hydro system

[northkorea]

okay first off im no engineer and im new to electricity but i do know how to fabricate and

im a quick learning so here's what i came up with now some don't have a river,stream or brook

but i want to generate power by hydro by using the same water again and again by using a

tank to hold water that empties down a pipe trough the turbine witch is just like a propeller

the force of the water that fall straight down(vertical) turns the turbine which turns the

alternator now the big problem is getting the water back to the tank and it has to get there

fast enough to keep circulating by witch we use water pumps to do so after the water goes

through the turbine it will flow into the collector tank now i must pump it from the

back to the main tank water pump could do that but id think it would take a lot of

electricity to run  a pump good enough to pump the water straight up back into the tank fast

baste on that my tank is the size of two bath tubs will say 500 gallons and it can drain in from 3 to 5 minutes

and the only electricity i can use is what a generate and  i don't think the alternator

will generate enough to power the pump and supply me with some extra electricity

now what i figure is a could use more lower electricity pumps and make the farther apart

so the water does not need to be pumped straight up but instead on angles making it easier

to pump to the tank doing so i ad two pumps to pump the water from the collector tank

to a transfer tank witch the water is then i another pump pumps the water back into the

the main  tank but it would probably take the same amount of electricity to power the three

pumps so i figured id make a voltage multiplier bank consisting of a series of voltage

doublers to generate enough electricity to power the pumps then i thought well now i don't

need that many pumps cause i can just multiply the electricity as much as i want the bigger

the bank the more voltage but i thought i might want to build it in my basement and i don't

wont a noisy hydro system running well im trying to sleep if i need it to run well im

asleep it all depends what i want to power with my hydro system so i figured id use a series

of low power quit pumps but enough of them to get the water back fast enough but i also want

to make it as small as i can the main tank i wont to be 500 gallons and i want it to drain

in 3 to 5 min that might be to fast for pumps to refill so 5 to 10 i might have to go with but

the faster it drains the more force i get to turn the turbine and i need a lot of volts to

power three pumps i so my question are how big of a alternator am i goanna need

and is this even possible tell me what u guys think thanks

[John II]

Great idea except it doesn't work that way.

Nothing is 100% efficient. If your generator is 80% efficient and your electric motor driving the pumps are 80% efficient... even your water pump and hydro turbine won't be 100 percent efficient.

Then it takes X amount of power to lift water to X height.... the angle doesn't matter.. It's still all a function of lifting the water to a certain height regardless of the angle of the pipe.

If all the above was 100% efficient it would run, but could provide no auxiliary power for other usages..

You have a greater loss then you do gain and such a system on those factors alone will not function.John II

[northkorea]

thanks i understand that what if i used some ram pumps? then it would have to work right?

[veewee77]

Ram pumps won't move as much water up as it takes to oerate the pump.

Maybe 10% of the water that goes down to power the pump will be returned uphill.

Ram pumps are only usable in a situation where there is a LOT of water flowing down and you only need a little bit brought up.

Look up perpetual motion machines and you'll see there are none that work. This water flowing driving turbine powering pump to move water back up to power turbine would be considered peretual motion. . . it ain't happening!

Keep thinking, though!

Doug

[northkorea]

i seen a post and i thought that would be good for me a siphone system

just like when u siphon gas from a car or water from one tank to another

 i think it should work cause when u siphon gas from a tank the tank is lowe and

u siphone it up so if i could come up with a multiple siphone system my hydro

system could work what do u all think?

[jimjjnn]

Syphons only work downhill once you get it started

[northkorea]

what!!! i just siphoned water from my 150 gallon tank in to buckets lower

to clean it about 2 weeks ago iv been doing that every mouth since i bought fish

explain that?

[northkorea]

oops i so mest up there thinking of the wrong thing what i was gonna say is

explain how i can siphon gas from a car tank to a gas can higher if its cause the

gas is lighter then the water then im just gonna have to do a exsperiment

to find out for my self

[northkorea]

to solve all my problems cant i just build a ac to dc converter then build a dc generator like this  http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/hv/hvdcgen/hvdcgen.html

then build a dc to ac converter then id have enough electricity to power pumps

sorry about my spelling i dont pay attention in that part of school

[wildbill hickup]

As is said many times on this board and other places. There is no free lunch. I think of it this way, if 100 watts of energy is produced by the falling water then it will take 100 watts of energy to return that water to the source. So if you had a generator that was 100% efficient and a pump that was 100% efficient you would still only be able to pump the water that fell back to the source. So in a 100% efficient world (that doesn't exsist) you still would have only enough power to get the water back in the tank, nothing else. In any mechanical/electrical system there are losses so in a system such as this you couldn't even get the watter back to the tank. To date, in this particular dimension in time and space NOBODY has figured out how to turn 100 watts into 101 watts (that I have heard of anyway). Hope I got all that right. Corrections anybody?

Wildbill

[jimjjnn]

Like you said. You siphoned from 150 gallon tanl int buckets lower but you cant siphon liquids uphill.

I may have misunderstood your original post at what you were trying to do.

[finnsawyer]

You will also have friction losses in the pipes and nozzle.  These will slowly cause the system to peter out to zero in any case.

[northkorea]

icic but iv heard of people making little power plants that generate small amounts of electricity to large amounts i can power hundreds of pumps with 50,000 volts there are many generators like this one witch can do that http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/hv/hvdcgen/hvdcgen.html

and power labs is working on a 100k voltage multiplier (still under construction)

which lots of those just use 9 12 or 15 volts witch can come from a battery the battery would drain fast so id have to buy a lot of batteries so instead of a battery

to power the generator the electricity from the alternator will power it

[northkorea]

i just did an experiment and found out water cant be siphoned up hill cause the empty

side of the hose cant be higher then the sucking side of the hose but i can just set

the hose at the same level but in different position in the tanks ill just have to use more tank that only go up a bit more at a time

[Vtbsr]

Hi NK , If you up the volts you drop the amps. Think of a lawn mower engine spark plug high volts but no amps. Power or watts = v x a. I think you should go with PV's and stop the hydro. Hydro needs about 30000 gal per day to make any power to run a house. PV's  can start out small and then add more when you need more power.

[northkorea]

ok im new to this so first off what are vp's and what about my siphon idea if

both ends of the hose are at the same level it will siphon so i just put each end of the hose in different position in the tanks so i should be able to raise the tank a few inches per tank i would just need lots of tanks know about the siphoning part i would just need to make a build a system that works kinda like a syringe a plug type

thing inside the tube when u pull it out it starts the siphon have a series of tube connected together to transfer th water fast enough

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

All of the stuff you're talking about seems to be "perpetual motion machines of the first kind" (more power out than in).

This is prohibited by the principle of conservation of energy (along with its special case, the first law of thermodynamics).

You have to have an external source of energy great enough to provide the output plus all the internal losses of your system.  Otherwise your system is just a glorified battery or spring.  It provides a little power that had been stored in it when it was built, then runs down and stops.

This is true NO MATTER HOW COMPLICATED YOU MAKE IT.  There is NO free lunch.  Every transformation of power loses a little bit, none of them EVER give more than they take.

If this weren't true, we could do something like hook the shaft of a motor to a generator, hook the wires of the generator to the motor, wrap a cord around the shaft and yank to give it an initial spin, then pull off the "over unity" part of the power forever while the rotors spin away merrily.  If there were EVEN ONE energy transformation that gave more than it took, we could combine that with an efficient transform in the other direction and do the same sort of thing - pull off the excess and convert it to a useful form.  But there isn't EVEN ONE such transformation.

All the stuff on this board (along with all the stuff in power engineering) is about CONVERTING one form of power to another.  You take wind, water, light, heat, fuel and oxidizer, or energetic nuclei - from an EXTERNAL SOURCE - and turn part of the energy in it into some more useful form.  Then you dump the slowed air, lowered and/or slowed water, waste light/heat (at a lower temperature or longer wavelength), chemical exhaust, or nuclear waste somewhere ELSE and replace it with fresh input material.

Sorry, but that's how the universe is apparently put together.

In the unlikely event that there IS some way to break this fundamental law and get "over unity" energy conversion, expect it to show up first in some obscure branch of extreme-condition physics, in experiments run by a lab full of serious experts using horrendously expensive equipment, not from garage mechanical tinkering.

Which doesn't mean there's nothing useful or fun to do.  But you'll always need to find some external source of energy to run your contraption.

[northkorea]

well that sums it up there is no why to break the law and if there is im just gonna have to wait for engineers to discover it or im gonna have to school and make

perpetual motion my lifes work well i guess im just gonna have to go with the wind or solar tell i buy a property with a stream or river on it or next to it thanks for all the help