Author Topic: Retrofit a stove to take it's air from outside the house?  (Read 15798 times)

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(unknown)

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Retrofit a stove to take it's air from outside the house?
« on: February 10, 2010, 12:30:18 PM »


 We have this old 30ish years old stove at my brother's place.  I'm not sure how you call them in english (Franklin?), anyway, we call them "slow burning" stoves because we can control how much air gets in it.  It looks a lot like this one (http://www.123vendu.com/img/annonces/et16067-1.jpg)


  The air intake is at the bottom of the right hand side.  I cringe when I think that the burning hot air from the inside of the house means bringing an equivalent amount of cold air from the inside.


  What are options?   What do people do?  Is  "retrofitting" some pipe on it to take the air from the outside a good idea?  The stove is about 3 feet from the closest outer wall, and about 1.5 feet from the brick chimney it is linked to.


Thanks!

« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 12:30:18 PM by (unknown) »

Airstream

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house?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2010, 02:23:45 PM »
no matter how dependable the flue draft build a back-draft fire stop into it - I've wanted to do this to an older natural gas furnace for a while but have contented myself in simply drawing the coldest air from just above floor level to feed fresh air to it; don't even want to think about blue flames outside of the firebox...
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 02:23:45 PM by Airstream »

ShadeTree

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Re: Retrofit a stove
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2010, 02:45:53 PM »
Hi Morglum,  I have an old BlazeKing (air tight) it's basically a bigger version of the earthstove.  I ran outside air to it years ago, I used 1-1/2 #40 plumbing pipe run down thru the floor, it sucks air from under the house,  works Great,


As long as you can still control the air flow there is no reason not to do it..


ShadeTree..  <-- never left, just ain't had much to say..


..

« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 02:45:53 PM by ShadeTree »

morglum

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Re: house?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2010, 03:21:41 PM »
Will remember that :)


Q:  Would back drafts still be an issue if I ended the pipe in the unheated crawl space under the floor?  I'd think not, since there would be no wind?

« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 03:21:41 PM by morglum »

morglum

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Re: Retrofit a stove
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2010, 03:24:19 PM »
Hi Shadetree,


   Thanks for your comment.  I'm glad to hear it's feasible.  I have a couple more questions if you don't mind


Q1)  Did you just weld the pipe around the air intake on the stove, or did you find a way to make it removable?


Q2)  How did you add the air intake control to the pipe?    Do you have any pictures at hand by any chance?


Thanks!

S.

 

« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 03:24:19 PM by morglum »

ShadeTree

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Re: Retrofit a stove
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2010, 04:25:28 PM »


Sorry no pictures,  


  I just bored a hole in the floor (being careful to miss the joists)

ran the pipe from the air intake on the back of the stove, the intake is a heat

sensitive damper that sucked air off the floor up the back of the stove then

back down into the bottom of the fire box,  


You could use a butterfly valve in your pipe to manually control the air..


Or if you have auto air control on your stove run the pipe so the air still flows

thru your air damper (the auto control)..


ShadeTree..


 

« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 04:25:28 PM by ShadeTree »

cardamon

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Retrofit a stove
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2010, 08:33:14 PM »
I did this with my stove.  I have a riteway stove from the 80's.  I punched a hole for a 1.5" emt connector in the draft control box and dropped a piece of emt down through the floor which is outside.  I went further though and put a flapper valve on it which is controlled by a solenoid.  I control the solenoid with a programmable thermostat so now I have accurate programmable control of the inside temp.  I find that I can drop the programmed temp down to 50 and go away for three days before the fire goes out.  I think it is much more efficient too since Im not drawing all that cold air to run the fire through the living space, and the place doesnt get as dry as a desert either like it used to before I had outside air.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 08:33:14 PM by cardamon »

morglum

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Re: Retrofit a stove
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2010, 01:36:08 AM »
nice!!

   I have to admit having a thermostat on a wood stove is a pretty cool idea.


Im surprised at 3 days though.  Even if I r almost completely cut the air intake, the wood will be mostly gun after one night..

« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 01:36:08 AM by morglum »

morglum

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Re: Retrofit a stove
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2010, 01:45:17 AM »
gun = gone

Im off to bed...
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 01:45:17 AM by morglum »

Airstream

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Re: house?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2010, 07:20:45 AM »
Here in Minnesota I've heard the tight & well-fitting brass weatherstripping in the doors and windows sound like gigantic harmonica reeds when 70mph plus wind gusts pulled a vacuum and literally shook the house on its foundations.


At that point if a wood stoves outdoor air vent was not securely double back-draft damped - and a provision for ember/ash trap - there would have been equal to an acetylene torch rolling through the intake air vent looking for anything combustible.


Just wanted to share a ration of fear, proceed as planned...

« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 07:20:45 AM by Airstream »

zeusmorg

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Re: Retrofit a stove .
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2010, 07:30:46 AM »
 I run outside air to both my wood burning stove and gas heater.

On the gas heater I just used a piece of galvanized chimney pipe thru the side of the house and int the burn chamber, wher it would normally pull basement air in..


 On the wood burner i also added a damper to control the firebox, much more efficient, the place stays warmer (consuming outside cold air) and It also seems to reduce the ash and dust normally produced by one of those old things.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 07:30:46 AM by zeusmorg »

SteveCH

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Re: Retrofit a stove to take it's air from outside
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2010, 08:31:00 AM »
It can surely be done, at least in some cases. A coworker of mine did this some years ago and it worked very well. He cut a hole in the ashpan area of his stove, ran an appropriately-sized steel pipe down thru the floor and then out thru the crawlspace wall [so one 90 degree elbow below the floor]. He put a simple flapper door on the end with a cable he could use from indoors to close off drafts when stove not in use. It was done with scrap and odds and ends he had lying around. I don't recall how he secured the pipe to the stove, but I believe he put a flange on it and secured that with screws to the stove.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 08:31:00 AM by SteveCH »

morglum

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Re: Retrofit a stove .
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2010, 09:11:19 AM »
Thanks!


Did you do anything to prevent "back drafts" ?

Do  you notice the home being warmer in remote rooms? (ie: is it worth it?)

« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 09:11:19 AM by morglum »

morglum

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Re: Retrofit a stove to take it's air from outside
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2010, 09:12:44 AM »
Through floor + through crawlspace wall is what I would probably need to do as well.


Flange sounds like a good idea, given that we have no welding skills.


Do you know if did anything regarding back drafts?

Do you know if the remote rooms are noticeably warmer than before?


Thanks!

« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 09:12:44 AM by morglum »

zap

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Re: Retrofit a stove .
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2010, 10:37:12 AM »
zeus, do you still have the Actionbent?  Still motorized and if so, is it doing well for you?

« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 10:37:12 AM by zap »

thirteen

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Re: visitor protection
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2010, 09:58:36 AM »
As a suggestion you might want to make a wire mesh to cover the intake. I have nice little creatures that love to build nests and pipes are a good place for them to make a home or just try to visit you. I move my heating stove to a back room then replace it with a small breakfast type table with two chairs. A nice change in the house for summer. Just an idea.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 09:58:36 AM by thirteen »
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morglum

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Re: visitor protection
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2010, 10:39:16 AM »
good thinking :)

« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 10:39:16 AM by morglum »

sbotsford

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Re: Retrofit -- Don't bother.
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2010, 08:24:14 AM »
You don't really care.


Consider:  Suppose you put 10 kg of logs (22 lbs) in the stove, and expect that to run for 4 hours.


10 Kg wood, is probably 8 kg of fuel and 2 kg of water and ash.


Wood is effectively carbohydrate CH20  in shorter and longer chains.


CH20 + O2 -> C02 + H20   Chemical reaction

30   + 32    44  + 18    Molecular weights.


Note the proportions.  

8 Kg of fuel will require a bit over 8 kg of oxygen, which means about 40 kg of air.


40 Kg of air is about 32 cubic meters of air, or about 8 cubic meters an hour.


Now lets look at your house:  If it's 1200 square feet, that's about 120 square meters. 2.5 meter high ceilings is 300 cubic meters.


If you house is really tight it's going to be 1 air change every 3 hours.  Typical 20 year old construction is 1 air change every 1 to 1.5 hours.  A drafty house may be an air change every 30 minutes.


But even the tight house is 100 cubic meters per hour.


Your wood stove is only 10% of the air exchange.


I'll admit I've played fast and lose with the numbers here, and I've oversimplified somewhat.  But I bet I'm close.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 08:24:14 AM by sbotsford »

morglum

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Re: Retrofit -- Don't bother.
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2010, 07:29:32 AM »
haha!

Interesting numbers!

« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 07:29:32 AM by morglum »

WoodstoveWizard

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Re: Retrofit a stove
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2010, 10:27:47 AM »
cardamon - sounds interesting. I've not heard of using a thermostat to retrofit a wood stove and control the intake before.


How did you stop the stove smoking under these conditions? It seems like your very limited air supply would be just enough to keep the fire from extinguishing, but you'd struggle to get complete combustion.


Such an arrangement may no longer be legal depending on the clean air laws where you are, not to mention a smokey stove smouldering away for three days isn't going to impress the neighbours!


Morglum:

Adding an external air supply is a great idea, especially if, as you say, the external wall are so near to the stove.


You don't need (or necessarily want) your stove to be directly connected to the external air for the backdrafting reasons mentioned previously, but this kind of connection isn't necessary in the first place.


Look at your wood stove and locate the current air inlet - it is likely to be low on the stove and to the front. If you can supply cold air to within a few inches of this location you are set - convection will do the rest, sucking the cold air into the firebox.


It helps to visualise this cold air as "heavy" - it wants to sink down to the nearby floor level. If you can make a lip a few inches high infront of and around the stove this will be sufficient to stop the cold air spilling out over your floor.  Our georgian fireplace, which now has a large wood stove in it, already has such a lip in place.


I have had a look and don't have a very good picture of this arrangement - the ones on www.woodstovewizard.com/wood-stove-fan.html">this page about building a stove fan show part of it (the stone lip, fire surround). I've been eyeing it up for ages to work out how to get cold air into that spot but my parents won't let me touch the wooden floor - apparently it is old and important!


In your case something as simple as installing an airbrick in the nearby wall (with a way to close the vent) and building a lip around the stove may serve very well. It will also probably be less disruptive and cheaper than undertaking a major plumbing, stove adaptation, floor board lifting job.  (I had an airbrick installed recently - £30 and the guy was done in 20 minutes)


Mike

« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 10:27:47 AM by WoodstoveWizard »

morglum

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Re: Retrofit -- Don't bother.
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2010, 07:47:47 AM »
Interesting numbers, yet it really doesnt fit my "personal experience" of being hot/warm next to the stove and cold everywhere else.


-Does a fire really use 100% of the oxygen in the air?  

-What about air that isnt burnt, simply pulled by the chimney effect?


I tend to agree with you and believe that most oxygen is burnt (otherwise I wouldnt be able to stop the fire using the air inlets)... still it just doesnt fit my personal experience.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 07:47:47 AM by morglum »

morglum

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Re: Retrofit a stove
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2010, 07:57:27 AM »
Hi Mike, thanks for the post.


I never heard of airbricks before so I googled it up.  I would basically be adding a brick-sized hole in my wall?   I assume this can be shut when I'm not burning wood, right?


We are not heating the crawl space in  the basement, so maybe I could just get the air from down there (there is a vent to the basement about 4 or 5 feet from the stove).


Basically this would involve:



  1.  not attaching/welding/bolting  anything to the stove's air inlet (leave the stove intact)

  2.  building some wall (or lip) under the stove's air inlet a couple inches high

  3.  run a pipe from this walled area through the vent to the crawl space below.

  4.  profit!  




Correct?


I'm not sure I see the cold air rising from the basement if the pipe isnt continuous from the air inlet to the basement.  It doesnt seem like the draft would be strong enough.


Cheers.

Simon

« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 07:57:27 AM by morglum »

morglum

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Re: Retrofit a stove
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2010, 08:12:03 AM »
Just found this page on woodheat.org that tries to debunk the outdoor air myth...

link: http://www.woodheat.org/outdoorair/outdoorairmyth.htm


Not sure it's worth it anymore.  sigh

« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 08:12:03 AM by morglum »

WoodstoveWizard

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Re: Retrofit a stove
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2010, 10:01:25 AM »
Thanks for that link Simon, not one I had come across.


I understand their premise, and agree with some of the points made in that article, however their argument is made purely from the point of view of preventing backdrafting into the room, as this is the basis for the legal argument for installing additional air.


They say that adding external air is ineffective at preventing backdrafting (due to external pressure difference etc...) which I can understand. However, they don't really address the other possible benefits of adding external combustion air, relative to the whole living space.


When air is removed from a dwelling by any means it must be replaced by air infiltration. By controlling where the air infiltrates you gain more control over the air circulation and flow of heat within your home.


For example, you may envisage a situation where your stove keeps one room of your home hot, the adjacent rooms warm but further rooms are cold. If air is infiltrating your home in those further rooms, to make up air to your stove, it makes it substantially more difficult for natural convection to circulate warm air to those distant rooms - the air faces an uphill struggle against the flow of cold air into the building.


If you deliberately place an air inlet into the building adjacent to the stove you effectively provided a much shorter, direct path for that cold air to reach the stove.  The cold air that feeds the stove isn't being dragged from the furthest corners of your home before it gets there.


What this means in practice is that the cold air that used to flow along the floor of your home, chilling ankles, will be dramatically reduced because you have chosen where it flows.


My experience of using an airbrick to supply external air comes from using a gas stove in an old rental property. We were required by law to have an air brick fitted and the only place it could go was on the opposite side of the room. Fitting this air brick dramatically changed the air flow in the whole building.


Previously the majority of the air infiltration had been from upstairs (leaky loft access and a small window vent in the bathroom) - cold air flowed down the stairs, through the hall and across the sitting room floor before reaching the fire.  After the airbrick was installed air flowed directly from the brick to the gas fireplace, across the living room floor.


The upstairs rooms and hallway were noticeably warmer as a result, although the draft across the sitting room was inconvenient.


A more ideal location for the airbrick would have been immediately adjacent to the fireplace so cold air had a limited path, without crossing the living space.  The configuration you describe sounds like it could achieve that end.


I suggest you investigate the airflows within your home before deciding what to do. It is fairly easy to figure out where air is flowing and infiltrating - get your stove burning nicely and open up the air supply fully.  Light an incense stick and observe which way the smoke flows, especially in passage ways/doorways. Hold the incense at various heights so you can get a feel for airflow into and out of a room. If you find a particularly "leaky" room you could try draft proofing and if you find substantial flows of cold air through passageways you could try adding the air brick.


I hope that is of some help!


Mike

« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 10:01:25 AM by WoodstoveWizard »

sbotsford

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Re: Retrofit a stove to take it's air from outside the house?
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2010, 05:37:44 PM »

Morglum

I know what you mean when you say cold everywhere but by the fire.

Most people run a wood stove and use convection.  Hot air rises after all.  But this means there is a cold draft around your ankles all the time.  With the furnace fan not moving air around, the cold air sheeting off your windows gathers in heaps on the floor like giant invisible dust bunnies.

Meanwhile, the air at the ceiling is at 90 F, and doing it's very best to get through to that nice cool attic.

We put a ceiling fan in the living room with the wood stove.  Makes all the difference in the world!

You bring up a good point about it probably being more than 10% due to chimney effect.  I'm sure you want at least 20% extra air to ensure complete combustion, and likely as much as 50%.  So make that 10% into 15%

dnix71

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Re: Retrofit a stove to take it's air from outside the house?
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2010, 10:28:36 PM »
Safety has something to do with all this, too. I used to work in an office building that was converted to natural gas fired thermography printing. If the wind blew from the south in the summer I would get sick from CO and have to go outdoors repeatedly to avoid passing out or throwing up. It was that bad. I thought about calling OSHA, but we went out of business anyway because the owner was/is too stupid to design a print shop properly. He is from Minnesota and up there they used the heat from thermographers to heat in the winter and just added lots of water to the air to keep the humidity up. He is also stupid cheap and doesn't take care of things when they need maintenance.

The original owner designed his shop (which he refused to sell, so we moved into the office building) with open bays for the thermography section. Plenty of fresh air and no humidity control. The paper was kept in a separate walled off section of that building with a/c to maintain consistent humidity in the stock.

The problem we had here was improper exhaust. All the thermographer chimneys went to a common plenum on the roof and there was no fan to pull the exhaust out. If the wind blew the wrong way the roof placement was such that it forced it back down into the shop.

Al Yankovich's parents died because the flue to the fireplace was closed. Making living space too air-tight can be dangerous.

thirteen

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Re: Retrofit a stove to take it's air from outside the house?
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2011, 10:06:03 PM »
Three years ago we decided to seal up the house. My daughter asked just how much of a hole did the little cracks add up to. I gave her and her sister a candle and told them to go and find the air leaks and we would fix them. They measured all of the holes they found. They found out that under the steps that go upstairs it had never been insulated nor finished. They added up all of the holes and cracks and came up with an opening of 42 X 40 inches of free flowing open air space coming into the house. We had been running the wood stove for two days and was just getting the place warm. After 4 hrs of work filling the cracks and holes the place was allot warmer. The wood sure lasted longer burning in the stove. The place needs allot of work and most of the place was done with boards lapping over boards on the back side of the house. I will get T1 siding and redo the backside and seal it as I go. Sort of funny what a small hole here and there really adds up to. I have a Blaze King stove and plan on putting an air intake from the outside directly behind the stove next to the thermostat. Just a side note saying sounds good to me.
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