Author Topic: Outdoor Wood Furnace  (Read 11870 times)

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Scotth

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Outdoor Wood Furnace
« on: June 22, 2005, 01:59:15 AM »
Has anyone had a look at,or perhaps built one of the heaters found on the Deb-Design website?I just got a quote for $9000.00(Canadian)to purchase an outdoor wood furnace(furnace only!)This guy claims he built one for under $2000.00.I could buy a lot of solar with the change!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 01:59:15 AM by (unknown) »

richhagen

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2005, 08:13:03 PM »
The ones I saw had a rather sophisticated control that allows you to adjust the burn rate by controlling the air flow.  It had an insulated burn box, and if you pulled out only a little heat it would burn for a day and a half.  The control was managed by the temperature of the water/antifreeze returning to the 'shed' via an insulated loop from the house and computer circuitry to control the burn rate.  Much like this one:

http://www.leadertelegram.com/homefront/021804/PDFs/08_HF_2-15-04.pdf

I wish I could put one in where I'm at but the zoning won't allow for such a device.

Oh, here was that company:

http://www.centralboiler.com

I think I first learned about them from someone on the board here.  

I am not sure how one would go about building a failsafe control system for a homebrew version, you would have to keep from overheating the water in your primary loop.  Rich Hagen
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 08:13:03 PM by richhagen »
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windstuffnow

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2005, 08:36:31 PM »
  Be carefull buying those... some are quite inefficient.  A friend ( neighbor ) purchased one a couple years back and he goes through about 15+ cords a year with that thing.  I installed an add on in the basement of my home and it burns about 6 cords a winter.  Seems like he spent around 7000 for the system.  


  The radiant heat you would normally get from an inside burner is wasted to the outside plus whatever losses are in the lines to the house.


  Just my opinion, but I think its a waste of money and time spent on cutting wood...

« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 08:36:31 PM by windstuffnow »
Windstuff Ed

nanotech

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2005, 09:01:46 PM »
Central Boiler is just up the road from me here in Minnesota.  They had a bit of a boon when they first came out with thier outdoor wood furnaces, but people are slowly beginning to realise just how much wood these things use and thier sales are falling off.


Up here where winters get brutally cold (4+ months in the -20oF) and they have to burn an obscene amount of wood to generate enough heat to warm a house.  They are terribly inefficient.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 09:01:46 PM by nanotech »

harrie

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2005, 10:16:56 PM »
Yes Nanotech I agree with you, I live just a few miles from you by Deer River Mn, and I have built a wood boiler using Pipe line Pipe, 40 inch water jacket, and 30 inch firebox with forced air draft. I heat my house, garage, and hot tub, and burn about 25 cord a year. Im getting to old to go out and get my own, so now buy it from the loggers. It cost me about 500 dollars for a 12 cord load. this is high, but it would cost me alot more for gas. And yes, you have to handle it too, I just cut the logs in three chunks, and throw them into the stove. I dont split anything. The one thing I like about it, is that it will burn about anything,
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 10:16:56 PM by harrie »

ignesandros

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2005, 12:25:10 AM »
I'm unfamiliar with the messure of a cord, but based on the price that's a good deal of wood. It seems to me that despite insulation, outdoor furnaces would radiate a great deal of their heat to "heat the outdoors". If you could manage to contain the furnace in a manner that it would circulate its radiant heat in the house, it would prove more efficient. If you wanted to leech every ounce of heat from the furnace, you could even pipe the flew-gases through a radiator to trap the heat in a liquid where it could be transfered back to clean air. Depeneding on the level of complexity, you could even send air heated thusly into the furnace, mixed with cooler are at different ratios depending on what temperature you want to burn at. A hotter intake temperature would result in an increase in burn temperature, something highly desireable when stoking the fire right after adding large pieces of fuel as well as excellerating the heat transfer as your furnace goes from a more idle flame to a state which it is roaring in full use. Fuel consumption could be controlled by valving both hot air and cool air intake and precision in temperature could be attained in this mixture.


-Andrew

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 12:25:10 AM by ignesandros »

electrondady1

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2005, 05:21:21 AM »
a wood stove is nice but impractical for me in my little house. an outdoor hot water system would be good to get rid of the wood thats accumulating around here. before i start welding, i need a control for outgoing water temp. tied to the circulating pump. (no steam please) and perhapse exaust gas temp controling air flow.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 05:21:21 AM by electrondady1 »

walsdos

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2005, 05:45:10 AM »
Andrew has it summed up fairly well. In many cases much heat is lost up the chimney,little is usually lost through radiation . In order to attain reasonable efficiency good combustion is essential , a good indicator of this is NO SMOKE. Firebrick lined fireboxes help in this respect, in fact some experts state any furnace lacking a firebrick combustion chamber is not worth contemplating. This is not a plug but look up the Wood Doctor site to see an efficient gassification design. Only problem is it's small size for someone needing a long burn time but it does give a good idea of what's needed.

   A cord is 128 cubic feet and if you are buying wood heavy hardwood has the greatest heat per cu. ft. There is little difference in heat from a ton of DRY softwood and the same weight of DRY hardwood . Many outdoor wood furnaces were sold on the basis that they would burn green wood which, generally, they will but at a prodigious rate. Any one considering such an option should do some serious homework then talk to a lot of people using them. Google Outdoor wood furnaces.

Good luck

Walsdos
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 05:45:10 AM by walsdos »

jasonweir

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2005, 08:46:11 AM »
I been running a Central Boiler for 2 years now and 4 other buddies have had theirs for between 2-5 years.  A couple things you have to remember, you cannot compare these things to inside wood stoves.  Every one of us switched from inside stoves to the outside furnace. They do burn more wood and here are some reasons why.


  •  The unit we all bought is a 500K btu unit, its designed to heat multiple buildings, I would agree that using it to heat 1 house makes it a bit inefficient.  But once I add the garage I don't believe my wood usage will increase much.  This inefficiency does cause it to use more wood.
  •  I control the house temp with a thermostat, this means that my house stays warm all night.  This mean it burns more wood.
  •  I heat all my hot water with it.  This takes more wood as well.


This past winter I burned almost 15 cord, at first glance this may seem like a lot of wood but take these things into account


  •  almost 3/4 of the wood I burnt was not seasoned hardwood.  Most of it was green softwood, pine + hemlock.  Try burning that in your inside wood stove.  Even in the coldest part of winter this stove would go 24 hours on a filling of this "junk" wood. I would bet burning seasoned hardwood would cut wood usage by 1/3 bringing the 15 cord back to 10.
  •  remember this included all my hot water as well.  My wife likes to fill her whirlpool tub 3 or 4 times a week at almost 200 gallons at a time.  Never mind the daily showers and all the clothes washing.
  • The stove at its longest portion will take a  54" log and a 36" log at its shortest. This means you less time working the wood. Cut everything to 36" and stack it up.  I only split the stuff I cant not lift.


Think about this, it takes me about half the time to cut and stack 15 cords for my stove at 36" and no splitting than it did before cuttingsplitting and stacking 10 cord of 18" stuff for the inside stove.


These stoves are the person who has their own supply of wood, If I was to buy my wood all split and delivered it would be cheaper to burn oil.


Jason Weir

Chichester, NH  

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 08:46:11 AM by jasonweir »

DERFMOOSE

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2005, 07:12:45 PM »
     if you live in farm country you might try a bale

  burner, straw seems to be a nuince (at least here)

  they will heat a large shop on one bale a day.

  hs tram usto make a bale bioler heck them out


                        Fred

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 07:12:45 PM by DERFMOOSE »

thumbnail101

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2005, 08:00:57 PM »
   What I did last winter was used a inside

air tight stove with a blower system built

in it., The pipes that blow the hot air out

the front ,I made a rectangle cover for it. then

just cut a hole in the side of house and

made my own insulated pipe,to go through the

wall, and piped from it to the rectangle box in

in the front of stove...The blower intake is hooked

up to a hood that sittes ontop of the stove

so its picking up hot air, before it gets

to the blower, when its cooking good, thats

all I use to heat my house, have the blower

on a thermostat,when it get cool, the blower

shuts off,and no cold air blows in house..


  Still not really finished yet,when wind

is blowing,and fire is out, it blows cold

air in the house for now i just manual

put a plug in the hole to stop wind, saved

me alot last winter on oil bill...


Oh the main reason for putting outside

was small kids, and insurance......


Thumbnail..

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 08:00:57 PM by thumbnail101 »

RobD

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2005, 09:27:26 PM »
My house is small and tight. I burn about 2 cords a year but sometimes I turn on the oil when I'm tired and don't want to light a fire. I can cut and stack a cord of wood in a day and a half with no trouble and my land has all the wood I need. I expect if fuel prices keep going like this next year I'll burn just wood.

I've seen the outside furnaces at the Fair and my neighbor about a mile away has one but he runs a tree service so he always has wood.

Boy I'm glad I built a small house. I'm hoping to build a big mill just to supplement the heat but I don't think I'll be able to get to it this year.

I figure I'll just run it to heating elements in a large oil tank in the basement and whatever heat I get will filter through the house.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 09:27:26 PM by RobD »

Chagrin

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2005, 11:27:09 PM »
A cord is a 4'x4'x8' stack of wood.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 11:27:09 PM by Chagrin »

libra

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2005, 07:42:04 AM »
I had looked at the outdoor stove and the cost was about 10,000. I ended up with two pellet stoves for $3000 each and an annual heating cost of $600 per year. One bag of pellets will last 30 hours and these are 85% effecient, no cresote etc. Yes I have access to lots of cheap wood but the outdoor stoves don't burn effeceintly, create a smog and as such are banned in many areas. I have heard that poor design and circulation causes the legs to rot out after a new years.

Look carefully!


Libra

« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 07:42:04 AM by libra »

whatsnext

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2005, 10:41:05 AM »
I have a pellet stove also and like it a lot. I've been using about three tons per winter and I'm paying about $117.00/ton for oak pellets. I'm pretty sure the output is about 8kbtu/pound. Hopefully I'll get all my heat by this winter with a combination of the pellet stove, some solar thermal, and by burning waste veggie. I see used pellet stoves for sale all the time. Their owner buy two or three bags of pellets at a time and then the stove doesn't get used. It may be worth a look.

John......
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 10:41:05 AM by whatsnext »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2005, 02:07:27 PM »
How are pellets-by-the-ton delivered (loose?  Pick 'em up in a dump truck?  Bags?)  And how do you store them?


As part of my just-finishing-up siding replacement I'm planning on replacing a denalli 1000 series pellet stove with something different - and would like that to be a current production pellet stove.


Nothing wrong with the Delalli - except it wasn't installed properly and was only used once or twice.  (Like once when we bought the house, just to prove it worked.)  Discovered it was installed wrong once the walls were off, AFTER I'd run a new circuit for it from the phase that gets the genny in power outages.


I'd have just reinstalled it properly except for a couple things:



  1.  Where it is the stack has to go straight out the wall, and there's a stud that would have to be moved.  Pain in the butt but not prohibitive.  But:
  2.  According to the local pellet stove dealer, Denali's been out of business for several years and replacement parts aren't available.  So when something finally breaks if I can't figure out how to do it myself it would then mean replacing the stove.


That wouldn't be a problem if it were installed in a fireplace feeding up-the-chimney or free-standing.  But with it in a pseudo-hearth hopper/surround up against the wall the pipe must go out through the wall, and a replacement would have the pipe in a different place, resulting in a patch job on the new siding.  This house is one we'll be selling when I retire, in a place where such an oopsie in the otherwise pristine siding might affect the offer price.


I'm thinking of putting it up on ebay or the like, to try to get a chunk of the price for its replacement.


Suggestions welcome.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 02:07:27 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

libra

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2005, 02:22:31 PM »
Pellets come in 40lb bags and we usually purchase 1.5 ton skids 75 bags per skid. The bags are heavy plastic and somewhat waterproof but the skids are bagged as well with a large cover like farmers silo bags.

They are easy to handle but if wet turn to mush and are useless.

I have one  stove feed into a lined chimney and the other one goes  out the front wall with 3" double  walled, insulated pipe sections. If a stud is in the way just reconfigure the pipe with a couple of elbows. Just try not to add too many bends but I have two 90 bends and they have worked well.

Don't know about your current make but would think that many parts would be interchangable. Another idea someone must have bought your dealers stock, who and does he have stock. Your should be able to search the net.


Hope this info helps


Libra

« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 02:22:31 PM by libra »

whatsnext

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2005, 02:23:53 PM »
Pellets by the ton is pretty simple. I go to the store and fifty 40lb bags are stacked on a pallet. They forklift a couple of pallets into my trailor and off I go. The store is only ten miles  from my house. I have a 2500 sqft garage/shop so there is plenty of room for two pallets of pellets. I restack three tons onto two pallets. I ran my flue under a window I opened enough to build a framed box under it. That way when I remove the stove I just take out the box and shut the window. No trace of the stove ever being there.

John.....
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 02:23:53 PM by whatsnext »

RobD

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2005, 03:05:25 PM »
When I built my house I bought a Tulikivi because I thought I'd sell the house when it was done, which didn't happen. You fire it up and when the fire dies down you shut the vent so nothing goes up the flue. The massive soapstone keeps us toasty all night and it has a bake oven in it that we make pizza's, bread and other goodies in. I like the warmth of wood.


I didn't buy a pellet stove because I figured if things got rough you might not be able to get pellets or you would be at the mercy of he pellet sellers just like the oil sellers. One other draw back is power. For those people who don't have alternate energy pellet stoves go out with the power and a couple of my friends didn't want that as we lose power here a lot.


I have a wood splitter that works great, it came from a tractor three point hitch and my neighbor just gave it to me brand new. I made a tank, got some lines and bartered for a gas engine so the thing cost me about forty bucks. I have enough land to keep us warm without taking down any good trees so my fuel bill is pretty good for this cold climate.


Like I said I want to put a hundred gallon drum in the basement with  some electric coils in it and have a dedicated mill just for that tank.


I'm also working on  POU (point of use) hot water heater. I have it all laid out except the flow sensing turn on. I made a sensor but the design doesn't excite me.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 03:05:25 PM by RobD »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2005, 07:46:59 PM »
I didn't buy a pellet stove because I figured if things got rough you might not be able to get pellets or you would be at the mercy of he pellet sellers just like the oil sellers.


There are models available (I think they call them "biomass" stoves) which aren't limited to pellets.  They'll burn corn, cherry pits, and a bunch of other stuff that's otherwise waste.  Main difference is a more capable and controlable auger and a grate that can handle clinkers from burning stuff that leaves more residue than pellets.  Like pellet stoves they do very complete and thus low-pollution combustion.


The main reason stove pellets are cheap is that they're made of compressed sawdust - which the sawmills and wood-product manufacturers would have to burn themselves or otherwise dispose of, at considerable expense and legal trouble.  (Takes special burners to make the combustion complete enough to avoid filling the area with toxic smoke or have the burning dust escape and start a fire.  Sometimes they'll burn some of it to power their plant.  But a sawmill makes a LOT of sawdust, and it burns HOT.)  Instead of dumping or burning it they can compress it into standard pellets, bag it up, and sell it to the likes of us (with special stoves) as a cheap fuel.  Great deal all around.


One other draw back is power. For those people who don't have alternate energy pellet stoves go out with the power and a couple of my friends didn't want that as we lose power here a lot.


There are models that work on 12 volts.  At least one has an optional (and somwhat pricey) peltier generator that goes on the back, pulls power from the flue gas heat (also helping heat the house), and both powers the fans and auger and keeps a battery in the stove base charged for restarting it later.  No external power required (except maybe to trickle-charge the battery over the summer so you don't need a new one next fall).


Don't know if it's available as a biomass model though.  (I encountered it a while back, before I was so aware of the distinction.)

« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 07:46:59 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Scotth

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2005, 07:49:41 PM »
OK everyone has anyone actually BUILT their own outdoor wood furnace???I have 16 acres of bush,and there is a mill down the road-$20 a bush cord for slabs so fuel is not a problem.The basement is already set up for radiant heat which I would like to keep,and we heat the upstairs with a woodstove.Fuel oil is only going to go up,hence my interest in the outdoor heater.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 07:49:41 PM by Scotth »

Old F

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2005, 07:16:41 AM »
Scot


To answer your question .

Wile I ended up installing a Wood Master stove  I ordered a early set  of plans from Deb Design.


They basically copied from commercial designs. The plans are straight forward and should work as well as any commercial design.


 The 2000 dollar material cost  mite be a little low steel has gone up.


With that said how good of welder are you?  I am a fair welder with stick and tig.

But I wasn't set up to handle the ½ an ¼  inch  steel plate.   This is not a light weight Fab job.

The dry weight of my Wood master is 1600 pounds .


Nine grand just for the stove !

I would shop around some more.


As it stands now I have Five grand total in my set up .  

I did my on install and if I had more time

 I could have shaved  another nine hundred off using recycled  parts for pluming and water to air heat exchanger.


The Deb plans have some good cost saving tips here.  Check out my web site and click around and you see my wood stove saga.


And  here is a site for any one needing parts or supplies  

       http://www.outdoorstovesupplies.com


Hope this helps


Old F

« Last Edit: June 24, 2005, 07:16:41 AM by Old F »
Having so much fun it should be illegal

RobD

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2005, 04:42:52 PM »
Thanks ULR,

Biomass certainly seems like the way to go and I like the idea of getting power right off the flue.

The pellet stoves I saw all ran on AC and only with pellets.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2005, 04:42:52 PM by RobD »

Scotth

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2005, 06:58:19 PM »
Thanks Old F,That's what I was after.My welding skills are fair,but I was concerned about having perfectly water tight welds in the critical areas.I'm going to check out the Deb plans as they are not that expensive,and see where it goes from there.The 9 grand heater,according to the guy I spoke to,weighs in at 2 tons.That's not a typo.Apparently they use the thickest steel of any manufacturer,and haven't had a claim in almost 20 years.Still 9 grand is 9 grand,and I don't happen to have it lying around at the present time,so I'm going to have to experiment a little on my own.I was also considering using those vacuum tube water heaters and storing the heated water underground in an insulated tank.Anyone tried that????
« Last Edit: June 24, 2005, 06:58:19 PM by Scotth »

billie50

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2005, 09:28:15 PM »
go to a farm show  or  trade  show  and look at  a  bunch of  different  models..then take  what you think is  best  from  them   and  try  building  your own....i built  one  from  scrapyard materials (other than  the  electric  parts) and  the  cost  was  under 1500 bucks  before all the  underground  pipe  and  rads and stuff..ahve  been using it  4  winters  so  far...and  no problems
« Last Edit: August 03, 2005, 09:28:15 PM by billie50 »

WindyPass

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2006, 12:28:27 AM »
Thanks all for the info here -- a good read tonight.


Has anyone had experience with a Greenwood inddor/outdoor wood furnace? I ran across them doing a web search (http://www.greenwoodfurnace.com/ ) ... I was intrigued based on the information on their website and talking to one of their sales guys on the phone (Bryans knows what he is talking about and even knows a lot about Central Boiler).


I am concerned about what our local government is going to do with outdoor wood boilers (and heard that regualtion is coming from the EPA early next year which may not let these things operate.) With energy costs where they are, I want options. I looked at Tarm and Wood Gun, but I was really impressed by what I read, heard from the folks there (they encouraged me to look at other products as well .. which really surprised me ... thye must be pretty confident)


They told me that they are going to be at the MN State Fair with a unit that will be running (????) , so I am going to go take a look. Their website says 'clean burning' so seeing is beleiving ... I don't think I have ever seen a Central Boiler running at a fair.


Has anyone else run across this company/product?


Thanks!

wp

« Last Edit: August 13, 2006, 12:28:27 AM by WindyPass »

TomW

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2006, 07:11:37 AM »
windy;




I am concerned about what our local government is going to do with outdoor wood boilers (and heard that regualtion is coming from the EPA early next year which may not let these things operate.)


Al the more reason I would get it in NOW. I highly doubt they would get away with making everyone scrap existing units.


If it is already installed you would likely be grandfathered in as they say. But, not sure.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: August 13, 2006, 07:11:37 AM by TomW »

finnsawyer

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Re: Outdoor Wood Furnace
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2006, 08:58:00 AM »
One of the local towns banned their use this year, so its happening.  I don't know about the grandfathering in in that case, though.  I,ve got 30 acres of woodland near by, and need something to heat my house until I can put in a new well, so I'm considering an outdoor wood fired boiler.  The problem is, what's the best one for the price?  It's a new area for me.  The outdoor furnace, not burning wood.  I've got a heat pump and not enough water for it, so the boiler would feed the heat pump, an easy adaptation.  Some of the cost of heat would be electricity, which is acceptable.  Putting in a new well is a $10,000 crap shoot.  Buying the furnace is not.  I suppose the situation with these furnaces is like that with heat pumps.  The one I had in my first house was a piece of junk.  The compressor has been replaced twice, and this unit was recommended by the power company engineers.  Go figure.  My current one, a 40,000 BTU unit, which I bought used, is very robust and reliable.  Seems like you can't hurt it.  So, what's the best 40,000 BTU outdoor wood fired boiler furnace?  Anybody know?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2006, 08:58:00 AM by finnsawyer »