurt performance any.

  jlt
stator out of a subru auto trans to make a sort of turgo
I have heard of that. I was trying a VW blower fan.
To big. For what I was doing. 

[Basil]

jlt
I used a tin coffee can. The end fit right in to make the side wall.
I cut the can sides to fit inside. I cut a small tab to lock it in place.
Used silicon to glue the end plate on. Plus it will hole the in side plate
so it wont try to move.

The object of this is to see how much power
I can make with what I have and what I can put together.
LOVE :The little things one can learn while doing it.
What fun would it be to just buy and install the best.

[ghurd]

I don't know anything about hydro except that it fascinates me... But the coffee can looks counter-productive... to me.

Seems like it went from a Michell / Banki / Ossberger / crossflow, to an under/overshot style?
From an impulse to a reaction type?
I don't think thats good for the type using a nozzle and high pressure with high speed.

G-

[Basil]

ghurd
I may be wrong but I'm trying to get all the force or push out of the small amount of head I have.
I may add a second spout / nozzle.
I have the flow but not much head pressure. So I was trying to meet half way on it.
I don't think I can't get much speed from the pressure of a 20 ft to 30 ft of Head.
I will messure it next time I'm down there.
I could be all wrong own my thinking. What is the most static pressure from 20 ft to 30 ft of Head ft?

If the head is only 20 feet 100 feet pipe 4 inch pipe
With this length the optimum water volume you may use is around 120 -130 GPM
This is the amount of flow I have. I have measured it.
 The watts that can be generated :  head * volume * 6 = 6 * 8.2 * 6 = 295 watts
but due to the low head the expected harvested power looks  like  NOT more
than 180-200 watts, ( the volume used reduces head for about 1.5 feet )

Information is from another source.
Thanks
I can see using this to it's fullest in the future.
But for now I will be glad to get a few watts or what ever I can get.
One thing, once the pipe is in place I can try other turbines.

[ghurd]

"for now I will be glad to get a few watts or what ever I can get."
I would be too!
Looks like Huge Fun.
No falling water around here to play with.   

[Basil]

OK I had to move the 8'' spill way pipe that I put in a few weeks back.
I moved it 4 ft over and added 20 more feet to total 40 foot of 8'' pipe to the old spillway ditch.
Everthing is now out of the way to make a nice but small yard for the camper. I will have to
have some dozier work done to make it ready for the camper. Need a bigger place for the camper
and make the old road to it wider.
I have a T to fit the 8'' pipe that I put a 4'' connector in line with. Good part is I can add pipe to the upper
part of the T to raise the lake level.
The water supply this year is not even enough to run the unit even if I was ready to install it.
It has been HOT and I mean HOT and DRY here most of the summer.
Here is the test frame I made to hold the 1 HP EMC Motor / Gen.
I know it would not last but I will paint it good and use it to see what power I can get.
[ Specified attachment is not available ]
Here are 3 runners I made for testing. Not going to buy a real one until I set the camper up.

I missed placed the 6 inch runner photo.
Next is the nozzle and mount. Nothing more than a 3/4 cap and nipple.

The best part is I took three 60 watt light and hooked them up Jerry rigged.

The gen is just laying there and does not try to rotate until it gets above 70 volts.
Then I have to hold it lightly to keep it from turning when it is at 120 volt. All there lights are at full power.
I checked the RPM and it was at 416 rmp at 120 volts, 180 watts AC.
I have did a little testing rectifying it to DC and it takes a lot more torque to just get 8 amps DC.
I will do testing it as DC and post that later.
If anyone knows of that testing to a 1 HP EMC motor already done please fill free to add a link here to it.
Yea, I had trouble with the photos.

[ghurd]

ECMs tend not to all test the same unless they have all the part numbers exactly the same.
I doubt you will find any solid data that relates to the version you have.
G-

[Basil]

If this project was much slower it would be not moveing at all.
My rmp meter is old and not working good. This is not right.  ( I checked the RPM and it was at 416 rmp at 120 volts, 180 watts AC )
I'm sure I was at 1150 to 1400 rpm when It was putting out 120 volts.

We are getting less rain the last few years and I have less water leaveing the lake. Around a 2'' pipe full most of the time now.
To make up for this I

[Basil]

Sorry I had to stop short the other day. These are just updates to my diaries.
Also I added 20 more feet of 8'' pipe to the spill way. Total now is 60 ft. I did this to have the spill way outlet out of what will be part of the yard.
To make up for this I lowered the 8'' pipe around a foot. Lowered the lake level so I can back it up to normal level have some reserve.
2 1/2 acre lake. That's a lot of reserve water.
I have a 4'' flap valve to shut the water off to the turbine when the batteries are full. This will be controlled with a G dump controller. I hope. This will let the lake fill back up to normal level again.
With this set up I can have a full 4'' pipe all the time when the turbine is running.
I will have a dump load in case it's needed but plan on not using it.

I have already contracted the grading work to be done. Once that is out of the way. I can install the pinstock and start testing.
He can not do the grading due to rain. Yea, Now it rains ever week.

[Basil]

Today is the day. 
I have the last of the pipe on the truck. The four inch pipe.
I am taking the unit down to hook it up and see what the AC voltage will be with no load.
Hoping I can get an idea of the RPM and the open voltage from it.
The EMC is rated at 120 Volts @ 1050 RPM so I can figure it from this.
I only have two transformers so I can't test what I really need to test. Need one more ( 120 volt to 24/18/12 @ 8 amps )
I will test it rectified without the transformers.

Photos and more info later. AND some questions later.

[ghurd]

Basil,
Can you refresh our memory,

How far from the hydro unit to the battery bank?

What is the battery bank voltage?

I have a gut feeling getting the wheel RPM to match the ECM RPM to match a 3-ph transformer is going to be a nightmare.
G-

[Basil]

Dam thing timed out before I posted. I am a slow typer.
Had A nice post typed out. So now I will give the short version. I hate doing $#|+ twice in detail.
Next time I will do it in note pad first. All the time I need there. Killed the mood.
Tomorrow I will do testing. Today was harder that I thought to get just 100 feet pipe down.
For now it's still a 12 volt set up.
Around 150 feet to the battery bank is the plan.

[Basil]

Boy, I hope my Hydro works better than my post.

[12AX7]

Dam thing timed out before I posted. I am a slow typer.
Had A nice post typed out. So now I will give the short version. I hate doing $#|+ twice in detail.
Next time I will do it in note pad first. All the time I need there. Killed the mood.
Tomorrow I will do testing. Today was harder that I thought to get just 100 feet pipe down.
For now it's still a 12 volt set up.
Around 150 feet to the battery bank is the plan.

That's happened to me a couple of times.  found if you hit the "back" button and copy the text,  then sign in again,  open a new post and past your text.   Much easier than re-typing it.

[Basil]

Thanks 12AX7
I though I did back up hoping to find it. But no luck.
I was tired while trying to post and can't remember really what I did.
I am heading out now to install the last 20 ft of pipe and do some testing today.

[Basil]

First test is in.
Emc with this.
Nozzle 3/8 times 4. I know I could have got the voltage higher but this is what I stopped tuning at this voltage.
I will now buy a real runner. I think I can get it up to 120 volts ( Unloaded ) with a real runner and play with the nozzle size.
Then to get the transformers. Frist to see how high I can get the voltage.
I tried it Jerry rig rectified and it stalled. I did try my 36 volt DC motor set up.
I got 300 ma while hooked to a light and left it light in a tree on.

[Basil]

I worked a double shift and got a day off. Working 7 days a week now.
This gave me time to run and do some more testing. I tested with the same 3/8 nozzles. I need to make smaller nozzles to test with.
I removed the nozzles to have 1/2 nozzles and it slowed down. So bigger is not the way. I had a full 4 inch pipe to test with.
The lake is over full with all the rain we have have lately. The blue hose gave away to the 38 volt turbine. It blew out. It ran good for a week at least.
I got this to up grade from my 8 spoon runner. I seen 110 volts. Got a photo of 107 voltsThis is how I wired it to test
with a 40 watt and 60 watt light. The meter was on the other 2 legs. The 40 and 60 watt light pulled it
down to 78 volts. The 40 watt light pulls it down to 98 volts.
I will look for 3 120 to 24 volt transformers now. Can anyone tell me how many watts I may get. I was hoping for 120 watts but I think 60 watts is more like it this way
I may still try a water wheel. There is a lot of force behind 4 in pipe of water. I have 21 foot of head.

[jlt]

It looks like your making great progress.The most power will be at about half speed .of the open volts. your about right for charging at 48 volts. why don"t you Get some rectifiers. and hook it up to a 48 volt battery bank and measure the amp output.  Connect a 48volt inverter . and go to your house at 110 volts. using a #14 wire.

[Basil]

Jlt
Thanks for the reply.
I plan to run 6 wires ( #10 ) 150 feet to the battery shed. I think I would have a 4 volt drop with this at 150 feet. Not sure.
AC from turbine to shed. Then use 3 transformers to step down for 24 volt. Three rectifiers on the secondary side to charge battries.
I picked 24 volt because I figure the low voltage and voltage drop from everthing will get me near good 12 volt chargeing.
May be wrong but I am doing what I think will work. I look at it this way. If one idea does not work. I will try another.
I have 290 watts of solar to go with what ever I get from the Hydro. Plan to add solar as needed. Need enough power for some lights and run a frig.
Other things added later.

[ghurd]

Hey Basil,

Bad news first:  There is some kind of error in the math on that.

Good news:  The voltage drop will not be anywhere near that much.

150' one-way distance, #10 copper, 4V drop, is 13A per wire pair.

If each phase is running 13A at 60V, times 3 phases, that's 2340W total.   
I do not believe you can get that much power out of a 1HP ECM.  I think Jerry said 400W was about the max, maybe he had peaks nearer 500W.

==

Just a thought I will throw out there...
If you are going for 12V, may be worth considering splitting the 6 series coil phases into 3 pairs in parallel.

The 78V is unloaded.  The phases with the light bulbs will be putting less than 80V to the bulbs.

As it is in the light bulb test, I am guessing it is making somewhere considerably less than 80W.
Lets say it can make 80W.
At 12V (14.4V), that's about 5.5A total.
1.85A per phase.

Running 3 pair of #10 for 150', each carrying 1.85A is only a voltage drop of 0.57V.
3.25A per phase is only 1V.
Double my figure of 1.85A per phase (3.7A per phase) is only 1.14V drop.

3.7A running 150' in #12 is only a 1.8V drop.

ECM surgery is not for the faint of heart, but I myself would do that instead of buying "try this one and see" transformers in the current situation.

Well documented stuff Basil.  I love this story.
G-

[Basil]

Thanks Ghurd
I got the cutting the star from you and reading Jerrys stuff. If I ever get the time I may try to go further, but for now I will get what I can from this.
Be honest, I did not know I was doing math. Sorry.
Ok, So it will not hurt me to go to 6 # 12's 150 feet. That's good.
My next test will be with smaller nozzles. ( Smaller than 3/8 ) Hope to get the voltage up to 120.
I will have to figure out what to do from there.

[Basil]

I went back to the regural wiring. I got the tranformers and built a setup to set it to DC.
I tested it today. I'm happy.
I seen 187 volts AC with over 4 amps DC with the digital meter. At one time 7 amps on the old battery charger meter?? I know when set up I can get more than 4 amps. The battery I tested with was a 80 amp hour battery. It was fully charged when starting. Only one I had to use. The hydro made it boil.
I used the 1/2 inch nozzles. 187 volts ac with 4 +amps dc. I did get the bends out of the 2 inch hose's shown in the photos. The over flow is the extra water while running. I set the angle by having it hooked up and reading the highest reading. One nozzle at a time. Love having the ball valve on each nozzle.
Lot's of rain here so for.
I will put it all up and stop testing until I get the landscaping work done. I will put a bigger heat sink on the unit.
I think this is not bad for 20 to 22 feet head.

[Basil]

I have to give a special thanks to Nando.
He helped with the details that made this project work better than I expected.
Thank you Nando.

[Basil]

Something went wrong with the photos. I will try again.
This is a up date on my hydro project.
This is where I plan to put the hydro unit. As you can see while testing it is swampy, wet and snaky.
I needed  a dry and less snaky place for the unit. So I did this
In side, I shaped it to hold my turbine and drain the water out a four inch pipe. Hopefully keep things dry (er).
My Dad let me have a shed that I will use for a battery house and all the electronics. I moved and set it up yesterday. Man it was hot.
I put it in the best spot for the hydro, solar ( will be added) and easy assess to to get to from the camper. ( Camper not there yet )
This is where I put it. The camper deck will be right at the shed porch.

I hope  the Administrator will remove my botched post.

[rossw]

I hope  the Administrator will remove my botched post.

"An" rather than "the" - done.

[artv]

Hi Basil,....Very nice project ....It looks like you have a chanfer set in concrete (square)  to set the unit down into, .....I'm not sure??
If so I think it would be maybe better to make a circular chanfer (impression in the concrete) for the unit since it works on centrifical force....kind of like the way a water pump housing is ,....they put the pump wheel inside a circular housing......
Not trying to be cynical or anything ......Just trying to help if I can .....carry on and keep us updated ...thanks ......artv

[southline]

Hi Basil, Good project.  Did you modify the ECM motor at all? 

Adam

[Basil]

Adam   

Sorry to reply so late. I work a lot and I missed your post. All i did was go in and cut the y connection.
Now have 6 wires out to work with. Still working with the 3 wires as I got it. Out side the motor I tied the y back together.
Still have to try the other hook up Ghurd suggested. I tried 3 wires straight to rectifier's and it bogged down.
Other to try is run all 6 wires straight to the rectifier's. May work better than the 3 transformers.
Last test Best I can remember.
I had with transformers was 158 volts and 5.86 AMPS going into a 500 ah bank. Will have to adjust the nozzles again to get the
voltage back up to 189 volt or better. Last time I removed the unit and carried it home. Now I leave it in place. To much to adjust
when moved.
I'm out of work awhile so I hope to do more testing next week.