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Homebrewed Electricity => Hydro => Topic started by: skid on July 23, 2014, 12:06:03 AM

Title: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on July 23, 2014, 12:06:03 AM
I thought this site would be a good place to document my build and installation of a Poncelet wheel. I will assemble the wheel and then install it. This will be done in my spare time and will take some time due to the magnitude of the project.

Background:
I live on a fast mountain river. The river bank drops almost straight down at water level and water flow is quite rapid very close to the shore. I  measured 10 feet per second when water levels are low and when levels are higher, well it really flows fast.

This installation will be complex and innovative, and built with top quality materials for longevity. Something I have been planning for and accumulating materials for for years. The wheel will be built of mostly aluminum and stainless steel. The cantilever wheel supporting structure will be 10" diameter stainless steel pipe on a carbon steel stand on a poured concrete base. The generator I am spec'ing is a 5kw 50 rpm PM style.  I have machine shop and welding resources.

The design:
The wheel will be 10 feet in diameter and three feet wide. The 24 buckets are rolled aluminum and the wheel sides are aluminum as well. The wheel and bucket pieces are water jet cut for accuracy and ease of assembly. 8 aluminum angle spokes will be supported on a 6" stainless steel pipe with a 2 3/4 inch (turned down from 6 inch solid steel) stainless steel shaft welded on each end for the bearings. Weight is in the 1000 pound range.

Speed is expected to be in the 10rpm range and a 5:1 sheave and belt drive system will increase the speed to properly drive the generator.

The wheel is mostly designed and prepared for welding. There are still a few things that have to be determined, but I'll tackle those as things progress. I'll be posting pictures and commentary as I get started. Welding will commence soon!
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: electrondady1 on July 23, 2014, 05:22:03 AM
welcome to the forum  skid. photos, photos.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on July 23, 2014, 12:23:27 PM
The wheel will be built of mostly aluminum and stainless steel.

Beware the galvanic reaction between dissimilar metals.  Aluminum corrodes [relatively] quickly when bolted to any other metal unless you take steps to electrically isolate them.

Use really big shaft and bearing components, especially if it will freeze.

There's lots of good info here.

Thanks for sharing

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: MaryAlana on July 23, 2014, 02:42:59 PM
Aluminum and stainless play well together. if they didn't my antennas(amateur radio operator) would have fallen apart years ago.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on July 23, 2014, 03:43:55 PM
Some pictures(http://)
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on July 23, 2014, 04:12:10 PM
It's a bit of a learning experience to post pictures and having to reduce the size of the pictures...

Picture of wheel side with one bucket placed in weld groove.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on July 23, 2014, 04:19:46 PM
SS Axle and aluminum spokes. The bearing journals are 2 3/4 inches diameter. One bearing surface is longer for mounting the sheave
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on July 23, 2014, 04:25:20 PM
Bucket edge detail. The edge fits in the weld groove and positions it for welding.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on July 23, 2014, 06:41:46 PM
Aluminum and stainless play well together. if they didn't my antennas(amateur radio operator) would have fallen apart years ago.

Yes, aluminum and stainless steel are passive towards each other galvanic corrosion wise.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: southline on July 23, 2014, 07:02:31 PM
WOW....  looking great.  Keep posting your progress, I know it takes time.  Adam

Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on July 24, 2014, 09:21:53 PM
Aluminum and stainless play well together. if they didn't my antennas(amateur radio operator) would have fallen apart years ago.

Yes, aluminum and stainless steel are passive towards each other galvanic corrosion wise.
It's good to know you've considered the potential.   There's plenty of metal in that hub... keep up the good work

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on July 25, 2014, 03:50:54 PM
This is the river where I will mount the wheel. It is currently at low levels as the spring freshet has wound down. To maintain the delicate riparian ecosystem, I will hand excavate a small section of the river bank which is mostly stones interlocked with tree roots.

I will hammer in several pieces of 25 mil rebar as far as possible into the soil/rocks below the excavated portion and use the hammered rebar and the excavation to key in the concrete slab. Due to the weight of the  overhung wheel, I'll need a fair amount of concrete to keep it stable (although the wheel will be counterbalanced on the other side of the stand with weights). The slab will also be heavily reinforced with 25 mil rebar. When the river floods I don't want the wheel to wash downstream.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on July 25, 2014, 10:03:10 PM
When sinking rebar into the streambed, consider the accumulated aggregate below.  My experience on both sides of the stream was interesting; one side was pure undisturbed clay, and the other was so many big rocks and gravel, down too far to dig it all out.

The clay side of the dam still stands strong.   That which had 1" rebar driven into and lots of concrete poured on top, well, it's a few yards down stream.   I had intended to pump lots of water under it and scour out the gravel, then fill the voids with cement.  A series of big rains came before I could get to it, and now it's all destroyed.

I suppose if you had numerous heavy rebar driven deep enough, you could get by with building on gravel.  The problem I ran into was hitting big rocks and not even getting into the clay.  That, and I was driving it by hand with a 12 lb sledge, an arduous task at best.  Mechanical drivers are worth the rental fee, IMO.

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on July 26, 2014, 10:50:56 AM
I started digging the riverbank yesterday and it is very tough going. Very little soil, lots of roots and rocks. It's unlikely that I'll be able to drive rebar down as there are too many rocks. In fact after getting down 18 inches or so I am hitting the tops of some very large rocks that are too big to move by hand. I'll dig around those as best I can and expose as much of the rocks as possible.

I'll likely hammer drill into those large rocks and epoxy the rebar into those rocks as they'll work very well as foundation anchors. The rough surface of the rock tops will also work well to key in the foundation. I need several tons of mass to support the wheel and frame...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on July 26, 2014, 11:39:32 PM
If you had some way to determine how far down it was to clay, you'd have a better idea of how well your structure will hold.  It may be shallower than you think, but building on the aggregate is a recipe for failure.  If the large rocks are, say, in the ton range, then it should hold.  Anything smaller than a cubic metre is really just gravel to a storm surge.

Not to sound snooty, but you're building on sand, just that the particles are much bigger.  I'd look into some sort of mechanical driver.  Maybe heat-treat the driving ends of your rebar and send them right thru the rocks.   Put enough of 'em in (3 per sq ft) and it should hold.

Better yet, call a soils lab and do a core sample.  If you're gonna invest close to five figures in the project (don't grimace, you'll be there sooner than you think), a few hunnerd turtlebuks to find out what's down there will give you peace of mind when the hi flow comes, provided you built following the data of the test.

I just bit the bullet and rented a small track hoe and cleared out everything down to clay, on the good side.  Cheaper in the long run, for me.

Just sharing my (few) successes and many failures, skid...

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Frank S on July 27, 2014, 12:57:03 AM
when dealing with marine hydraulics the forces grow exponentially at a rapid rate. Shorelines constantly change, when the slightest obstruction is added to the equation.
 A series of steel piles driven several feet into the ground using a minimum of a 3000 lb hydraulic hammer mounted on a backhoe would be marginal I would think.
 Piles like 4" diameter oilfield drill pipe  driven 20 to 30 ft deep would be none too extreme.
 Also plan on lining the upstream bank for a few hundred ft with rip-rap.  laced together or interlocking would be best.
  If you plan on just pouring a footing then a temporary coffer dam driven 10 to 15 ft deep 20 feet or more out from where the excavation for the footing is to be placed would be a good idea as well
 these were my machines for working in calm waters
my first barge with a 48 ft tower and a 1,700 lb drop hammer
[attach=1]
My truck mounted unit for shoreline work, 1,400 lb hammer 15 ft of drop travel
[attach=2]   
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on July 27, 2014, 11:16:53 AM
Thanks for the advice Keith and Frank. I have thought about this in detail already and you are both correct.
 
The river bank is naturally rip rapped with small to large stones and very large tree roots help to bind it all together. An approx. 5 ton concrete slab keyed into the river bank will hold the wheel apparatus in place during normal flow conditions. When river flows exceed a certain level, say 1/2  bank full and 15 feet per second+ velocity, I will lift the wheel out of the water to avoid the sure destruction of the wheel. I'd be overdriving the generator well before that anyways according to my calculations.  If flows get higher than 1/2 - 3/4 bank full I will remove the entire wheel and support structure except for the stand and slab. This will have to be made easy since I don't really want to get too close to the river when flows are that high.

Rather than building for the worst case I will simply remove the wheel and apparatus when flows get too high. I am designing the wheel for somewhat easy removal and have a front end loader on my tractor for lifting up to 4000 pounds. Since I am embedding the slab (roughly 4' x 8 ' x 2.5' thick) deeply into the river bank it shouldn't get pulled into the river at high flows as it will be almost flush with the surrounding river bank. It also sits downstream of a massive tree that has been there for a century or so which should help dissipate the river velocity.

Of course this all depends on me being there when flows are high but that is fairly predictable as we get our highest flows on Oct/Nov. during the rainy season. A dam upstream helps to regulate flows  as well so flows rise somewhat predictably. My river floods  about every 10 years or so and almost every year flows get 1/2  bank full.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: MaryAlana on July 28, 2014, 04:51:17 PM
Sounds like building this on some sort of trailer that slides into a slot to hold it in place during operation is needed.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on August 05, 2014, 10:11:07 PM
Some progress. Got the spool gun on the Mig set up today. Welded the wheel side segments together and then put the buckets in the slots and started welding them to the side plates.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on August 05, 2014, 10:23:35 PM
Picture of welded segment. I stitched together several beads instead of one or two long beads to try to avoid distortion. The side wall material is only 1/4" thick so it bends and warps pretty easily.

Once I get the buckets all welded up and put the 3/8" circumferential side-stiffeners in, the wheel should be a lot more rigid. I should be able to tune any wheel run out with the axle spokes so it runs as true as possible.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: richp0169 on August 07, 2014, 11:01:52 AM
Impressive.

Will be very interested in seeing your results and a live video of this sucker running.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on August 07, 2014, 09:53:19 PM
I finished hand excavating the river bank to key in the concrete foundation. The excavation is roughly 4' x 8' and 24 -36" deep. I went down below river level so water has seeped in.

I'll hose down the sides to expose the rocks and wash any dirt to the bottom where I can scoop it out when the river level drops . I'll also cut any exposed roots.

There are two large rocks (one on each end) that I will drill and epoxy rebar into which should help anchor the foundation. I'll also try to drive rebar into the excavation in the appropriate spots to anchor and support the rebar mesh. Knowing how many rocks are in the river bank may make this very difficult. I may  have to pilot drill the holes with a 1" hammer drill.

 I have some 25 mil rebar bent into 90's which I will place in the corners. I figure I'll place the 2 rebar mats about 6" off the bottom and 6 " from the top of the foundation.

When I'm done pouring concrete the foundation will hopefully look like it's not even there. I will try to restore all the moss covered rocks around the concrete and make a nice path down to the slab.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on August 07, 2014, 10:10:20 PM
This is the stand that will support the wheel.  I will be putting a turn-table on the top so I can swing the wheel 180 degrees to remove the wheel. I need to get machining that up. I'll also put a coat of paint on it so it looks a little nicer.

I'll also install a large reinforced 12" pipe tee onto the turn table that the 10" pipe that holds the water wheel will slide into. I will put a counter weight on the opposite side of the wheel to balance it.

The pipe tee will also allow me to raise and lower the wheel by turning the 10" support pipe in the tee as river levels raise and lower. I'll have it counter balanced so any large trees or debris coming down the river that hits the wheel will temporarily knock it up and out of the water to prevent major damage to the wheel. That's the plan anyways:)
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on August 09, 2014, 02:59:19 PM
Impressive.

Will be very interested in seeing your results and a live video of this sucker running.

Thanks,

With luck I'll have it installed in the river sans generator by the end of the year.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on August 17, 2014, 10:21:38 PM
It's been too hot to do any welding. Dressing up in long sleeves/pants and welding when temps are this hot is tough, so that's been put on the back burner. I'll get back on it when it cools down a bit later on. I've been working on my shop in the mean time. Like most do it yer-selfers I always have several projects on the go.

The river level has dropped and there is no longer any water in the excavation. I cut all the rebar today and started putting in the lower rebar mat. I should get the rebar all in by the end of the week and then put the forms up. Once that's done I'll order the bagged premix concrete which will be mixed at site. I can't get a concrete truck anywhere close to where I want it...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on September 07, 2014, 11:29:03 PM
Update:
Haven't done too much since my last post. It's been pretty busy on the farm with watering and harvesting etc. I have managed to burn through 5 one pound rolls of aluminum wire in my MIG's spool gun welding the water wheel. I'm about 2/5ths done.

I'm going to start wearing a respirator as welding this much aluminum hurts my lungs. I'm not sure if it is the aluminum or the argon shield gas that is irritating them. I keep the shop door open when I am welding for fresh air. Trouble is flying insects sure seem to like the welding arc at night...

One of the issues I have to resolve is the distortion in the wheel's aluminum side plates  from welding. Despite tacking and stitching the welds there has been quite a bit of movement. Once I get it fully welded I may have to take a propane torch to heat and stress relieve the wheel and try to straighten it out as it spins in the bearings. Hopefully the side plate reinforcements and spokes will line everything up.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: XeonPony on September 08, 2014, 07:14:32 AM
that is critical in aluminium welding is to fire the piece to destress it, even with tig welding, if you can heat the whole thing up befor welding it helps to reduce distortion.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 06, 2014, 06:13:00 PM
Some progress... Finished welding one side of the wheel and flipping it over to weld up the other side. You can see the side plate reinforcements on the inner and outer diameters. The inner one will bolt up to the spokes with 1/2 inch bolts
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 06, 2014, 06:28:15 PM
I need to make a boom pole for my tractor loader as well. It lifts 10 feet and the wheel is 10 feet tall. To get it moved in a vertical orientation will require me to have a few more feet of lift.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Ungrounded Lightning Rod on October 06, 2014, 08:51:33 PM
Put something in the middle of the wheel and lift THAT.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 06, 2014, 09:16:43 PM
Good idea.

I suppose I could put the forks on the tractor and use those. I could put 2x6's on the forks to prevent scraping up the aluminum.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: 12AX7 on October 06, 2014, 10:26:36 PM
impressive!
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 06, 2014, 10:49:44 PM
I felt like a hamster today when I disconnected the lift sling. I used the blades like a ladder and climbed up, and when I disconnected the sling from the tractor the wheel started to roll away with me on the inside like an exercise wheel. Anyone watching would have had a good laugh... ;D
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on October 07, 2014, 12:26:26 AM
Gotta love progress.  I thought of your project when I came across this a few days ago.

Saw this 12' breastshot wheel at Metamora, Indiana.  About 40" wide, it produced 30 HP with 8' of fall thru an old canal lock, made of black walnut, most recent iteration 1991.

They no longer operate it; mill is powered by an electric motor now.

Interesting to see that "reuse" was in vogue even 150 years ago, when the railroad replaced the canal boat ca. 1860, as the canal lock provides the differential head for waterpower.

http://www.metamoraindiana.com/Hist_GristMill.htm

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 09, 2014, 10:32:27 PM
That's a nice old water wheel. Looks real heavy!!

I'm finished welding the wheel and installed the axle and spokes. I'll post pictures tomorrow as I finished up in the dark tonight. I'll be happy to put the spool gun away :P The wife will also be happy to get her parking spot back too ;D, as I had to weld up the wheel in the garage and not the shop (shop door wasn't big enough to get it out).

Next, weather permitting, I'll finish the rebar, form the pad, and pour the concrete before the river starts to rise with the fall rains. It's supposed to rain for the next few days...

I'll start on the stand soon as well as I have most of the materials. Still many other things to complete (cable trenching, grid tie inverter, purchase generator, etc. Overall I'm perhaps 20%-25% done
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 10, 2014, 10:48:06 AM
Picture of completed wheel with axle installed
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on October 10, 2014, 03:35:19 PM
Looking good, bro.

From your earlier post: "I will be putting a turn-table on the top so I can swing the wheel 180 degrees to remove the wheel."

You might want to consider inner diagonal bracing from left hub to right perimeter, etc. to mitigate lateral shear forces.  Should your wheel pivot on its own in high flow, the river has a good chance of bending the crap out of your angle-stock spokes. There's plenty of strength in normal configuration, but when flow hits it sideways, those side panels will pull real hard on the hub, and the spokes will take it all.

Just a thought

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 11, 2014, 10:39:30 AM
That's definately something to consider Keith. Rather than changing the wheel design I'll make sure the turntable locks securely in position. I was originally planning on 2 drop in pins in the turntable, but on second thought I will use bolts.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 11, 2014, 10:57:31 AM
I'm looking at generators now. Does anyone have any experience good or bad with Xinda Green energy?

http://www.xindaenergy.com/5Kw-50rpm-low-speed-Vertical-Permanent-Magnet-Generator-for-vertical-wind-turbine-p204.html

I've been in discussion with this company and they can change the frame of this generator to allow for horizontal mounting for my application.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 11, 2014, 11:05:34 AM
I'm not sure if this has been posted before, but I came across this online calculator to determine the output of an undershot water wheel. It seems to match up well with my calculations.

http://www.borstengineeringconstruction.com/Undershot_Water_Wheel_Design_Calculator.html

In fact I may go with a slightly larger 7.5kw generator based on the calculator. I can take advantage of higher river flows as long as the  torque requirements of the generator won't stall the wheel at lower river velocities.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Mary B on October 11, 2014, 02:47:33 PM
Chinese built snake oil a lot of the time. Be very careful of what you buy there because a lot of it is way over rated or is plain junk.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 11, 2014, 03:19:56 PM
Mary, do you have a recommendation for a generator supplier?
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 11, 2014, 05:33:29 PM
Foundation rebar work in progress (sorry for the blurred pictures). I have 25m rebar on 1 foot centers across the bottom @ 6 inches elevation and across the top. The top of the rebar will be 6 inches below finished foundation height. I'll have it done today, and if the weather holds I'll have it formed up by tomorrow.

Rule of thumb is to have the foundation weigh 3x machinery weight. I'll be in the range of 5-6x.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on October 11, 2014, 08:37:50 PM
Rule of thumb is to have the foundation weigh 3x machinery weight.

Is that static or dynamic applications?

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Mary B on October 11, 2014, 11:13:23 PM
I don't know of a good supplier off the top of my head. Chinese stuff can work but it often needs to have the dried yak fat they use for grease removed then replaced with a good synthetic. Bearings may need to be replaced with better ones. I would look for user reviews on anything you decide to buy and some of the people here who make energy with water could have good sources.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Frank S on October 11, 2014, 11:32:12 PM
  Having done many marine projects such as sea walls breakwaters & docks in the past,  so I am inclined to have some concerns about  your foundation
 In one of your posts you showed the water seeing into the excavation for your foundation.
 I fear that the foundation is going to be undermined over a period of time due to the close proximity of the waters edge
 I realize that there is rip-rap and a large tree upstream which should help to slow the inevitable process somewhat.
 I also understand it may have been difficult to get any large equipment to the construction site but even a small excavator with a hydraulic hammer to drive a few pieces of oilfield drill pipe into the ground as deep as they would go would have helped to act like the roots on the tree anchoring he foundation to the shore.
 Almost all slabs , roads or boat ramps that I have seen poured very near the water level,or in the water have shown evidence of undermining in very short times.
 the water contained in the soils of the banks of rivers actually flows along with the river just at a much reduced rate.
 Good luck with your project it is a very nice looking wheel so far.   
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 12, 2014, 07:13:42 PM
I finished forming the foundation today. Based on Frank's and Keith Turtles input I decided to increase the size. I can't really drive piles down as the river bank is mostly large rocks. The foundation will weigh close to 20,000 pounds of reinforced concrete (about 4 cubic meters). The wheel, frame, generator and counterweight will weigh in the neighborhood of 1800 pounds which is more than 10:1 machinery to foundation ratio which is very conservative.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on October 12, 2014, 09:37:49 PM
Increasing the weight of the slab is a good thing.  Now, can you offset the normal shear force in the downstream direction by cabling or otherwise tying off to an upstream tree or structure?  This way the slab will only need support vertical load, and not also need to resist the twisting action of the water trying to push the wheel downstream.

An additional cement structure may be needed if no suitable tree is available withing reach.

Just a thought, considering all the force vectors that might cause any movement/rotation of the slab, thus rapidly increasing the inevitable incidence of erosion.

BTW, what are you using to create head/fall across the wheel?  I don't recall hearing you address that yet

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Frank S on October 12, 2014, 09:54:21 PM
From what I understand he is going to rely on surface flow velocity, by undercurrent contact not over shot head fall
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on October 12, 2014, 10:31:48 PM
Oh yeah, that explains the open bucket design.

I should know better

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 12, 2014, 11:25:08 PM
I really don't expect the foundation to be undermined.The river has flown alongside that river bank for a long time. I'm not sticking out into the river as I have at least a foot of river bank between the slab and river. I will extend the wheel into the river with the nearest side at 2-3 feet away from the river bank.

Underneath the slab are large rocks, highly compacted and tightly interwoven with roots, smaller, rocks and dirt.On the very edge of the river bank are very large roots from trees that get moisture directly from the river. The roots won't wash away like sand or gravel and will hold everything together.

Of course I'll keep an eye on it and if necessary will add additional mass to the slab by tieing in to the river bank higher up.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 12, 2014, 11:37:55 PM
From what I understand he is going to rely on surface flow velocity, by undercurrent contact not over shot head fall

Yep, velocity makes head. Using the Borst calculator - 10 feet/second (my lowest flows) is equal to 1.55 feet of head (2.6kw), 11 = 1.88 (4.1kw), 12 = 2.25 (6.4kw), 13 = 2.63 (9.6kw) assuming 65% efficiency.

Water flow through the wheel at 10 feet/second is roughly 20000 gallons/minute. At 12 feet/second it is near double.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 12, 2014, 11:40:05 PM
Rule of thumb is to have the foundation weigh 3x machinery weight.

Is that static or dynamic applications?

Turtle

Dynamic
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Nautilus on October 13, 2014, 07:24:14 AM
Hi Skid - Re Generators - I am not sure of your plans for the electrical power produced, but wind generators are generally as low speed as you can get. I have used an African Wind Power PM generator and a Rebuilt 48 volt DC Jacobs on a water wheel - both worked well - There are lots of great designs out there if you want to build your own PM Generator. You will need to optimize the speed of the wheel for best performance by testing after installation - a variable field generator will help with this - as you can vary the load - If you go with a PM generator I suggest you use a MPPU to optimize speed and output- this works really well . Speed increase at the high torque you can expect is a really big deal. Check on your shaft size as you may just twist it right off - a heavy chain drive - 1.5 to 2 inch pitch diameter - makes a good first step - you can often find used horizontal gearboxes in the scrap yards - The last wheel I installed used an 8 to 1 increase gearbox. These two steps get you to the point where torque is low enough to use belts on the next step. As I recall the 12 ft breast wheel mentioned  ran on 7 ft of head at 12 rpm and produced 2 kw. We found that even steel buckets flexed a tiny bit each time the water struck them and after a couple of years we got breaks at the welds- you might want to reinforce the backside of your buckets with angle laid flat and skip welded. I like you idea of tipping the wheel out of high water - I'm not sure how you plan to do this with the generator and speed increase attached.There are photos of what high water can do to a wheel in the Gallery under US installs at (sorry, absolutely no links on your very first post: DamonHD). Very best of luck have fun. - Ron
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 13, 2014, 11:50:06 PM
Nautilus,

Thanks for your suggestions. I'll keep an eye on the buckets once I get operational. Please repost that link too.

The output shaft on my wheel is 2.75" so it should handle all the torque, and I will be using a 5:1 sheave set up to drive a 50 rpm generator. If necessary I can get a new sheave for the generator if I need to alter generator rpm,  but the one for the wheel won't change due to its large diameter (~5 feet) and cost.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on October 15, 2014, 11:54:55 PM
Nautilus,
Please repost that link too.

He can't.  Search nautilus water turbine.  Ron is based in Greenfield, MA.

The Niade model is what inspired my project

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Nautilus on October 17, 2014, 06:28:42 AM
Thanks Turtle - I'm not just sure what the rules are - should probably read up on it - do you have pictures of your Niade? Best Ron
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: DamonHD on October 17, 2014, 07:28:09 AM
Hi,

Welcome!

The main rule is to play nice, which you are, so all is good!

We don't allow posting of any links that might be interpreted as commercial until you've made ~50 posts and established that you are not a horrible SPAMmer, bot, evil space alien, or whatever.

And no mention of or links to OU (Over Unity / Perpetual Motion stuff) please: in this forum we obey the laws of thermodynamics!  B^>

Rgds

Damon
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 17, 2014, 07:40:38 PM
Edit - Drawing too small to see
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on October 17, 2014, 09:08:50 PM
do you have pictures of your Niade?

I don't have one yet, and my flow/head drop is at the bottom of the smallest Niade's useful range.

Half of the dam washed out last year, so I'm getting wind and solar together first before I head back to the stream

Turtle, slow
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 21, 2014, 07:06:21 PM
My son and I were planning to pour the concrete for the foundation this Friday. Looks like that won't be happening now.

The good news is that the forms haven't washed away yet. This may also indicate that the concern for erosion around the foundation will not be a problem. However, the river can get higher than this. In fact the forecast is for steady rain for the next 3-4 days so we'll see what happens.

The other good news is that at the current river flows of 13 feet per second, the calculator indicates about 13KW of potential power is available at 65% wheel efficiency. I may have to upsize the generator to 10kw 8)
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 22, 2014, 06:21:55 PM
The forms were floating last night with the rebar preventing the forms from floating away, were there this morning, but disappeared during the day. Hopefully the rebar is still intact.

The river is flowing very fast. I'm estimating 15 feet per second +

Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on December 07, 2014, 09:18:14 PM
 I'll have to completely redo the rebar and forms for the foundation. The hole I dug for the foundation filled with sand when the river flooded and the rebar is is listing somewhat so I might as well take all the rebar out and redo everything. The flood season is pretty much over so hopefully I'll be able to make a pour this winter sometime.

A 7.5kw 50 rpm generator has been ordered, the SKF pillowblock bearings with self aligning spherical roller bearings are here, the 12" diameter pipe for the cantilever arm should be delivered shortly,and the 5 foot diameter drive sheave is being built.The only major components remaining to purchase are the electronics for the grid tie.

I've been working on some other unrelated projects, but will soon start to weld up the cantilever arm that will carry the water wheel. A friend has provided some engineering input and came up with a very elegant solution for the pivot and counterweight.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on December 07, 2014, 11:04:52 PM
The flood season is pretty much over so hopefully I'll be able to make a pour this winter sometime.


Were you able to record some high-level benchmarks, and possibly get some accurate velocity readings during the high-flow events?  That data will be very useful when solving future problems

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on December 08, 2014, 11:48:36 PM

Were you able to record some high-level benchmarks, and possibly get some accurate velocity readings during the high-flow events?  That data will be very useful when solving future problems

Turtle
[/quote]

I did get the high level mark and a rough indication of velocity. At 15 feet per second I would be making close to 30kw by the Borst calculator so I definately would have to have the wheel out of the water to avoid damaging the generator and inverter, or perhaps just dip its blades in the river an inch or two to reduce efficiency and reduce output

We're supposed to get more heavy rain all this week, so I may have been premature saying flood season is over. This time I'll get some accurate feet/second readings over a measured distance.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on January 06, 2015, 10:16:00 PM
Well, December in the PNW was another month of heavy rain with the river reaching absolutely bank full. January has now started off with about 16 inches of snow followed by rain. I won't be working near the river for a while.

I've been doing some other projects in the meantime, but now have the the following items underway:
-Purchased two SKF spherical roller bearings and pillow blocks for the water wheel. For a 70mm shaft they are very pricey. I coated the pillow blocks with POR 15 so they won't eventually rust.
-Purchased 7.5kw PM generator. Now complete and being shipped from China as I write this.
-Fabricated 5 foot diameter drive sheave for water wheel to drive the generator. Final machining underway.
-Purchased sched 40 12" diameter x 20' long pipe for the cantilever as well as two 4"x 6" x 7 feet square tubing to hold the water wheel which will be welded to the pipe. I'll start fabricating that once I clean up the garage.
-Came up with a more sophisticated and better design for the stand to support the cantilever. It will be cast right into the concrete foundation instead of being anchored to the surface. Have purchased the materials for that and will start fabbing that as well

This is taking longer than expected, but then again all my projects seem to do that :)
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on January 08, 2015, 02:47:04 PM
Skid, your persistence is admirable.  Did the most recent high flow exceed that of early December 2014?

Did you place any benchmarks so as to determine if the pedestal foundation has shifted?

Keep up the good work!

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on January 08, 2015, 07:10:26 PM
Skid, your persistence is admirable.  Did the most recent high flow exceed that of early December 2014?

Did you place any benchmarks so as to determine if the pedestal foundation has shifted?

Keep up the good work!

Turtle

Yes the river was higher than the previous high water event. We received warning that the upstream hydro dam had to release additional water as they were coming close to their reservoir capacity.

They had a guy monitoring river levels just downstream of our place and released just enough to fill the river to bankfull without spilling over the sides and causing flooding. I'll have to say they did an admirable job as the water was within an inch or two of going over.

Based on that information I will make the two arms that hold the water wheel to the main cantilever pipe a bit longer so I can not only take advantage of the absolute lowest flows, but also tip the wheel out of the water during flood events without having to remove it. It appears the location for the foundation is somewhat protected by the trees along the shore line.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on February 28, 2015, 03:31:41 PM
Picked up my generator yesterday. 385kg, 7.5Kw, 50rpm permanent magnet. 850 pounds!

I'll start fabbing up the mounts and the rest of the cantilever arm soon, as I have most of the material on hand now. Weather is beautiful outside on the west coast right now...My grass needs cutting already!
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on March 13, 2015, 10:36:40 PM
Ordered the ABB Aurora 6000W grid tie inverter and 7.2kw wind interface today. I wanted the windy Boy 8000 but support components are no longer available. If I end up generating more juice than what the ABB parts can handle I'll have to double up on the equipment. If nothing else I'll get a good start with this and derate if necessary.

All of the expensive components have been ordered, and I have the material to fab almost everything else up. I'll have to trench my cable in as well.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on March 13, 2015, 11:51:58 PM
Good to see progress

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on March 16, 2015, 09:33:12 PM
Laid out the 400 foot power cable to the river, now need to rent a trencher. The cable is 3 conducter armored 6AWG as the generator is 3 phase AC.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on March 16, 2015, 09:37:47 PM
Picked up the large drive sheave today. 63 inches in diameter with grooves for 3 belts. I'll use a ringfeder to lock it onto the water wheel shaft
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on March 16, 2015, 11:01:16 PM
Picked up the large drive sheave today. 63 inches in diameter with grooves for 3 belts.

Cha-Ching $!$

You ain't shy about making this work, bro

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on March 16, 2015, 11:20:00 PM
Picked up the large drive sheave today. 63 inches in diameter with grooves for 3 belts.

Cha-Ching $!$

You ain't shy about making this work, bro



Turtle

I should break even in 20 years ;D

I used to spend money modding cars/trucks and eventually selling them for 1/2 of what I put into them not including labor. Building this is just as much fun and I may eventually break even some day...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on April 11, 2015, 08:23:15 PM
I've been busy doing other projects but spent a few hours preparing the embedded support column for installation. I welded a slip-on pipe flange onto the 12" diameter sched 40 pipe, and cut 8 holes to tie it into the rebar in the foundation.

The flange will mate with another flange which will slip over the top of the pipe and allow me to rotate the cantilevered water wheel support pipe in and out of the river. When the support pipe is in position I will bolt the flanges together to lock it into place for operation

The holes in the pipe/column will have the foundation rebar pass right through mid way up the pipe and on the bottm 90 degrees apart. I have inserted sample 1" rebar into the bottom holes and the top holes are 3 feet higher than those and will help form the upper rebar mat in the foundation.They will also prevent any rotation of the column.

Instead of using tie wire for the foundation rebar I plan to weld it all together to make it strong.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on June 07, 2015, 06:29:37 PM
Finally received my inverter and rectifier from ABB. Now to complete the project I need to:
- Get a several more pieces of steel cut
- Weld up the cantilever
- Redo all the foundation rebar
- Form the foundation
- Pour the foundation
- Trench the power cable
- Splice two pieces of cable
- Install the inverter
- Install the cantilever frame onto the foundation
- Install the water wheel onto the cantilever
- Complete the hydraulics for raising/lowering the wheel
- Go for a test
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: thirteen on June 08, 2015, 09:40:41 AM
Sounds like a test about 4:30-5. It is getting closer with each item done. It seems as if your prier planning is paying off. It will feel great once you let the water flow. Looks good from here. I'm sure you have covered it but if the splice will be under ground be sure to measure it off of two places if there is a problem years down the road. Plus a map of the lines running everywhere. Okay now but thirty years from now where was that line. Just an idea to play with or toss. 13
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: TDC on June 08, 2015, 12:14:07 PM
Very good idea about mapping the lines.  It would have saved my friend a lot of time!  Pictures or GPS locations are great also. I like pictures of the wiring and plumbing before sheet rock or paneling goes on a wall or ceiling.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on June 10, 2015, 12:26:32 AM
Pictures or GPS locations are great also.
That, and possibly a few 5/8" rebar 5' long (frost line) driven into the ground a little below the surface, along, beside the trench.  A compass will deflect to a sunken steel rod, that's how I find survey markers.

You'll get there

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: thirteen on June 10, 2015, 10:26:11 PM
Keithturtle
I've tried 3-4 time to find a corner marker. I'll try the compass sounds like it might work for me.  13
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on July 07, 2015, 11:51:41 PM
Keithturtle
I've tried 3-4 time to find a corner marker. I'll try the compass sounds like it might work for me.  13

You might want to rent a pin finder. Just don't wear steel toed boots when using it ;D

Got my "Raytech" splice kit today. After reading the instructions I don't think the splice will ever leak or fail. It has 2 heat shrinks for each conductor wire, one inner cover heat shrink for all the conductors, a metal ground for the spiral teck cable armor, and a heat shrink outer cover.

Also recently got my small 12.75 diameter generator sheave, Ringfeder for the large wheel sheave, and the three 8V-1500 belts. Just need a few more pieces and I'll have all the components. Just need to find the time now....
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on July 09, 2015, 10:38:18 PM
Just need to find the time now....
I feel your pain.  I've had five days off in the last six weeks.  I could probably pay someone to rebuild the dam. But that would take ALL of the fun out of it. (A new cement mixer sounds like a good investment...)

Turtle, slow
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 11, 2015, 07:28:33 PM
Had a bit of time this weekend. I made up the attachment arms for the water wheel, and fabricated the attachment point for the bearings. I put adjusters on each end so I can align the wheel once it is mounted. A little more clean up and paint and they will be ready to weld to the cantilever arm...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 12, 2015, 11:28:34 PM
I took a sheet of 3/8" plate today and started cutting out a few pieces. Shown are two reinforcements that will wrap around the cantilever pipe and help support the two wheel arms. I started on the generator mounts but ran out of oxygen...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 16, 2015, 10:24:49 PM
Generator mount side plates are cut from 3/8" plate. Again these fit over the cantilever pipe and are welded in place. Tomorrow I will cut the generator mount 1/2" plate top piece, and the slide plate that sits above the top piece of the generator mount. This slide plate will allow tensioning of the belts.

Other bits, pieces, and big chunks will arrive over the next week or so. Pretty soon the final welding takes place! I need to mock up a stand on dry land as well to spin the wheel on the cantilever to make sure everything works and the belts are aligned and tensionable.

I also note as I attach this picture that since I have over 50 posts my pictures can be much larger in KB, so future pictures will have more detail.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 17, 2015, 01:05:00 PM
One of several 3/4 plates to fit on the other end of the cantilever pipe as a counterweight to the water wheel and the generator. The waterwheel, sheave, and generator weigh over 2200 pounds so this needs to be balanced on the other side of the pivot.

In addition this will also equally balance the water wheel so I can adjust the height easily, as the water wheel will roughly sit a 5 o clock on the pipe, the counterweight will sit at 11 o clock so the pipe can rotate to adjust the wheel up and down in elevation. This will become more apparent as it is assembled...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on October 18, 2015, 08:20:09 PM
Looks good, plenty of weight in the metal there.  What about the base?  What is the ratio of hardware weight to the weight of the concrete you are attaching it to? And is that ratio significant? Will the cement handle the potential shear forces, or move on the bank?

Gotta love progress

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 20, 2015, 11:08:22 PM
I'm going to dig a bigger hole than I did previously when my forms washed away last year with the flood. The more mass the better. I'm going to embed the 12 inch pipe pivot post in the concrete, and fill the post with concrete as well to make it stiff and strong. It will be supporting more than 2 tons...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 23, 2015, 02:58:26 PM
Generator mount tacked up.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 23, 2015, 06:20:11 PM
Welded the wheel arms and the generator mount on the cantilever pipe...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 24, 2015, 02:07:16 PM
Top works mounted on temporary work stand. The cantilever boom pipe will slide through this piece and be permanently welded. This will allow rotation to move the wheel out of the water via a hydraulic cylinder mounted on the top works, as well as the ability to swivel on the two flanges to rotate the boom 180 to take the wheel on and off on the shore.


Just turn your head sideways to imagine this (can't get picture to rotate  :-[...)
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 25, 2015, 06:16:00 PM
Cantilever pipe assembled to top works. The topworks has a 36 inch stroke hydraulic cylinder (not connected yet) to turn the waterwheel arms down into the water or up into the air. Counterweights go onto the far right. I have to weld two pieces of angle length wise along the far right end end to provide an anti-rotational key for the counterweights, as well as a stop to make sure they don't go on too far.

 The counterweights will not only balance the weight of the wheel and generator on the opposite side of the pipe, but will balance the weight of the wheel in a rotational manner as well.

This was fun to put together myself with my tractor... ;)
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: MattM on October 25, 2015, 10:23:28 PM
You certainly enjoy heavy metal.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 26, 2015, 12:04:15 AM
You certainly enjoy heavy metal.

I like all music ;D

When dealing with water, components have to be very strong. The combination of parts are now too heavy for my tractor to lift. I'll need to crane it into position now...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: andreiandrei53 on October 26, 2015, 12:24:38 AM
Nice job! It looks pretty neat  ;)

I'm following this topic with great interest. Will it be running by Christmas?
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on October 26, 2015, 12:17:02 PM
I'll need to crane it into position now...

Yeah, no surprise there; you accepted the $$$ risk.  Glad to see a very real example of perseverance.  Not sure I like that long force moment hanging out that far.  Better double up (or more) on the cement base; better yet, pile drive deep into the bank and pour around that.   There be tremendous forces on that three-footed base at high flow

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 27, 2015, 05:53:41 PM
Not sure I like that long force moment hanging out that far.  Better double up (or more) on the cement base; better yet, pile drive deep into the bank and pour around that.   There be tremendous forces on that three-footed base at high flow

Turtle

It's 12 feet from the centerline of the pivot to the centerline of the wheel. It will hang quite a ways out into the water into flow that is undisturbed by the river bank to generate maximum power.

In regards to the long lever arm, I've been thinking of that too. I will tie in the foundation well into the side of the riverbank with a couple of deadman type anchors  with additional concrete and rebar.

Since I will have to make access for a crane by having to remove a few trees, I can get an excavator in as well to dig a larger foundation. I can also back in a cement truck so I don't have to mix by hand or pump it.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 27, 2015, 05:56:46 PM
Nice job! It looks pretty neat  ;)

I'm following this topic with great interest. Will it be running by Christmas?

Yes it will be running by Christmas, 2016 that is :D
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 27, 2015, 09:41:40 PM
This is the underside of the slide plate that will fit on top of the slotted plate attached to the cantilever pipe. The guides on the side of the slide plate will keep the generator aligned, and the jacking bolts will allow controlled tensioning of the v belts.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on October 29, 2015, 02:46:39 AM

Since I will have to make access for a crane by having to remove a few trees, I can get an excavator in as well to dig a larger foundation. I can also back in a cement truck so I don't have to mix by hand or pump it.

Crane, excavator, cement truck... cha-ching!$!

Like I said, I really, REALLY admire your determination

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: MattM on October 29, 2015, 06:17:23 AM
You going to hot drip protect the exterior of the steel or leave it to weather?
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Frank S on October 29, 2015, 09:33:10 AM
I don't ordinarily do this very much  But when it comes to the subject of galvanizing when folks think about having that done there are several things to be considered prior to any assembly or welding where other parts are to be latter attached.
 All hole tolerances must be relaxed to allow for the thickness of the process the same goes for welding assemblies. It is not so much that the process adds extra thickness but the zinc  has a way of not draining off or building up in areas that you least expect it
  Afterwards having to grind or re drill defeats the integrity of the coating.
 
 Other and often as good and sometimes better than hot dipping is simply painting with high quality paint.
  It is best to sandblast then prime then top coat but even this is not always possible.
  When sand blasting is not in the equation (which by the way should be done prior to hot dipping as well), there are products that convert scale and surface rust to serve as a base for primer. there are also products that will etch or remove most surface rust and scale.   
I've had great success with KBS products When possible I sand blast but other times I just use the KBS rustblast to remove the rust and scale then prime with their primer and top coat with their paints also for those areas where it is impossible to get paint into they have a product called cavity coater which is the same exact stuff as the Mil spec product used in cavities on military equipment and aircraft.
 for more information you can contact a very knowledgeable friend of mine through his web site. IF he doesn't know the answers to a question he will get them for you
http://kbs.justoldtrucks.com/

Frank S, I hope you don't mind! I changed the word from pain to paint :), though it can be a pain to paint sometimes ;-)
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: bcalmed on October 29, 2015, 11:25:48 AM
What about the possibilty of an upstream anchor - a large tree, for instance. Maybe with a laid-down sort of gin pole arrangement to allow for movement of the main boom.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 29, 2015, 07:25:23 PM
The wheel is aluminum and stainless steel, so no coatings required there. The carbon steel parts are being coated with POR 15 paint which I have found to be very excellent metal paint. I got some on my fingers a week ago when I was painting and I still haven't got it off ::). It does need a top coat as it isn't UV stable...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 29, 2015, 07:33:54 PM
What about the possibilty of an upstream anchor - a large tree, for instance. Maybe with a laid-down sort of gin pole arrangement to allow for movement of the main boom.

 Regarding the operation of the boom, it will pivot 180 degrees on the support post or stand, so I can put the wheel on land for servicing or removal. In addition, the hydraulics will rotate the boom so the wheel raises and lowers on the headworks as well.  Once I have it all assembled you can see what the final design is.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 29, 2015, 07:43:17 PM

Since I will have to make access for a crane by having to remove a few trees, I can get an excavator in as well to dig a larger foundation. I can also back in a cement truck so I don't have to mix by hand or pump it.

Crane, excavator, cement truck... cha-ching!$!

Like I said, I really, REALLY admire your determination

Turtle

Good thing my neighbor has a crane and excavator. He owes me a few favors ;D
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: bcalmed on October 30, 2015, 02:10:09 PM
What about the possibilty of an upstream anchor - a large tree, for instance. Maybe with a laid-down sort of gin pole arrangement to allow for movement of the main boom.

 Regarding the operation of the boom, it will pivot 180 degrees on the support post or stand, so I can put the wheel on land for servicing or removal. In addition, the hydraulics will rotate the boom so the wheel raises and lowers on the headworks as well.  Once I have it all assembled you can see what the final design is.

I meant as a less expensive substitute for driiing to the center of the earth for the post....
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on November 08, 2015, 08:31:29 PM
Having difficulty attaching pictures. I built the counterweight mount which is welded to the opposite end of the pipe as the water wheel. unfortunately I cannot attach pictures of it for some reason...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: DamonHD on November 09, 2015, 12:28:07 AM
Are the images big?

Remember that some users of this site are on dial-up, so there is a size limit.

Rgds

Damon
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: MattM on November 09, 2015, 06:26:31 AM
Shrink them down using something like Faststone Image Viewer.  You can down sample from 5MB to 100K pretty much by shrinking them down to 1024 pixel width at 95% JPEG quality.  You can drop JPEG quality and shrink them under 50K if you play with the settings.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on November 11, 2015, 12:02:22 PM
I reduced the pictures to 53kb each and get the following message which I also got previously:

Your attachment couldn't be saved. This might happen because it took too long to upload or the file is bigger than the server will allow.

Please consult your server administrator for more information.

Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: DamonHD on November 11, 2015, 01:16:22 PM
Hi,

I believe that some file area is full, but it is invisible to me.  (I see the errors logged but have no levers to pull to fix them.)  Someone else is on the case, but I don't know when this will be fixed.

Rgds

Dmon
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on November 15, 2015, 05:31:51 PM
 The anti rotation angles are being fit onto counterweight section of the boom. the counterweight is used as a template. The small pieces of angle on the end will be used to help align the counterweight piece to the main pipe when I weld it.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on November 15, 2015, 05:34:08 PM
The counterweight piece welded onto the main boom with one counterweight installed... The tapped holes in the end are for a cap which will secure the counterweights. Looking from the end one can see how it will equalize the weight of the wheel from a raising/lowering persepective, as well as equalizing the weight on either side of the center pivot.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on November 18, 2015, 08:51:38 PM
Having difficulty attaching pictures

This works well also

http://www.fotosizer.com/

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on November 22, 2015, 06:41:46 PM
Today I installed the wheel onto the boom. basically rolled it into position, then raised the arms up. I had to remove all counterweights but one to be able to manually raise and lower the wheel arms by hand.

Once I had the bearings bolted up I installed four counterweights which still didn't provide enough force to lift the wheel. Until I prepare a few more counterweights and install them I have to raise the wheel withthe tractor and support it underneath.

Once the wheel was raised I adjusted the bearing clearances on each side so the wheel was centered in the frame. I then adjusted the pillow blocks so everything was square.

Spinning the wheel I note I have 1/2 inch run out. I'll play with the spokes to take that out. I'll get a couple of tiger torches (500000btu's each) and spin the wheel and heat the aluminum wheel to stress relieve it first.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on November 22, 2015, 06:48:06 PM
Once side of the hub has a longer shaft to support the large 63" sheave. I greased both the sheave and the shaft and installed the sheave.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on November 22, 2015, 06:55:28 PM
The sheave's bore is machined so 1/2 the width of the hub is a few thousands of an inch larger than the shaft to align it square on the shaft. The other 1/2 is machined to allow a taper locking device (Ringfeder) to lock it into position on the shaft.

Once I install the generator and align both sheaves I'll lock both sheaves onto their respective shafts. That'll be next weekend's project if the weather is decent.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: thirteen on November 22, 2015, 07:31:52 PM
well the drive be completely covered? What type of belt( s ) drive will you have? Just wondering. 13
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: thirteen on November 22, 2015, 07:38:43 PM
I did not send this  but I did not see any key in the shaft for the pulleys. I may have missed it. 13
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on November 22, 2015, 08:28:43 PM
I did not send this  but I did not see any key in the shaft for the pulleys. I may have missed it. 13

There is no key on the big pulley/sheave. It uses a taper lock device made by Ringfeder of Germany.The generator uses a standard taper lock with a key on the shaft.

There will be 3 V-belts driving the generator. Each V-belt is a 1" wide 8V (8 for 8/8th inches wide) by 5600 long (5.6 meters). Because of the low rpm and high torque, this much belt is required.

There will be no cover over the drive assembly. At least nothing planned yet...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on November 29, 2015, 02:07:39 PM
I installed the generator and lined up both pulleys. I used the ringfeder to lock the big pulley onto the shaft (1st picture). Went to put the belts on and found I made a mistake in length. I need shorter belts and will have to return the longer ones. Anyways, I have a few more counterweights to prepare, and have to splice my power cable. That's likely as far as I will get this year. The weather here has cooled off and the ground is frozen. Once things warm up in a few months I'll trench the cable and dig a bigger foundation.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: hiker on November 29, 2015, 11:21:58 PM
What about a spring loaded belt tensionor.....their always handy to have...saves you from always having to move your motor up a notch...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on December 04, 2015, 10:58:21 AM
Anyways, I have a few more counterweights to prepare

OK then Skid, maybe not.  What about using the gen head as part of the counterweight?  Mount a few pillow block bearings along the support and run a driveshaft/torquetube/jackshaft; lovejoy direct couple the gen on the other side of the pivot.  Calculate the moments and you take lots of stress off of your perch, I would think.  Sure, you'll lose a little in friction, but it would be much, much lighter.

Turtle, losing weight
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on December 04, 2015, 10:01:31 PM
Anyways, I have a few more counterweights to prepare

OK then Skid, maybe not.  What about using the gen head as part of the counterweight?  Mount a few pillow block bearings along the support and run a driveshaft/torquetube/jackshaft; lovejoy direct couple the gen on the other side of the pivot.  Calculate the moments and you take lots of stress off of your perch, I would think.  Sure, you'll lose a little in friction, but it would be much, much lighter.

Thanks Keith Turtle,

For sure I have thought of that. It would also save on the generator front bearing not being side loaded with the belt. However the center pivot mount with the hydraulics will get in the way.

I had an engineering friend run a few calculations and the 12" pipe will be heavily loaded with the weight of everything as well as the twisting from the counterweights. I had to beef up the pipe in the area of the center pivot by inserting it into the heavy wall center mount pipe. But it will work according to him...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on December 04, 2015, 10:10:45 PM
What about a spring loaded belt tensionor.....their always handy to have...saves you from always having to move your motor up a notch...

That's a good idea, and as you say will save many small adjustments in the future and prevent damaging the belts from slippage. Once I get this thing working I may just do that...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on January 31, 2016, 05:47:32 PM
I installed all 11 counterweights, hung them on the boom, and installed the end cap. Also installed the belts, tensioned them and tightened up the generator mount. The only thing left on the boom assembly is to install the 12V hydraulic power unit so I can adjust the wheel elevation as the river level changes, tube in 2 grease lines for the wheel bearings so I can grease them from shore and give it a final paint job. I just used whatever metal paint I had laying around for now.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on January 31, 2016, 06:29:22 PM
I erred when I mentioned that V belts were mentioned in millimeters. :-[ They are measured in inches... I ended up requiring 8V3000 belts which are 300 inches long in circumference. Darn metric system here keeps messing me up... >:( That and my old timers...;D

There will be 3 V-belts driving the generator. Each V-belt is a 1" wide 8V (8 for 8/8th inches wide) by 5600 long (5.6 meters). Because of the low rpm and high torque, this much belt is required.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: andreiandrei53 on March 02, 2016, 03:07:50 AM
Hello Skid,

How is your project? Have you been doing some advancement from you last post?

Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on March 19, 2016, 07:47:42 PM
Andrei,

I've done a few things, but mostly background stuff as it has been relentlessly raining in the PNW until the last couple of days.

I purchased a12V hydraulic pump, fittings, and battery to raise/lower the wheel - now I need to determine how to mount everything as the pump will need to be protected from our heavy rains.

I've got most of my permitting in place from 3 levels of gov't - What a hassle that's been. I had to get a qualified environmental professional to write reports for both municipal, provincial and federal regulators. Luckily I know some people in the field so some of the work was done gratis, bit I still had to shell out cash regardless as they had to write very in depth reports (potential for killing fish during all life stages whether resident fish like trout or anadromous fish like salmon, erosion, loss of fish habitat, obstruction of a navigable waterway, installation of structures below the high water mark, construction access and hazards, etc., etc.).

The last couple of days I have been hand trenching and spliced the power cable that will connect to the waterwheel. I had to hand trench around my house, under a side walk, around all the trees and shrubs, and through two lockblock retaining walls. The hot tub felt good on my aching back last night... Now I can rent a power trencher and do rest to the river (approx. 80 meters).

Once the weather gets better I'll complete the waterwheel and start again on the foundation. I'm going bigger than before on the foundation as well. I still have to by a couple of disconnects, a 30 Amp thermal breaker,  and other electrical bits. I hope to have everything in place and running by the end of summer...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Ungrounded Lightning Rod on March 20, 2016, 08:20:42 PM
While you've got the trench open, lay some extra conduit.  (You can tie a cotton ball or a puff of tissue to a piece of twine and blow a pilot for a pull line down it later.)  Then, if something fails, or you want to add some instrumentation, you don't have to dig things up again.

(This is like the "Dark Fiber" phenomenon in telecom, where something like 95% of the buried fiber is "dark".  It's spares.  Most of the cost of a build-out is digging the trench around the country and back-and-forth across it.  While you've got it open, it costs you only a few percent more to lay a whole BUNCH of fiber (and several parallel runs of empty contuit), for the next century's expansion.  MUCH cheaper than only installing what you need for the next three years and then digging up the country again.)

Lay a water pipe or two, also.  If you have the flow for a poncelet you also have the flow or bit of head needed to run a hydraulic ram and pump river water up an arbitrary amount of hill for watering your lawn (or whatever else it's good for).  With the pipe in you can install the ram when/if you have/get the right to use the river water for some useful purpose (if you don't have it already).  (Meanwhile you can use the pipe to bring down water from your current supply for hand-washing, site cleanup, drinking at the site, etc.)

If you've already closed things up between the house and where the trench will start, just run the conduit/pipe/etc to the near end of the trench, cap it off, bury it, but make sure there's a way to locate it again later, if/when you have the time and circumstance to finish the run and use it for something.  And if you never get around to it, you're only out a little.  Conduit and pipe are cheap.  A trench is a terrible thing to waste.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on March 20, 2016, 11:59:50 PM
ULR you are absolutely right about laying in extra cable and pipe when a trench is open. This is my second trench to the river now; the first was for my 3" PVC irrigation piping which I'll probably hit when I'm digging my waterwheel trench ::) 

I won't run power out there (which I'll probably regret) but will run 6 wire instrumentation cable for a future camera and maybe a river level sensor. I will have 12V battery power  with a 20W solar charger to operate the hydraulic pump...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on April 14, 2016, 09:32:24 PM
I'm going bigger than before on the foundation as well.

Good thought; maybe even bigger.  Like the open trench, a few extra yards of cement with some more depth to the base will be cheap insurance, given the consequence failure will present.

The persistent power of high flow is hard to estimate, especially for extended periods of time.

Keep up the good work

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on May 12, 2016, 09:27:32 PM
I haven't posted anything new for a while, but have been getting the final pieces for my grid tie inverter wiring. I now have a 3 phase thermal breaker rated at 16.7 to 20 amps (generator output is 18), surge arrestors, a 30 amp disconnect, and some other bits and pieces. I'm waiting for a couple of Teck cable connectors from ebay and i'll finish the tie in to my breaker box. I'll wire it similar to this wind turbine without the single phase stop switch at the turbine to brake it...

Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: David HK on May 13, 2016, 04:53:33 AM
Skid,

Just a curiosity question, but have you got everything sorted out with the utility company for the grid tie arrangement?

Likewise, your insurance cover.

Dave
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on May 13, 2016, 10:39:19 PM
I have to meet the Canadian Electrical Code and must use UL or CSA components on the grid tie equipment which my ABB inverter meets. I have passed the wiring diagram in my last post by the local electrical inspector who has approved it. He will inspect it before going live. Doing that meets the criteria of my provincial utility. As far as insurance, as long as I meet electrical code I'm covered...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on May 29, 2016, 03:17:42 PM
Terminated the 6 gauge cable from the waterwheel generator into the thermal breaker today, and installed 1 of the surge arrestors in the wind box. Need to get another couple more tech connectors to complete the wiring. The photo shows how I have mounted the inverter and other equipment onto my house near the breaker box.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on July 05, 2016, 06:18:35 PM
Rented a trencher today and trenched the power cable for the waterwheel from my retaining wall to my property line. Due to regulations around instream work I cannot work below the high water mark until after August 15 when salmon fry are no longer in the river. I'll dig more into the river bank (with an excavator this time!) and prepare the concrete forms in late August. Hopefully I can have the wheel operational later this fall...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on July 05, 2016, 06:29:54 PM
Found my PVC irrigation pipe too! The trencher chain went right through it. >:( :o :P
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on July 12, 2016, 10:21:21 PM
Good to see progress. Before long the vision will be realized

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on August 20, 2016, 01:37:15 PM
I haven't done anything in a while as I have been waiting for the gov'ts blessing and license of occupation and water license. It looks like everything is a go, but the gov't regulators are trying to bleed me dry with all the fees associated with their approvals.

I have to pay about $750 for the application and License of Occupation (LOO) for my 3x2 meter concrete pad, as I only own land to the high water mark. The gov't owns the land from the high water mark down to the river. I also have to put down a $5k deposit to ensure that when I relinquish the land and hand it back to the gov't I will restore it to its natural state. The LOO is good for 30 years.  I also have to get commercial liability insurance with 2mil minimum coverage. Don't know what that will cost yet :-\

In addition I have to pay an annual fee for my water license based on how much water my wheel will use. Since it is low head I use lots of water. My license fees will be ~$750/year minimum. In also have to do an operational assessment for the first year of running, which means hiring a biologist to determine whether it is harmful to aquatic life.

All for 9.9 cents/kilowatt hour which is what the utility will pay me. I hope to average 2kw over the year so I will make a little over $2k annually. Discouraging... I should have went with solar... However I am pretty committed at this point and will see it through. Hopefully I can sell one of my kids for the $5k deposit to get things rolling again ;D
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: frackers on August 20, 2016, 05:06:20 PM
In addition I have to pay an annual fee for my water license based on how much water my wheel will use.

I would suggest that you measure how much water is in the creek upstream of the wheel and the same below and hence prove that you are not actually 'using' any water at all.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: george65 on August 21, 2016, 01:43:31 AM
In addition I have to pay an annual fee for my water license based on how much water my wheel will use.

I would suggest that you measure how much water is in the creek upstream of the wheel and the same below and hence prove that you are not actually 'using' any water at all.

I was thinking the same thing myself.
If you were " using"  the water, where would it be going or ending up?  If you installed 100 waterwheels, how much water would be removed from the river and therefore available for other people?

I thought the idea of a water licence was to keep control of the amount of water people were taking from the river so the thing wasn't sucked dry.
In the case of " what if everyone had a water wheel?"  Then the river still wouldn't be affected at all!

I realise this is a another revenue raiser but I'd be doing all I could to throw it right back at them.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on August 21, 2016, 11:47:47 AM
Thanks for the comments George and Frackers. You are correct in that I am not diverting water like a typical hydro installation would. However, I did try that argument and it didn't work with the gov't.

The person in charge of my water license did some pretty fancy math using a chord of a circle based on the submergence of the wheel and determined that my water wheel would use 38.5 million cubic meters of water a year. The residential water license fee is $0.02/1000cubic meters which doesn't seem like much but when you use 38 mil it adds up..

Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Mary B on August 21, 2016, 07:41:18 PM
I would be appealing that to the courts... if th ewater is being returned to the river it is not being used!
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: george65 on August 22, 2016, 02:38:34 AM
I would be appealing that to the courts... if th ewater is being returned to the river it is not being used!

I agree.
I never take the illogical decisions of one power tripper as gospel.  Over and over again in my life I have found that so many of these rules of large entity's are made up by the person you talk to as they go along.  Ask someone else and you get a totally different answer. Do not take the answer of one person without verifying it with another.
I would want to be seeing the rules and regulations for a start and then seeing if they even added up.

I would also be pushing the greenwashed, save the planet angle for all it was worth to your advantage. Start crying about them being anti green and environmentalism and you are just trying to provide renewable energy and that sort of line and it may be enough.

If you don't get anywhere, then I'd look at selling the amount of water you are supposedly " Using" to someone else who actually takes the water for irrigation etc. Let them measure how much you have consumed and then try to argue that in court.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: David HK on August 22, 2016, 02:51:55 AM
Yes, you could say that the water is not being used, but it is being harnessed. It is also not consumed by animal, bird or human in another context.

I suspect clever lawyers could find your case very interesting.

I wonder how massive dam owners get on with this sort of situation. Take the Boulder Dam and many others for example. I suppose they provide power to the public grid whereas you're providing power to your self. Could you share any excess power that you might generate?

Regards,

Dave in Hong Kong
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: joestue on August 23, 2016, 01:19:31 AM
Take the Boulder Dam and many others for example

they are grandfathered in, i really don't know of any new major dams that have been built anywhere in the usa, and many have been torn down rather than rebuilt.

we have "salmons" streams in washington state that are dry 9 months out of the year, and always have been as long as anyone can remember.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on August 25, 2016, 08:53:45 PM
but the gov't regulators are trying to bleed me dry with all the fees associated with their approvals.


Government cannot give money to anyone, but that they first take it away from someone else.

Too bad you must fund [...]

I like David's take on it

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: electrondady1 on August 26, 2016, 06:55:42 AM
quantitative easing is a term that every one should become familiar with .
they ran out of ideas on how to stimulate the economy. so in the U.S. and europe, central banks print money and give it to their friends.
well, they don't really print it. it just shows up on computer screens inside other banks.
it's helicopter money
of course, it is real debt and the next generation must pay it back . but not the banksters.
 they buy real estate.

 
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: 12AX7 on August 26, 2016, 05:40:48 PM
Hello!

Could you elaborate on  " The gov't owns the land from the high water mark down to the river"

Is this land that doesn't belong to you,  or are they saying that they control the (your)  land to the high water mark.

ALSO,  elaborate  on "high water mark".   How/where is that determined/defined?  Is the 'high water mark'  the same as the 100 year flood or 'flood plain?".

The highest point on my lot is still seven feet below local flood plain.

Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: David HK on August 27, 2016, 11:22:30 PM
This story is peculiarly interesting.

Let’s look at some more simple aspects.

A person owns a piece of land which includes a stream arriving at point A and leaving at point B on the property. But who owns the water? The water is flowing in at A and out at B and never stops. (Exclude freezing for the purpose of the argument). Flowing water is not really a tangible thing which makes it difficult to argue about.

Underground water which can be pumped up for irrigation on private land may actually source from other land so who owns it?

A river flows through a country and touches endless public and private boundaries. Who owns what part of the river bed? Who owns the water?

Other ‘rights’ associate with water such as fishing rights. Who owns the fish as they could be swimming anywhere – upstream, downstream and so on.

In previous notes the word ‘use(s)’ is mentioned as a basis for calculations. This has now become a simplistic word in a very complicated society. Renewable energy is not so new but more and more people are tinkering with it.

Perhaps this note will attract some interesting responses.

David
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: zracer on August 28, 2016, 11:39:54 AM
Very broad questions that would have different answers based on the location. What would be interesting is hearing more updates from the OP about his project.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: zracer on August 28, 2016, 11:52:19 AM
Thanks for the comments George and Frackers. You are correct in that I am not diverting water like a typical hydro installation would. However, I did try that argument and it didn't work with the gov't.

The person in charge of my water license did some pretty fancy math using a chord of a circle based on the submergence of the wheel and determined that my water wheel would use 38.5 million cubic meters of water a year. The residential water license fee is $0.02/1000cubic meters which doesn't seem like much but when you use 38 mil it adds up..

Just to use the water would cost $770 per year? There are many benefits to having a kick ass hydro setup like that. I'm curios, how much would your electric company charge you to use the amount being generated for the same period of time?
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on August 28, 2016, 09:51:05 PM


Just to use the water would cost $770 per year? There are many benefits to having a kick ass hydro setup like that. I'm curios, how much would your electric company charge you to use the amount being generated for the same period of time?
[/quote]

My annual electrical bill is around $2500/year

Could you elaborate on  " The gov't owns the land from the high water mark down to the river"

Is this land that doesn't belong to you,  or are they saying that they control the (your)  land to the high water mark.

ALSO,  elaborate  on "high water mark".   How/where is that determined/defined?  Is the 'high water mark'  the same as the 100 year flood or 'flood plain?".

My lot corner pins are located at the high water mark of the river bank. Apparently that is how they survey lots in British Columbia. The river is down the bank approx. 10 feet down and 25 feet away from the pins. That is considered Crown Land owned by the provincial gov't. For me to place a structure  on it I have to get a License of Occupation. The high water mark is basically when the river is bank full and ready to flood onto the flood plain.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on August 28, 2016, 09:57:52 PM
Still moving forward:

Today I completed wiring the inverter into my house panel. Need to get that inspected by the electrical inspector now.

The next item to complete is installing the hydraulic pump onto the wheel support structure. I'll hopefully complete that sometime this week as I have all the parts except the hoses which I'll make up once I place everything in position.

That's about as far as I can go until I get my licenses. Once I get the licenses I will form the concrete pad and pour it and install the wheel. Sounds easy ;)
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Bruce S on August 29, 2016, 06:49:13 AM
SKID;
Thank you for getting this back on the track you started with.
I was just at the point where I thought I "might" have to jump into my GM MODE britches and ask that posters please refrain from political conversations.

PS>>> Glad you're moving forward and getting things sorted out.

Cheers
Bruce S
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: zracer on September 29, 2016, 12:07:45 PM
Out of curiosity, what will the hydraulic pump be used for?
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 01, 2016, 05:53:54 PM
Out of curiosity, what will the hydraulic pump be used for?

The hydraulic pump will drive the hydraulic cylinder that will raise and lower the wheel in the water. The cylinder has a 3 foot stroke so with it located on the short end of the fulcrum will be able to raise and lower the wheel almost 10 feet. This large range of motion will allow the wheel to clear river elevations even at bank full+ flood heights.

I still haven't attached it  as I have been super busy at work and on my farm, but once I do I'll get pictures of it.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: andreiandrei53 on December 13, 2016, 06:30:05 AM
Hello Skid,

Just curious, how's the project advancing?

Cheers!
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on December 31, 2016, 12:16:19 PM
It's been two years since I applied, but I finally received my License of Occupation and my Conditional Water license which is the gov't's blessing to proceed with the project. Unbelievably there are still additional conditions which I must meet before I proceed.

I must send the "Water Manager" (which is the name of the gov't position which grants the license):
a) Plans for the works to be constructed signed and sealed by a professional engineer,
b) Schedule for the construction of the works,
c) Name and contact information for the appointed construction level environmental monitor,
d) Operational Environmental monitoring plan (OEMP) designed by a qualified environmental professional biologist to assess the impacts of the water wheel on juvenile salmonid out migration.

Once I get the wheel operational there are further items which I must complete within one year including:
1) Summary of the (OEMP)
2) Operating Parameters and Procedures Report (basically maintenance checks, flood management, etc.)
3) receive final leave of operations.

They sure aren't making things easy. The good news is that the licenses are good for my lifetime (30 and 40 years respectively) and are transferrable. I also have engineering and biologist contacts which I can use for hopefully reasonable costs.

Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: george65 on December 31, 2016, 06:01:49 PM
You certainly have more patience than I but can't say more than that for fear of being chastised for being " Political".

How much to you envisage this project saving you on power a year and what do you estimate the payback time on your investment?
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on January 02, 2017, 12:29:34 PM
I'll have a better idea of the payback once I get it into the water and see how it works. I'm pretty sure I'll cover my own electrical needs. How much I'll export is the question.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: andreiandrei53 on June 27, 2017, 06:32:48 AM
Hello Skid,

Any news regarding your project? The time really passes and i'd love to hear more recent news  :)

Cheers,
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on June 30, 2017, 04:49:05 PM
It's been a while, but I have some good news. The gov't regulators gave me the go ahead to install the wheel. The problem is they gave it to me too late in the spring and now the freshet is on with river levels so high I can't install my foundation. Once the freshet subsides, hopefully in a month or so, I'll complete the foundation and install the wheel.

It's unfortunate as river flows are high and steady and I could probably be making full production right now.

I still have a couple of things to complete. The hydraulic system for one which will take me a day, and the final underground splice on my power cable from the river to my house. I'm watching ebay for a 6 AWG armored cable kit so I don't have to pay retail for one. I hope to have those completed in July.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on June 30, 2017, 05:00:36 PM
The other good news for me is that the regulator has reclassified this project as a commercial project instead of a home generation project. Amazingly this will cost me only $105 in annual water license fees instead of the $1500 I was facing before. This may help return the cost of this before I die ::)
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: george65 on June 30, 2017, 09:13:47 PM

I don't understand how a commercial classification can be cheaper than a domestic one but I am glad their stupidity has finally turned in your favour.
The whole thing of charging you for using the water was ridiculous to start with.  They will come up with any BS to get money no matter how illogical the reasoning.

I look forward to seeing further updates and some vids of the thing when it is running.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Bruce S on July 03, 2017, 07:32:11 AM
skid;
You might go looking for Welder's cable.

There have been many posts on here about using that with 1/2 the costs, and same power handling abilities ;-)

Very nice project ! I look forward to the next set of posts too.
Bruce S
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on July 06, 2017, 09:44:25 PM
skid;
You might go looking for Welder's cable.

There have been many posts on here about using that with 1/2 the costs, and same power handling abilities ;-)

Very nice project ! I look forward to the next set of posts too.
Bruce S

Thanks Bruce,

I have enough cable, it's just that because of the total length (around 200 Meters), I have to install a couple of splices. I got the cable for free - three ~75 meter pieces left over from a underground power line project from work.

It's actually a bit of overkill as it is 5kv rated armored wire, and the Raychem splice kits are expensive if I buy retail. I've installed one already and just bought one from ebay for $100 so I'm good to go now.

I was going to mount the hydraulics that raise and lower the wheel on the water wheel frame, but have now decided to mount the hydraulic pump/battery and solar panel remotely on a nearby panel and run longer hoses to the hydraulic ram on the frame.

In addition I'm going to install 3 voltage/amperage gauges with CT's to measure amperage and voltage on each phase in the same panel so I can optimize the depth of the wheel for maximum output when testing and when river levels change. I've got an outdoor rated enclosure, and just have to install the components and make a frame to mount it on.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on July 12, 2017, 07:57:54 PM
Earlier this week I had an excavator clear a path to the river to allow cement trucks to get to the site to pour the concrete and to allow moving the works to install once the foundation is complete. One of the conditions of the water license was getting a professional engineer to design the foundation. The foundation will require about 14 cubic meters of concrete (3x3x1.5 meters) which is about two trucks worth, and will be keyed into the river bank as originally planned.

Today I started to mock up the hydraulics for raising/lowering the wheel. I am repurposing a nice water tight electrical enclosure for the hydraulic motor/reservoir, the battery and solar panel, as well as the electronics that will measure the output of the generator. I'm still waiting for my ammeters from ebay but can mount the motor/reservoir and battery as well as the hard piping. It will be a little tight, and if I have to add oil I will need to use a syringe as the fill cap will be right at the top. This is the only way I can get it to work and the enclosure was free.

 
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Mary B on July 13, 2017, 05:50:32 PM
Plumb a fill cap onto the top of the enclosure. Use a fitting with rubber gaskets so it doesn't let water in.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on July 22, 2017, 11:35:20 AM
Received my splice kit from ebay yesterday. Missing a key piece of course. Have contacted the seller so hopefully can get the right piece sent so I can complete the splice. Still waiting for my ammeters so I can complete my remote mounted enclosure. I've welded supports and mounted the pump and battery and most of the hard piping on the panel that gets installed in the enclosure.

Mary, Regarding cutting a hole in the top of the enclosure, I'll use a mechanic's syringe that are used to add oil to differentials and such.

Pic of the panel so far:



Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on August 16, 2017, 03:07:37 PM
Completed the last splice today. Organizing an excavator to dig into the riverbank. Finishing up my control skid as well. Getting closer...

Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on August 25, 2017, 08:40:21 PM
River bank is now excavated. The foundation is now to be 10'L x 10'W x5'T as designed by the engineer. There will be approx. 75000 pounds of concrete. So much for disturbing the river bank as little as possible. It is what the gov't wanted though, and I don't believe I will have any issues due to the size of foundation.

I've started building the forms, and have received 1000 feet of 20mm rebar. Once the forms are complete, I'll build the rebar cage. The engineer spec'ed the rebar mat to be every 10 inches Length x Width x Sides.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on August 25, 2017, 09:02:47 PM
While I had the excavator handy I had him move the water wheel assembly close to the river. Now I don't have to worry about my wife driving into it ;D
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on August 28, 2017, 02:14:27 PM
Forms are mostly up. I'll do more reinforcing as I am concerned with the river side of the forms. The other 3 sides can be backfilled  a bit to support the forms but the river side cannot. The back corners are chamfered to clear the counter weight.

I'll use some heavy stainless wire to go from one side of the form to the other to help prevent the river side form from failing.When I pour the concrete I will also order a low slump mix and do small lifts at a time, and not go crazy with the vibrator.

Now to start cutting rebar...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: MattM on August 28, 2017, 06:28:48 PM
If want to skin it, now is the time.  Some materials like beaded foam (EPS) sticks rather well to concrete.  You can use it like drivit to put a pretty pebble-faced exterior facing out and adhere it to the inside of your pour.  If done in panels you can move them easy enough.  The best part, the exterior sides can be made waterproof.  Looks much prettier than concrete.

Are you driving pilings to keep it from moving off the bank?  The mass of the wheel and the water's inertia is going to shift it over time.  Pilings and anchor wires/chains back to the shore bank I'm assuming are in your plans.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on August 28, 2017, 11:15:15 PM
Are you driving pilings to keep it from moving off the bank?  The mass of the wheel and the water's inertia is going to shift it over time.  Pilings and anchor wires/chains back to the shore bank I'm assuming are in your plans.

No pilings or other anchors. It will be keyed into the river bank  on the up hill side and the sides. The river bank is mostly large rocks tightly packed with dirt and tree roots.  At 10 feet square and five feet high with a weight of 75000 pounds I don't think it will go anywhere.

 In a couple years after back filling the tree roots will wrap around the foundation and help hold it in place (I'll throw some fertilizer in the back fill to encourage this). Even the 320 Cat excavator had to work at digging the foundation trying to break through the tree roots and tightly packed rocks.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on September 11, 2017, 01:13:21 PM
The pipe that supports everything will be embedded in the concrete foundation with only 4 inches below the pipe flange exposed. I'll also fill it with concrete when I do the pour.

The engineer has specified that anti rotation rebar pins be welded into place. Now to install it into the form...

Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on September 11, 2017, 08:11:12 PM
Used my tractor to drop the stand pipe in the forms. It just barely reached into the form with the boom pole I have attached to my tractor bucket. Wrestled the heavy pipe into position, leveled it, adjusted elevation, and trapped it in place with the 2x4's. Everything's hard when you do it by yourself...

Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on September 15, 2017, 07:32:47 PM
Rebar is now complete. I welded all the places where the rebar crossed so it is very rigid. The pipe stand is plumb as well.

I'll try to organize concrete for next week. I don't want to wait too long and have the river come up like last time.

Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: george65 on September 15, 2017, 11:50:29 PM

The time, effort and obviously money you are putting into this is amazing.  More like a small commercial construction than a DIY.

You should in all seriousness, you should get a brass plaque made to go onto the thing. It's going to outlast you even if you are in your 20's and future generations might just like to know something about this.
After everything else you are putting into it, a brass plaque would be a nice finishing touch and well worthy of such a construction. Might be good to give the local historical society some pics and info on the build. In years to come who knows, Might be some sort of landmark or point of interest in your area.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on September 18, 2017, 10:38:06 PM
George - What started out as a fairly simple idea has grown into a bit of a monster. My professional back ground is in the hydro industry so that probably influenced the way things have turned out. I suspect it will become a landmark on the Cheakamus river as the river is heavily used by kayakers and rafters.


 
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: george65 on September 19, 2017, 05:19:33 AM
I suspect it will become a landmark on the Cheakamus river as the river is heavily used by kayakers and rafters.

*sniff*

I have a background in sales, marketing and business.
I smell opportunity!

Put in a floating dock, build a cafe, power it from the wheel and promote the ship out of that and you can have all those Kayackers dropping in for a renewable brewed double decaff latte' on their trip.  Make it a stop off for the modern hippy travelers in their EV's and charge for topping them up with clean power. Put sprouts and vegetable juice on the menu and you are there.

Put in a motel while you are it and this thing can really start to pay off even if it only then generates a fraction of the power you will then need.
The greenies love to blow everything out of proportion so you'll just be catering to the market demand.  ;D

Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Bruce S on September 19, 2017, 06:51:28 AM

Put in a floating dock, build a cafe, power it from the wheel and promote the ship out of that and you can have all those Kayackers dropping in for a renewable brewed double decaff latte' on their trip.  Make it a stop off for the modern hippy travelers in their EV's and charge for topping them up with clean power. Put sprouts and vegetable juice on the menu and you are there.

Put in a motel while you are it and this thing can really start to pay off even if it only then generates a fraction of the power you will then need.
The greenies love to blow everything out of proportion so you'll just be catering to the market demand.  ;D
Not sure about the "greenies" in your part of the world, but our kayakers bring their own food/coffee and tents. they use hand built mini-rocket stoves or Alky burners that were built out of tuna tins or cola cans and weigh 1/5 what they can find in a store and burn cleaner(using twigs or rubbing Alky. (I have an Alky one )

The last thing our kayaking "greenies" want is a motel or someone brewing swill and would pay to keep that beautiful spot just the way it is.  (The hiking "greenies" do this on our Katie trail (which spans our cute little state ~250 miles)

Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: george65 on September 19, 2017, 02:28:17 PM

You must have the real explorer types.
Here we have loads of the yuppie type. Drive their V8 Suv with the kayaks on top from their inner city apartments to explore the outdoors and nature.
Double decaff Latte's and worm comfy beds with aircon and hot showers would have a HUGE market here and are exactly what a lot of tourist places offer and do well with.

Like  a lot of the save the planet types.
You don't actually have to be DOING anything effective, just buy the green products, make a fuss and say you are and it's all good!
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Mary B on September 19, 2017, 06:10:19 PM
Bet they would stop for a home brewed ale!
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Bruce S on September 19, 2017, 09:03:34 PM
Bet they would stop for a home brewed ale!
I certainly would  ;D.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Bruce S on September 19, 2017, 09:42:58 PM
Skid
I too have to say, that is some seriously awesome workmanship.
Those waters always that swift and clear?

I'd drop a line in those waters any time, might be too deep for brown trout but bound to be something nasty in there, pike, walleye,,,

AND thanks for letting us drift on this thread 
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: george65 on September 20, 2017, 04:07:36 PM
AND thanks for letting us drift on this thread 

Thanks for the detailed and constant updates and pictures.
Something to really be in awe of the engineering and effort you are putting into this. Really does push the boundary's of DIY whats for sure.
Do you think you might have it turning in the ater by Christmas?
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on September 20, 2017, 06:44:22 PM
Skid
I too have to say, that is some seriously awesome workmanship.
Those waters always that swift and clear?

I'd drop a line in those waters any time, might be too deep for brown trout but bound to be something nasty in there, pike, walleye,,,

AND thanks for letting us drift on this thread 

Steeleye, Arctic Char, Trout, Salmon are the main sport fish in that river. September is typically the lowest flows of the year as most of the snow in the mountains has melted

AND thanks for letting us drift on this thread 



Thanks for the detailed and constant updates and pictures.
Something to really be in awe of the engineering and effort you are putting into this. Really does push the boundary's of DIY whats for sure.
Do you think you might have it turning in the water by Christmas?

I sure hope so. Just got approval from the local utility for net metering. All I need now is the electrical inspection.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on September 20, 2017, 06:58:34 PM
Did I mention some concrete got poured today? 15.5 cubic meters of concrete went into the form which weighs over 80000 pounds. I could hardly sleep last night as I was worrying about the forms breaking loose and me spilling all that concrete into the river.

I beefed up the forms, especially on the river side. I wrapped 5 heavy duty ratchet straps around the forms as a safety measure, and used some 1x5 inch aluminum flat bar  to keep the form straight on the river side.

As we poured the concrete we (brother in law and me) tightened up on the ratchet straps as the concrete level matched the ratchet straps. This might have been a bit of over kill as I think tightening the straps caused the form to bow a little bit. Either that  or him going nuts on the vibrator :o

Gave the top a brush finish so it doesn't get slippery in winter or when it is raining. Filled the pipe with concrete too.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Bruce S on September 20, 2017, 08:31:11 PM
If the wheel doesn't work out , that could always be used as a ferry tie-up.
80000?! Wow! I've pushed a wheel barrow or 3 in my time, but not that much.
Is the weather gonna assist that the curing?
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on September 20, 2017, 09:04:48 PM
I was thinking I could sun tan on it in the summer ;D

I have a roll of burlap that I'll roll out on it tomorrow. I'll keep it wet for a week or so. It's cooled off here in the PNW so I'm not too worried about it drying too fast.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Coles on September 25, 2017, 02:47:05 AM
Great project!

I've read the thread with great interest, but apologies if my questions are already answered

Just a couple of questions.  How will the PMG work under partial flow conditions?  Does the PMG impose a load on the wheel to lower the RPM and extract the maximum power?  Does the efficiency fall off under variable flow conditions?

With regards the design of the wheel; you have open buckets?  With a poncelot wheel I thought the wheel worked on two principles... 1) the dynamic impact of the water jet coming from the sluice/flume box striking the back of the bucket, and 2) the static weight of the water held within the buckets as the wheel rotates.   Your wheel looks more similar to an undershot wheel, or even a crossflow wheel?

Thanks, and best of luck with this great project.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: DamonHD on September 25, 2017, 03:55:49 AM
If you want maximum power point tracking (MPPT), you may need to have the electronics do that for you, to get the most out of your variable flow.

Rgds

Damon
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: MattM on September 25, 2017, 08:19:31 PM
Only about a month before it should be ready to remove the forms.  Some people get impatient and crack their slabs because they assume it hardens in a few days.  Its more like 27-28 to reach 95% cure.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on September 25, 2017, 08:34:42 PM

Just a couple of questions.  How will the PMG work under partial flow conditions?  Does the PMG impose a load on the wheel to lower the RPM and extract the maximum power?  Does the efficiency fall off under variable flow conditions?

With regards the design of the wheel; you have open buckets?  With a poncelot wheel I thought the wheel worked on two principles... 1) the dynamic impact of the water jet coming from the sluice/flume box striking the back of the bucket, and 2) the static weight of the water held within the buckets as the wheel rotates.   Your wheel looks more similar to an undershot wheel, or even a crossflow wheel?


The PMG just makes less power at lower rpms. The faster the water wheel spins the more power it makes up to the generator's maximum of 50 rpm.

Poncelet wheels are undershot. He basically introduced curved blades to what were originally straight paddle blades. His blade design is a little more sophisticated than just a plain curve but for simplicities sake that's what I made.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on September 25, 2017, 08:36:27 PM
If you want maximum power point tracking (MPPT), you may need to have the electronics do that for you, to get the most out of your variable flow.

Rgds

Damon

I  gave the company that sold me the inverter the power curve for the generator so hopefully they set it up correctly.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Coles on September 26, 2017, 12:40:00 AM
With regards the design of the wheel; you have open buckets?  With a poncelot wheel I thought the wheel worked on two principles... 1) the dynamic impact of the water jet coming from the sluice/flume box striking the back of the bucket, and 2) the static weight of the water held within the buckets as the wheel rotates.   Your wheel looks more similar to an undershot wheel, or even a crossflow wheel?

Poncelet wheels are undershot. He basically introduced curved blades to what were originally straight paddle blades. His blade design is a little more sophisticated than just a plain curve but for simplicities sake that's what I made.
Ah yes!  Sorry, I was thinking of the Fitz Waterwheel design which is overshot.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on September 26, 2017, 10:03:56 AM
I connected the lift cylinder to my tractor's hydraulic system to fill it with oil, to bleed the air out of it, and stroke it a few times before connecting the cylinder to the frame. I then tested the raising and lowering of the wheel to simulate adjusting it for water level changes and removal of the wheel for maintenance. I raised the wheel fully to its highest position but was unable to lower it completely as it would hit the ground. Everything worked smoothly.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Mary B on September 26, 2017, 03:03:41 PM
I can't wait to see this in action! Whenever I pour a tower base(ham radio) I always waited 4 weeks for the concrete to set.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: george65 on September 26, 2017, 04:02:07 PM

You're going to need a MUCH bigger tractor to install that mechanism and remove it for maintenance if you ever have to !  :0)

Pics really give some idea of the size of the thing.  Sure is a lot of machinery and engineering for 5Kw! When one takes into account it will be 5 Kw 24/7 and fuel free, that puts a different perspective on it. Can you sell the excess back to the grid and if so, how much can you get per Kw there?

Definitely one of the biggest and best made DIY projects I have ever seen on the net.  Can only imagine what the control setup is going to look like.

Thanks for the updates and allowing us to follow the progress. Very interesting.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on September 27, 2017, 08:31:34 PM
Soon it will power the light at the end of the tunnel

Gotta love progress

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: SparWeb on September 27, 2017, 11:15:37 PM
So cool, skid   8)
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on September 29, 2017, 04:10:42 PM
 Thanks All!

The riverside level control system is partially complete. I built a roof overhead to protect it from rain/snow. Right now it is tied to a tree but will eventually be positioned in a better spot . The three LED readouts in the bottom will give me readouts of the voltage/currents of the three phases so I can elevate the wheel to where it will make the most wattage.

I used quick connects to connect the hydraulic cylinder to my tractor. I will keep these on to connect it to the riverside level control system as well. If the battery or something else fails I will always have my tractor for hydraulic back up.


Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on September 29, 2017, 04:17:18 PM
I removed the forms and welded the pivot cap on the top of the pipe. There is a large bolt  on the W/W frame that will bear on the pivot cap which will lift the works off the pipe flange (once the bolts are removed) and allow the frame to be rotated by hand. All the frame weight will be born by this large bolt when pivoting. I will grease the pipe above the flange to facilitate rotation but it should rotate easily as it is well balanced.

Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: george65 on September 29, 2017, 04:40:07 PM
The pic above struck me straight off.  I looked at the way you have made the frame to hold the roof and laughed to myself at the quality of it and your way of doing things. Even something as simple as this is done to a very high quality level and presented so nicely. If it had been me the control box  would have been sitting on a pile of bricks or a  plastic crate with a big sheet of tin over the top and I would have called it done.  :-[

I had a discussion with a friend earlier in the week. For years he has been trying to change the way I do things. This could be summed up in one sentence he said the other day, " Everything you do works perfectly, you can do what supposedly can't be done but it always looks like complete $#|+." 
Which is true.

I always put function completely over form. If it works as it should, job done, move on. My friend on the other hand is like yourself and it has to look good as well as work perfect. To him one is no good without the other although maybe he is a bit too far the other way and goes to way too much trouble but it always looks like a million and a half Dollars.  He was showing me a trailer he built for his Go kart the other day. It makes professional car racing teams look rough. Over engineered, over presented, every possible feature built in, the attention to detail is endless. If I had done it the thing would be strong, water tight and made from whatever I had lying round and the rust would still be on it.

 Seeing that pic of that simple bit of protection you built really drives his point home. It's also testament to the overall quality of this project and your outlook on things.

I am trying to improve my presentation in things I do which is a bit ironic as in my game I win a LOT of contracts because of the way I present my work.
For whatever reason, that has been completely abandoned in my DIY efforts but I am now conscious of it and am going to try to do things different.

You really are going to need a brass plaque for this thing because it is going to become a landmark of your area. :0)
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on September 29, 2017, 04:41:49 PM
To pass electrical inspection I also ordered a 175 amp breaker for my home panel to replace the 200 amp breaker. The panel is designed for 200 amps and theoretically I could exceed that rating with power supplies from the grid and the water wheel. I also need to order high voltage warning labels for the riverside panel and near the inverter to meet Canadian Electrical Code. At that point I will call the electrical inspector to get final approval.

Next week I will order a crane to install the works onto the foundation. At that point I can finalize the back fill of the foundation, position the riverside control skid, and run the power cable and hydraulic hoses from the control skid to the W/W frame.

Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on September 29, 2017, 04:46:34 PM
The pic above struck me straight off.  I looked at the way you have made the frame to hold the roof and laughed to myself at the quality of it and your way of doing things. Even something as simple as this is done to a very high quality level and presented so nicely. If it had been me the control box  would have been sitting on a pile of bricks or a  plastic crate with a big sheet of tin over the top and I would have called it done.  :-[


Hey George,

In my case it's probably a mental disorder. I drive my wife nuts sometimes.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 03, 2017, 12:26:33 PM
Well, today was the big day. I craned the waterwheel assembly onto the foundation. It was of course a lot heavier than what I anticipated. 12,500 pounds with the stand, and 11,500 for the final lift where we removed the stand.

Because it was so heavy we had to move it 7-8 feet at a time as the truck crane I hired could only boom it out so far before it reached its limits.

But we finally put it on the stand after I gave everything a good grease. I can easily turn the works on the pipe stand by hand even without the pivot bolt bearing down on the cap so it is pretty well balanced.

I couldn't resist dipping it into the water for a quick test run without any electrical connected. I did a few tests at different elevations and it turned the fastest when the side plates/blades were 1/2 submerged. I got 9 revolutions per minute at the current river speed which is slow due to low flows.

Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wstcw8NqXpw


Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: SparWeb on October 03, 2017, 12:59:12 PM
Congratulations on your Poncelet Wheel's christening ceremony  :)

That may be a very satisfying 9 seconds of Youtube Video for you, but totally unsatisfying for us who are watching, enjoying, and eager to see more!
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: DamonHD on October 03, 2017, 01:55:36 PM
Very impressive!

SparWeb, don't be greedy: let the poor man draw breath!  B^>

Rgds

Damon
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Bruce S on October 03, 2017, 02:45:07 PM
What a wonderful sound!! Kinda like a steamboat chugging down the river
Thank you for sharing!
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 03, 2017, 03:08:36 PM
Sparweb,

Once I finalize everything I'll do a more in-depth video. I still need to complete the trench for the electrical cable and hydraulic hoses, position the level control cabinet, do some more backfilling and final landscaping, etc.

Pretty happy everything went well today cause things were a little tense with the crane pushing its limits. Glad everything fit properly too!

Bruce, I'm a little surprised by the sound as well. 
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: SparWeb on October 03, 2017, 08:24:26 PM
Damon, I ain't greedy.  I'm jealous!

Skid, c'mon give'er!  (http://www.rigel.ca/gifs/anim_bounce.gif)
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: MattM on October 05, 2017, 04:55:16 AM
So when trenching that rocky soil do you use an air tool to dislodge the soil then loosen the rocks and hand move each one?

I'm curious because it likely is not just a simple task to trench in that location.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 05, 2017, 09:58:54 PM
So when trenching that rocky soil do you use an air tool to dislodge the soil then loosen the rocks and hand move each one?

I'm curious because it likely is not just a simple task to trench in that location.

I used a trenching machine to get close to the river bank as my soil is very sandy loam. Once I got within  30 feet or so of the river it became extremely rocky. I'm started digging the final section now and it is very tough going because of the rocks. I'm using a pick, a trenching shovel, and a 5 foot steel pry bar. It's quite a work out as some of the rocks are really wedged in there and weigh upwards of 300 pounds. If my buddy showed up with his little excavator I'd let him do it...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 06, 2017, 09:13:06 PM
Here ya go Sparweb!

Another short video of me lowering the waterwheel into the water with a few different angles as well. I've created a Youtube channel for this.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPfjoAQxvcQ

I'll create a few more videos as I get everything commissioned and tested.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Fordguy64 on October 06, 2017, 09:17:49 PM
THAT is so sexy...  8)
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: hiker on October 07, 2017, 10:15:11 AM
How's the tork on that..perhaps a bigger pully on the wheel..any readings yet ( volts ) ? Looks great.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on October 07, 2017, 08:16:56 PM
Mr Davids is a killjoy with his comments.  Great to see you've completed this phase; now on the the next

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: SparWeb on October 07, 2017, 09:31:01 PM
Yeah, NEVER read the comments on Youtube.
The comments here are enough!

Thanks for letting us see the "dry run"...  so to speak...

Of course, you're tossing around words like "commissioned" so you must be some kind of eggineer who takes his time to do it right and all. 
Looking forward to a proper immersion of the blades in the water and getting the true measure of the machine.  Happy to see it going so well so far.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Mary B on October 07, 2017, 09:34:09 PM
That thing is awesome! One of th emost ambitious projects here since the guy who designed and built his own oil bath chain drive gear case.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 17, 2017, 12:18:14 PM
Did some testing today. Making between 600-900 watts inverter output as the digital meter on the inverter is bouncing around a bit. The flows in the river are just slightly above the yearly lows according to the gov't river gauges so this is likely slightly above the minimum outputs I can expect to achieve.

I've got the wheel as low as it goes into the river. The water level is about 3/4 up the blade outside sidewalls currently.

I may have to adjust the ram pins so it can lower the wheel even further as the more submerged it is the more power it makes so far.

The forecast is for rain so the river level and flow speed should increase. We'll see where it goes...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: george65 on October 17, 2017, 03:35:25 PM

What will allow the wheel to generate the target 5Kw? Is it the height of the river or the speed?  From the vid it's hard to imagine the thing flowing even 3 times faster as from where I am, that's a pretty fast flowing river already!

There are always the armchair critics on YT. You can bet the less they have actually got off their useless arses and done themselves, the more critical and full of it they are. Like the seagull on your vid that wants to $#|+ on everything, when called out they get all indignant and claim the moral high ground.
 Wait till you start getting all the infernal and moronic "safety" comments.  The pet carry on of those that have no clue about the subject of the vid but want to say something anyway ( even if 20 other morons have said it before) and make themselves look important by parroting what they have seen other useless twits carry on with elsewhere.

Wish it would rain here. Haven't seen anything other than a heavy dew in at least 4 months.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 17, 2017, 08:57:00 PM
George, the river can really get moving. Right now it is quite slow compared to when it gets higher. For every foot per second increase the power goes up dramatically so it doesn't have to flow 3 times as fast. 10-30% faster doubles/triples/quadruples the output (proportional to the stream velocity raised to the fifth power if that makes any sense to you).

What I find interesting is that the wheel likes to be submerged. I'll experiment with this, but need to drill a new hole for the hydraulic ram pin so I can push the wheel further into the water.

Depending on how things go I can also increase the blade size and width. I can extend the blades another two feet in diameter and another foot wider as I left room for that in the design. I just didn't know what to expect.

 Considering that low flows like I am getting currently are typical for 4-5 months of the year (See attached river chart) I may opt to increase blade size/diameter as aluminum plate is relatively inexpensive and my time is free. We'll see how things develop...



Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: george65 on October 17, 2017, 10:13:08 PM
10-30% faster doubles/triples/quadruples the output (proportional to the stream velocity raised to the fifth power if that makes any sense to you).

Very interesting, I couldn't imagine it flowing proportionally faster as in 2-5X but 10-30% is a whole different thing that makes a lot of difference apparently.

Quote

Depending on how things go I can also increase the blade size and width. I can extend the blades another two feet in diameter and another foot wider as I left room for that in the design. I just didn't know what to expect.

I was wondering about width but thought that would give torque which you would have to change the gearing of the wheel to take advantage of.
If the flow you are seeing is going to be the average for 5 months of the year, would seem the time to swap cogs may  would be a little time well spent.
That's a LOT of work/ investment you have made for 900W, 22Kwh day.
I made 23 Kwh yesterday with my $1500 worth of inverters and solar panels, half of which are still lying flat on the grass as I haven't got them on the roof yet and the others are leaning against a makeshift frame of scaffold. 

You deserve a lot better returns than 900W after all the time, effort and cost that has gone into this project.  A little tweaking may go a long way.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on October 17, 2017, 11:20:01 PM
Back in post 141 I mentioned that I should have went solar :'(

I also mentioned I hope to average 2kw over a year which should be doable based upon the outputs at low flows.

I'll find that out soon as the rainy season is starting for the next couple of months.

I'll see how things go and experiment with the wheel depth a bit. If I can average 2kw year-round I'll be where I expected to be.
 

Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: george65 on October 18, 2017, 01:34:48 AM

Bah!!

Any Muppet can have solar, but to have what you do, that's REALLY cool and unique! I would really love to have a hydro setup but in practicability, I can't see that I ever will.

Seems the real hard work is done now and with just a little tweaking/ tuning, your wheel should be able to provide power well beyond your goal.  Now you get to do the fun part and see what really works for the thing and have some interesting learning experiences.
I'll bet a few little tweaks and improvements now will make a lot of difference to your output.

Certainly one of the best DIY projects I have ever seen!
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on November 08, 2017, 11:26:03 PM
I've been operating for a month or so now and have a few observations. So far we have had a very dry fall and in the last week temperatures have dropped below freezing for a few days which is unusual for this time of year. River flows have continued to drop.

Freezing - The water wheel doesn't like it. After a few days I had a huge buildup of ice on it, enough that it built up in the vee grooves of the water wheel pulley and caused one belt to fall off. The wheel itself got so heavy the hydraulics strained to lift it out of the water. Going forward, if the temp drops below freezing for any length of time I will pull the wheel out of the water.

Efficiency - I can see a few ways in which I can improve the efficiency of the wheel. The first thing I will do is close in the inner diameter of the blades. Water is flowing through the blades and out the middle of the water wheel which is definitely hurting the efficiency. If I close it in with some sheet aluminum I can see efficiency improving. Either that or increase the length of the blades towards the middle and increase the sidewalls. I have a couple other things I can do as well to make more power.

Wheel elevation in the water - I adjusted the ram so I could push the wheel lower into the water. Max power is made with water well up the side of the wheel rim. About 3/4 of the way up seems to be the best.

Power level - Flows should pick up in a few days as heavy rain is being forecasted. So far my max has been 875W according to my inverter, but flows have been really low for this time of the year, now dropping to less than 20CMS (cubic meters per second). Hopefully we'll get sustained flows in the 100-200CMS range which really speeds up the flow.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: MattM on November 09, 2017, 05:28:05 AM
So by closing in the spaces you're going for more of an undershot wheel?

Do waterwheels ever use skirts - like a tent over the wheel down to water level - to keep ice from freezing the wheel.  It would seem if the ice was kept out of the wheel, and ice could safely attach around the skirt in a controlled manner, then you could generate during freezing conditions.  I wouldn't want the skirt attached to the wheel itself for obvious reasons.  I was thinking more like a floating dock situation..  By doing this you eliminate the pucker factor when you wake up some morning and realize your weather changed on you.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: SparWeb on November 09, 2017, 01:29:04 PM
At first, I was thinking the same thing as Matt.  But then I started wondering about how the ice forms over the water and some problems became apparent.  Ice tends to grow from shore toward the middle, so it will reach out from your bank toward the wheel.  The churning action around the wheel will prevent ice from forming on the water's surface, but it will adhere to the sides and buckets of the waterwheel.  It will grow a rime over all of the surfaces that get splashed, making it heavier.  I don't see weight as a problem on your humungous beam, but the pivot point will be more stressed now.

Putting anything into the water upstream of the wheel, like a dock or a pier, will slow the water down and could also offer another spot for ice to get a purchase and grow on the surface.

Does your river usually freeze over in the winter?
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on November 09, 2017, 10:21:40 PM
The river doesn't freeze. The issue was the air was below freezing, and the parts of the wheel that don't contact the water dropped below the freezing point. Any water dripping from the buckets hit the freezing metal and froze to it.

The parts affected were the axle, the struts, the big pulley, and the arms that support the wheel. I had icicles 3 feet long hanging off the arms. The axle had ice 3 inches thick around it. I had to scrape the ice out of the pulley grooves to get the belt back on.

It doesn't normally drop below freezing here for any long lengths of time so I'll just lift it out of the water until warmer weather arrives.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: SparWeb on November 09, 2017, 11:12:19 PM
You sure ain't in Alberta, then.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on November 26, 2017, 04:49:08 PM
Spar Web,

Nope not Alberta, coastal BC. Still quite warm here today.

Welp, bad news. I've been hearing some funny sounds out of the wheel for the last few weeks. Saw the wheel shuddering a bit, thought belts were slipping so tightened them up along with everything else that had a bolt or nut on it. Sound persisted until a couple days ago when it was really screeching.

Pulled the wheel out of the water and pulled the outboard bearing cap - Full of water. Pulled the inboard cap - Bearing cage hanging out the side and the outer race blue.

I noticed that the wheel wasn't centered on the fork as well. The outboard bearing controls axial thrust. Put a pry bar on the wheel and found I could move the wheel back and forth axially on the bearings.

Since the bearing seals sit on the shaft and rotate against the housings it appears that when the wheel was thrusting back and forth axially the seals were losing contact with the bearing housings, then admitting water.

The Thrust retainer was obviously not tight enough despite me hammering it up with a punch and then locking the retaining nut.

I've ordered new bearings and will make darn sure I get my largest ball peen hammer and hammer the crap out of the thrust retaining nut so it can't move once I replace the bearings.

Right now the river is really flowing and I could make some good kilowatts too. Hopefully this was the cause of the oscillating power levels seen on my inverter.

Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: SparWeb on November 26, 2017, 06:19:10 PM
Aw ain't that just they way it always breaks: when it's really flowing the problems show up.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on November 29, 2017, 11:17:19 PM
Took everything apart today. I pulled the wheel off the frame and brought it to my shop for ease of working on it and to keep out of the rain as much as possible. Tractor could just barely lift it.

Had to use a couple of large pullers to get the large pulley and then the bearings off the axle. Everything was on tight!

Looks like water got into the bearings before it even got into the water. It sat for almost two years and judging by the rust marks rusted for almost that long. Now I know why people use wood or UHMW plain bearings as they are immune to water.

I cleaned everything up, scraped off all the rust and used a wire wheel to polish everything. I installed the new bearings being sure to really pack them with grease. Last time I put in the bearing company's recommended amount of grease. Because this is a very low speed application, this time I packed in as much grease as possible. And then hit it some more with the grease gun when it was assembled.

Tomorrow I'll bring the wheel back down to the river and hopefully get it up and running again.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: SparWeb on November 30, 2017, 12:21:32 PM
I hope so too
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on December 01, 2017, 10:14:16 PM
Got the wheel back up running today. Nice and quiet now.

I made sure to grease everything really well and made sure the bearing seals were contacting the housings properly. Hopefully no more water issues. I should plan on splash shields for the bearings, and a small roof for over the generator to try to keep it dry too.

I do notice that the generator output isn't jumping around as much as before. This indicates to me that the bearings were damaged right from the get go before, as output was jumping around greater than 300W at a time when I first put it in the water. Now it's steady within 100W.

River flows are down now again, but when they come up I hope to start generating some KW's. I maxed out at ~1500W before but that was with the wheel shuddering as the bearing was locking up. Crap, at the time I thought the belts were slipping and tightened them up more then which sped up the demise of the bearing...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: MattM on December 02, 2017, 01:20:39 PM
Could torque from the waterflow be twisting on the bearing, creating excessive side loads?
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: SparWeb on December 02, 2017, 03:55:03 PM
Good to hear.
And you've backed off the belt tension, too, I guess?
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on December 02, 2017, 07:46:54 PM
Could torque from the waterflow be twisting on the bearing, creating excessive side loads?

The bearing loading from the wheel is evenly balanced, plus the bearings are quite large for the application. The axial loading is minimal, while the radial load is low and low speed. The inboard bearing does have a higher load imposed by the belts, but compared to the generator bearing which so far has had no issues, is at least twice the size. The generator bearing is a single deep groove ball bearing while the waterwheel bearing is a double spherical roller bearing. From Wikepedia - Most spherical roller bearings are designed with two rows of rollers, allowing them to take very heavy radial loads and heavy axial loads.

Good to hear.
And you've backed off the belt tension, too, I guess?

Belt tension is what I would consider to be minimal considering the high torque generated by the wheel. I've always had it on the loose side so when the wheel was shuddering I thought it was belt slippage.

Before the wheel was always speeding up and slowing down, now it is running at a steady but noticeably slower rpm. The inverter is now allowing it to load up properly now it appears. I'll keep a close eye on it for now...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: hiker on December 02, 2017, 08:38:43 PM
With all that high torque...you could speed things up a bit...?
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on December 02, 2017, 09:02:09 PM
With all that high torque...you could speed things up a bit...?

I don't think it would make any difference power-wise. The inverter loads it down to make max generation. To make more power I need to create more blade area. I'm looking into that.

One thing I've noticed is that there is a bit of inefficiency from blade slap from the back of the blades hitting the water. It sounds like a bass drum. I'm looking into extending the blades another 2 feet in diameter, and widening the blades as well. I mentioned to my CAD buddy to see if the blade extensions can be shaped in a V as well to create even more surface area and to reduce blade slap as well.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: george65 on December 03, 2017, 03:02:20 AM

There is a lot written about belt tension but a mate who worked in industrial power transmission had a rule with it..... Only has to be tight enough not to slip and if it's obviously too tight, you need more belts so you can have them relatively slack.

Always worked for me. I don't like tight belts because of the loads and friction they impose. When pulleys and belts are in good nick and under stressed for the job, you can run them relatively loose and they still transmit the power fine.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: MattM on December 03, 2017, 05:39:49 PM
I know this is counter-intuitive, but what if you traded out the rigid buckets for flexible bands?  Kind of a mudflap supported on the sides.  As it strikes into the water it gives, but as it submerges in deeper water shifts pressure to the backside.  It should be much quieter.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: george65 on December 04, 2017, 04:09:38 AM

No doubt it's been done and there is data somewhere but the above suggestion gives me a thought....

What if the blades were hinged or pivoted?

They would enter the water on the thin edge, push back on stops when the water is driving them  but would probably pivot and pull out the water more cleanly instead of trying to lift it at an angle as they withdraw.  I don't think it would be quieter, probably clank and even squeak a bit  but possibly reduce some of the drag as the blade would I think lift out the water on it's edge rather than having water running off the back as resistance.

Wonder what such a wheel is called and how it is efficiency wise?
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Mary B on December 04, 2017, 04:11:26 PM
More moving parts = more points of failure... KISS principle comes to mind...
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on December 05, 2017, 12:55:50 AM
I thought extending the inner lip of the bucket inward with a curl, more like the Poncelet design, to capture more of the energy.  Once the flow  "hits the wall" the  velocity will play a bigger role

Maybe.

Thanks for sharing the saga

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: skid on December 05, 2017, 02:03:02 PM
I thought extending the inner lip of the bucket inward with a curl, more like the Poncelet design, to capture more of the energy.  Once the flow  "hits the wall" the  velocity will play a bigger role

Longer blades extending out further will do the same thing I'm hoping. If after adding longer blades and water still pours out the middle of the wheel I will seal the blades off as there is definitely lost energy there.

I was carefully analyzing the wheel's operation yesterday and noticed that the blade slap is actually the water hitting the front of the blade, not the rear. Sounds like the bass drum in a teenagers car stereo. My neighbor says he can hear it when he is near the river.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: keithturtle on December 05, 2017, 08:10:42 PM
My neighbor says he can hear it when he is near the river.

That's not a good omen.  Maybe you'll be successful where others have failed in the acoustic dampening arena

https://www.enoisecontrol.com/noise-canceling/

At least it is rythmic, should make it easier

Approach it with earnestness

Turtle
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: MattM on December 05, 2017, 09:41:33 PM
You can only grab so much energy.  The issue doesn't sound like how much energy, but rather what happens to the excess energy.  It sounds like you displace so much water it is audibly significant.  No matter how the bucket is shaped the laws of physics prevents any improvements to capturing the energy.  I'm thinking you want a solution that allows that other 33% you cannot capture to quietly continue downstream.  You want the rig to move with the flow displacing a minimal amount of water.  My intuition leans toward allowing 33% of the water to pass through undisturbed.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: joestue on December 05, 2017, 11:41:00 PM
can you make the buckets helical?
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: MattM on December 06, 2017, 04:59:31 AM
That would be like a massive redesign.  He's put a ton of effort into this thing and it's more or less an exercise in aesthetics.  I was thinking less buckets or sideways, but again a major change.  His new lip might actually bite the water quieter.  How would somebody manufacture a helical prop to fit his rig?
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: joestue on December 06, 2017, 11:17:02 AM
Doesnt have to be a true helix.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Mary B on December 06, 2017, 04:52:07 PM
K.I.S.S. !!!

Minor bucket mods yes, major redesign? That could take a year or more.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: SparWeb on December 06, 2017, 06:50:02 PM
Gotta take Mary's side here.  Skid is already doing well already.  No sense being greedy.
A functional energy-producing system is more important than tweaks that might (or might not!) improve its performance.

Skid, if you want to chase the noise and splashing problem any more, might I suggest something like a go-pro camera attached to a spoke pointed at the paddles.  Then you would see the whole water immersion process from the paddle's perspective and know for sure what's causing the slap, and if you should do anything about it.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: MattM on December 06, 2017, 06:56:48 PM
Parachutes with a hole in the apex are more stable than fully enclosed parasols.  They form a targeted amount of drag rather than attempting a full stop of the air.  I wonder if the solution is allowing water to pass through easier as the paddle strikes the top edge of the water.
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: Frank S on December 08, 2017, 08:09:10 PM
Almost sounds like a cavitation splash
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPfjoAQxvcQ
 just adding an inner shield may do some to quieten the blades at the same time improve output
Title: Re: 5kw Poncelet Wheel Project
Post by: clockmanFRA on December 09, 2017, 09:25:20 AM
I thought this might help.

Pics of a local undershot wheel, this stopped working in 1960. But being in France nothing gets moved about much.