Author Topic: gasifier update  (Read 7817 times)

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(unknown)

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gasifier update
« on: October 16, 2009, 10:30:50 PM »
I completed mounting the engine and fan. All the plumbing needed for the syngas to get to the engine is installed as well.

I did a test burn and was really impressed with the down draft function. I placed  and oven thermometer on the out side of the burner and temperature reached 400 degrees Fahrenheit  The cooler works very well.

I was able to place my hand over the exhaust port and felt warm syngas and water vapor condensed on my fingers. I have to add a filter medium to the last filter stage. Once  the water vapor is removed I should able to light the syngas at the test port. I still need to check the engine for spark and then I will try to start the engine.

All in all a very productive day.





« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 10:30:50 PM by (unknown) »

zeusmorg

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2009, 01:01:36 AM »
 I've been following this project, (well as much as the bugs allow) and I'm impressed, this is a very good way to utilize excess wood to convert it to usable power!


 Once you get done, I'd love to see the sizing on your components, engine, etc,and alternator.


 The only thing that does worry me about this project is the longevity of a small single cylinder engine. Most rely on the gasoline itself to help in lubrication. However if you're constructing it out of hand-me-down components, I suppose that isn't a big concern.


 I also think I missed what it is you're using for a cooler.


 I could also see a larger setup using a 4 cylinder engine, and a much larger alternator onboard.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 01:01:36 AM by zeusmorg »

wdyasq

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2009, 06:14:10 AM »
IF ... that fan were on the downstream side of the waste ball valve .... it would not have to pass the gasified stuff the engine will burn.


Ron

« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 06:14:10 AM by wdyasq »
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electrondady1

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2009, 06:20:22 AM »
ok oden !

this is  very interesting.

the smoke from a fire can run an i.c. engine!!

i had never heard of such a thing.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 06:20:22 AM by electrondady1 »

KilroyOdin

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2009, 06:22:11 AM »
Hi, the cooler I made out cookie sheets and muffin pans I bought from the Dollar store.  I alternated the holes top to bottom so the exhaust travels through a lot of sheet metal and cools down. This is my first attempted at building a gasifier. I am using the FEMA document and a lot videos on you tube as a guild.

If I can get the engine to start it will be interesting to see how long the engine will run before it has to be replaced.  I still think wind and solar is the way to go but in the north east there are a lot days with not much of each and with winter coming on a gasifier should be a handy unit to have on hand.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 06:22:11 AM by KilroyOdin »

KilroyOdin

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2009, 07:01:18 AM »
Hi during WWII there where over a million in operation in Europe. I have been hear about Bio-Mass gasification for decades but I never understood what they talking about. I stumbled across some videos on you tube, there are dozens showing the whole process. Syngas, wood gas, gasifier, gasification all are good for search words on the internet.    

« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 07:01:18 AM by KilroyOdin »

tecker

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2009, 10:21:13 AM »
The inner cooler will clog up fast but with $50 dollar delco (rebuilt ) you should be right there for charging . Looks good you can replace the inner cooler with a five gallon bucket full of water the hot smoke bubbles up through the water and Cool very well and the creosote can be used as preservative .I'll have mine going shortly and we'll track performance .Thanks for sharing
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 10:21:13 AM by tecker »

divemaster1963

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2009, 01:45:05 PM »
hey  there.

Great work. I'v thought about building one myself out of a 27 hp commercial lawn mower engine driving a 10000 watt gen from a old fire house gen I got for free. you should be ok on the lubercation of the engine. I work on small engines for a living. I woud recomend that you add ether slick 50 or mystery oil to your oil to add additional lubercation to the engine. May want to add that every 25 to 50 hours change the oil and fog the cylindar with a little wd 40 or a light veggie oil to engine will it is very warm after running to protect against rust from water vapors.

try adding a long pipe to your muffler to add more back pressure to the engine.


Keep us posted


divemaster 1963


P.S. If your engine does dies. check out the off brand engines at hrbor fr. they are cheap and they are made to run with gas that has ethonal add to gas. so they may last longer.  

« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 01:45:05 PM by divemaster1963 »

KilroyOdin

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2009, 04:01:48 PM »
Hi, the second day testing the gasifier has produced the same results. The burn is so complete in the fire tube all I get at the test burn port is water vapor.  I like your idea about moving the fan location. I am going to move the engine syngas supply line to the top of the second filter. It will accomplish the same time. I am also adding holes to the side of the fire tube so the syngas that is produced will not have to travel through the grate.  I believe that that it is being burned off before it even before it gets to the filters and cooler. I also noticed a lot water condensation dripping from a small hole in the bottom of the cooler. There is a lot room for improvement in the current design. Thanks for your input and best regards.  

« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 04:01:48 PM by KilroyOdin »

KilroyOdin

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2009, 04:11:32 PM »
Hi, the second day testing the gasifier has produced the same results. The burn is so complete in the fire tube all I get at the test burn port is water vapor.  I like your idea about moving the fan location. I am going to move the engine syngas supply line to the top of the second filter. It will accomplish the same thing. I am also adding holes to the side of the fire tube so the syngas that is produced will not have to travel through the grate.  I believe that that it is being burned off before it even gets to the filters and cooler. I also noticed a lot water condensation dripping from a small hole in the bottom of the cooler. There is a lot room for improvement in the current design. Thanks for your input and best regards.  

« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 04:11:32 PM by KilroyOdin »

dnix71

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2009, 07:45:27 PM »
This "syn gas" is mostly methanol, right? It would eat your carb up if it was in the fuel, but this method bypasses that.


Will burning methanol + whatever shorten engine life? It sounds like you would want to make sure the engine heats up thoroughly and the crankcase vent valve works correctly so the oil doesn't foul from blowby.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 07:45:27 PM by dnix71 »

KilroyOdin

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2009, 04:16:04 AM »
Hi, This is my first attempt.  I really do not know what will happen.  The videos I found on you tube show burning off the waste gas at a test port before starting the engine.  All I get at the test port is water vapor.

I am modifying the fire tube by add some holes above the fire grate, I am hoping that will solve the problem.  The information I found on what the exhaust gas is comprised of is H2, CO2,CO, with a very small amount of methane. If you check out Victory Gas Works, they have a lot videos describing the entire process.  

« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 04:16:04 AM by KilroyOdin »

RogerAS

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2009, 07:36:41 AM »
The water may be coming from the wood. If it is not really dry this can be a problem.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 07:36:41 AM by RogerAS »

frackers

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2009, 01:44:33 PM »
Syngas is the result of 'reducing' the normal combustion products with excess carbon. Normally the hydrocarbons that compose wood will result in (mostly) CO2 and water being produced but when that mixture is passed over the grate that holds lots of hot carbon (glowing charcoal) the oxygen in the water is split out and combines with the carbon to form CO (carbon monoxide) and hydrogen and the CO2 is also split by combining with some of the carbon to produce more CO.


Both gases are flammable and when mixed with air make an ideal fuel for an IC engine. You will need to advance the timing of the engine however as the flame front in the combustion chamber travels quite a lot slower with syngas and the air/gas mixture will require some careful (and constant) adjustment to keep the engine running.


Since the draft that keeps the gas being generated is from the induction of the engine, you'll also need to keep the revs up to maintain a good flow through the system.


 

« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 01:44:33 PM by frackers »
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mikeyny

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2009, 05:48:49 PM »
Hello,

          I have put a good bit of thouhgt to this gengas thing in the last few yrs. I have not yet made anything really practical, but, I have had a lot of fun and gained a good bit of experiance working with it. Keep on experimenting, use up a few old lawn mower engines and maybee you will be the guy to break through the barriers I could'nt. There once was a guy on this forum who went by the name of  "Nothin to loose", "spellin and typen are his strong points not electronics" if I remenber correctily.  a few years back, he was quite involved with this hobbie. If you could locate him , he may have a good bit of "real world experiance" or experiments to share with us all. Refresh us a bit ADMIN Just for old times ??


                                             Mike

« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 05:48:49 PM by mikeyny »

dnix71

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2009, 07:45:51 PM »
I wondered why this looked so complicated. Anaerobic cookdown of wood produces burnable gasses and liquids along with tar/coke. You just put wood chips in a sealed can and heat it. The vapors are condensed and fractioned.


Moonshiners run that kind of setup, but for a different "end product."


The liquid has to be distilled/fractioned for use and the coke tar can be burned for more heat. It's normally done batch mode, which wouldn't work here, since you want it to be mobile. A steam engine from just burning wood for heat would be more efficient, but that's a lot more complicated and dangerous.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 07:45:51 PM by dnix71 »

BigBreaker

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2009, 07:29:16 AM »
Steam wouldn't be more efficient.  This is internal combustion and uses far higher temperatures for a better Carnot limit.  Gasification does not lose too much of the energy in the fuel because two reactions - one heat producing and one heat consuming - balance out more or less.  You get something closer to regular old gasoline engine efficiency then you would think.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 07:29:16 AM by BigBreaker »

dnix71

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2009, 04:50:16 PM »
http://books.google.com/books?id=Bj-znLsKxyoC&pg=PA614&lpg=PA614&dq=carnot+efficiency+co
al+power+plant&source=bl&ots=onJep5JVfV&sig=HwipXcOvawrh5uXHsRyOvkyIznw&hl=en&ei
=q_TcStjVO4GN8AaGqK23BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAg#v
=onepage&q=carnot%20efficiency%20coal%20power%20plant&f=false


Coal power plant using multi stage steam turbines get 34 to 43% efficiency.


http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/152.mf1i.spring02/CarnotEngine.htm


shows the math on the Carnot cycle.


http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/06/revetec-20090606.html


Is an experimental engine that is supposed to get the same efficiency (39.5%). Regular piston gasoline engine efficiencies are usually reported to be in the range of 25%.


Gasoline engines get poor efficiency because the burning fuel generates a thermal pulse that heats up the cylinder wall rather than expanding the combustion gasses.


There is an alternative gasoline engine mentioned in another thread here at fieldlines that captured some of that thermal pulse by injecting water around the gasoline/air mix. When the gas burns it transfers heat to the water which flashes into steam. There was reported to be a 40% increase in efficiency, but it's a lot more complicated to build and maintain. There were also Corvairs that used water injection

http://www.corvaircorsa.com/tahoe01.html


Race car drivers do something similar by injecting water with methanol/nitrous, but that kind of fuel isn't made for the street.

« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 04:50:16 PM by dnix71 »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2009, 07:36:30 PM »
The main trick to making a steam engine efficient is superheating the steam after the water boils.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 07:36:30 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

divemaster1963

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2009, 08:21:29 PM »
the gasification is vapor ( vapor+debris+moisture). you are introducing it thru the air intake so the only problem may be that the vapor may react with the metal of the intake in the carborator.  you are basicly adjusting your mix with the amount of air to get the proper blend to burn. that is the hat trick. to much it will run very ruff and will effect your rpm and torque. to lean and you risk burning a hole in the block or the piston.  If you get it right balance then you just have to watch it run and be will to maintain a maintance program at regular intervals to protect and clean any reisdue build up. that where the additive and regular fogging the cylinder comes in
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 08:21:29 PM by divemaster1963 »

BigBreaker

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2009, 07:27:34 AM »
I was going to add a proviso that my comment about steam only related to small stationary engines using a single cycle. So here it is:


Combined cycle and multi-cycle steam can be really efficient but that is totally outside the realm of DIY backup power.  


Steam is great, great stuff!  It can be really efficient.  The best you are going to do with DIY is a basic boiler and piston setup, though... and that isn't particularly efficient.


Water injection is an interesting way of increasing power density in an internal combustion engine.  It might also increase efficiency.  I know WWII aircraft used it to some degree to increase power.  For a generator setup though, I would never use water injection.  The risk of corrosion and mineral deposition would be too high.  The whole point of a backup gen is that it should work, no?


I stand by my comment.  For practical DIY energy from bio-mass (wood) fuel, you aren't going to beat gasification into a otherwise standard internal combustion engine.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 07:27:34 AM by BigBreaker »

tecker

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2009, 07:30:08 AM »
You can see the components as the wood burns the methane is in the blue spectrum the yellow is methane hydrogen and carbon the orange is about 90% hydrogen . One of the neatest tricks is to fill a latex balloon with  cooled gas to start the process with as the blower can be turned off with good engine vacuum .
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 07:30:08 AM by tecker »

BigBreaker

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2009, 07:35:58 AM »
Most people running a gasifier will the producer gas through a cooler and sawdust filter to catch the water vapor, particulates and any tar that made it through.  The gas can be pretty clean and dry by the time it hits the engine.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 07:35:58 AM by BigBreaker »

frackers

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2009, 03:13:09 PM »
I keep seeing mention of methane - you must have a different sort of woodgas in the USA to the rest of the world. All the systems I've seen use incomplete burning, not heating woodchips...
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 03:13:09 PM by frackers »
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dnix71

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2009, 04:22:16 PM »
That's why I think they must be burning methanol and carbon monoxide.


If it was practical to convert raw carbon into fuel, refineries would be doing it. Coke and tar isn't worth much.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 04:22:16 PM by dnix71 »

frackers

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Re: gasifier update
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2009, 08:47:56 PM »
Methanol (wood alcohol) would break down at the temperatures that the syngas is produced at - I think you are thinking of methane. According to wikipedia the typical composition of syngas is

    * Nitrogen N2: 50.9%

    * Carbon monoxide CO: 27.0%

    * Hydrogen H2: 14.0%

    * Carbon dioxide CO2: 4.5%

    * Methane CH4: 3.0%

    * Oxygen O2: 0.6%.

the nitrogen content being so high (originally 70%) due to the atmospheric air not taking any part of the reactions as it is drawn through the system.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 08:47:56 PM by frackers »
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KilroyOdin

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After 5 days of testing
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2009, 01:55:12 PM »
I tried fabricating a downdraft stratification gasifier based on the FEMA design.  I was unable to reproduce their results. Based on the FEMA information if air (O2) is allowed to enter the reaction area below the grate the exhaust does not convert back to burnable vapors and remains CO2 and water vapor.  

I am taking a few days to reconstruct the reaction chamber and fire tube to insure that it is air tight.

I did notice that when I turned off the fan I was able to ignite the smoke venting out the top of the unit.

The FEMA design is using a 6 inch fire, I am using a 4 inch fire tube.  There are many videos on youtube showing that their design works.  I am viewing the lack of success as a good learning experience and my welding skills are improving.  If after re-fabrication the unit fails to produce usable syngas I will attempt a sealed top Imbert design, which is also explained in the FEMA report.

« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 01:55:12 PM by KilroyOdin »