Author Topic: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??  (Read 29080 times)

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clone477

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Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« on: October 05, 2005, 10:39:56 PM »
Was curious if anyone has a home completely lit with LED lighting at 120V AC??  I searched and noted that LED lights are very directional.  But could they not be built around a dome type fixture as to not shine in only one direction.  I would take the time to build something like this 1. because they basically would never need replacement, 2. they use almost no power to run.  Whats everyone feedback on this, has it been done??  Thanks Fern
« Last Edit: October 05, 2005, 10:39:56 PM by (unknown) »

JW

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Yes The people who make led christmas lights
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2005, 06:36:12 PM »
I have some 120vac christmas LED lights, they run off of 120vac, at some rediculasly low amp rating per hour. Although these led lamps are multi colored, I figure since there are some blue leds in the string, white leds could be used just as easily.


 I figure one could just replace all the leds from a conventional christmas tree lamp, led string, with super bright white surplus leds and have what you after clone477.


JW

« Last Edit: October 05, 2005, 06:36:12 PM by JW »

clone477

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Re: Yes The people who make led christmas lights
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2005, 07:45:54 PM »
Yeah I never thought of that.  Now lets say you got a strip of white led christmas lights(Ive seen them), and use a light bulb as the mounting for all the lights, just string them and secure them to the bulb.  Then just wires them up.  It should work, but what Im really wondering is will this be comparable to a typical 60watt bulb or a CFL??  Thanks for the reply, Fern
« Last Edit: October 05, 2005, 07:45:54 PM by clone477 »

ghurd

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2005, 08:08:18 PM »
Fern,


AC 120V isn't the best suited for LEDs.

Either it should have a fancy switching regulator,

or a wastful transformer,

or wastful resistors,

or very long strings of LEDs,

or some things I didn't think of right now.


Or a few of the above.


For a whole room light, CFLs will win. By cost, simplicity, and easy. Probably efficiency too.


LEDs are great for a smaller amount of light, or lighting a smaller area.

Stuff like desk lamps, nightlights, and flashlights.


Most of these are probably 6 or 12VDC.

The 120VACs I would make would look the same.

Compressed the tar out of the photo and it's still big. Hope it still looks OK.





G-

« Last Edit: October 05, 2005, 08:08:18 PM by ghurd »
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DaveW

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Re: Yes The people who make led christmas lights
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2005, 08:17:30 PM »
The short answer is - no, LED's are not comparable to either incandescent or CFL lighting.  To accomplish the same light output requires a lot of LED's, depending on the individual output of the LED used, and this means that you end up with "a thousand points of light". This requires a diffuser, which requires more LED's which.. you see where this is going.  I spent serious time and money designing LED traffic modules to replace incandescent.  They work, but the cost is acceptable because you don't have to reglobe an entire intersection every year.  The best use I see for LED lighting is flashlights, reading lamps, and nightlights. Preferably battery powered.  The economy of scale for room lighting simply isn't there for LEDs.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2005, 08:17:30 PM by DaveW »

pyrocasto

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Re: Yes The people who make led christmas lights
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2005, 08:32:37 PM »
They are great for battery powered operations. My led flashlight(the only light I use) still has it's original batteries in it from my graduation of 2004. Pretty good IMO.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2005, 08:32:37 PM by pyrocasto »

richhagen

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2005, 02:03:44 AM »
I built a 120V LED light of LED's before I knew better.  


First, in terms of light output, (amount of total light output)/(energy used) or Lumens per Watt, LED's are much less efficient than flourescent lights.  There is no comparison.  The best LED's I've seen on the consumer market use twice the energy per lumen of the best flourescents.  


Second, when I built mine, I simply rectified 110V AC, ran it through a bridge rectifier and a resistance value and then a string of 42 or so LED's wired in series.  This is a bad idea.  LED's often fail to a short circuit.  Of 210 or so LED's, I only salvaged about 80 or so of them. (and I bought them when white LED's were still pretty expensive)  The rest of the LED's were ruined.  It worked OK for a while, but maybe there was a voltage spike or something, I don't know, but a string at a time failed over time.  I suspect that individual diodes failed to short, and eventually caused an over-voltage condition on the rest, they drew enough current to kill them, but not blow the quarter amp fuse in the circuit.  I don't recall how long it was up, probably about a year.  If you build one anyway, use a switching power supply to output 12 or 18 volts and run 3 to five in series.  Better yet, just get flourescents.  The light in my laundry room and another 12V led solar yard light I built a year or so afterward both work well after a year or two of service thus far.  


It seemed like a good Idea at the time, but reality proved otherwise.  Rich Hagen

« Last Edit: October 06, 2005, 02:03:44 AM by richhagen »
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Nando

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2005, 10:44:04 AM »
Yes, I have designed them, specially for street traffic lights that operate from 70 to 240 Vac.


The controller is a constant current generator (using a PWM controller) operating with wide range input AC or DC voltages.


The killer for this lights is excessive current settings and heat dissipation.


Properly designed, these lamps may last more than 100,000 hours of usable life and some designs have 2 diodes per package for critical circuits that require secondary lights to come ON, in case that the primary circuit fails (with their own PWM controller).


Some of the street traffic lights may have from 200 to 500 lights in series / parallel strings depending on the design.


The present diode design still is too narrow in producing light energy with low light spreading beam-- too lousy for general light usage.


There are diodes capable of 0.5, 1, 2 watts that are now being used in the developing countries to supply basic lighting needs, replacing kerosene and bark (pine) lamps that produce toxic fumes affecting the lungs.


Regards


Nando

« Last Edit: October 06, 2005, 10:44:04 AM by Nando »

clone477

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2005, 12:51:24 AM »
I did a little research.  Im going off memory though.  


  1. 60watt bulb puts out around 855 lumens
  2. LED puts out 2 lumens and uses .068watts
  3. /2=427 LED to supply the same output as a 60watt bulb.  But it only uses 30watts.  I just got these light specs very quickly off the net, so I dont know how accurate they are, but does this make sense as long as you had a way to difuss the light properly??


« Last Edit: October 08, 2005, 12:51:24 AM by clone477 »

ghurd

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2005, 07:32:15 AM »
I think you may have confused MCD's with lumens.


In terms you may be more familar with,

MCD's is maybe comparable to 'open circuit voltage',

while lumens is maybe comparable to watts.

G-

« Last Edit: October 08, 2005, 07:32:15 AM by ghurd »
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stevec5000

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2006, 02:25:16 PM »
The problem with using white LED's for lights is they don't last very long.

It's common for white LED's to get dim in just a few weeks of continuous use.

I know they always say that LED's last a long time, thousands of hours usually,

but that's a lie. Red and green LED's usually have a long life but white and

blue ones do not. I've been struggling with this problem myself and I've tried

4 different kinds of white LED lamps but they all go dim in just 2-3 weeks.

Some get really dark sooner than others but they all tend to turn a bluish

purple and get dark and keep getting darker the longer they are on.

The only solution I've found is to get new LED's and replace the old ones,

however, the new led's don't last any longer than the original ones did

in the case of 5mm LED's.

One solution I'm considering is switching to a new type of surface mount

LED that is much brighter and also is supposed to have a longer life,

the LUXEON I 1 Watt LED from Philips that is used in high power flashlights.

They are relatively cheap since being replaced by the more powerful LUXEON 3 LED, $2.95 each from Tek-Tite.com, http://www.tek-tite.com/src/product_info.php?id=2985.

The data sheet is available here, http://www.luxeon.com/pdfs/DS25.pdf

The LUXEON I LED's are very small and put out a lot of light and are rated

by Philips to put out 70% of lumens at 50,000 hrs but I don't know if that's

really true or not, at least not yet.  They are not

directly interchangeable with the older 5mm LED's since they use 350ma

of current, not 20ma and get hot so they have to be glued to a heatsink for

cooling. For these reasons they wouldn't make good replacements but need to

have a new lamp designed to use them. I'm thinking of using a switching supply

with 12-15V. DC output to power 3-4 LUXEONs in series.

I'd be interested in knowing if anyone has any better ideas or if you

have run across any white 5mm LED's that actually last very long that

would be good for replacements in dim LED lamps. Thanks.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 02:25:16 PM by stevec5000 »

ghurd

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2006, 03:50:56 PM »
I am not lashing out at you personally.  This is my 2nd post today on the subject.

You are saying exactly what I have been telling people for years !

Thank you.

I was starting to think no one believed me.


"problem with using white LED's for lights is they don't last very long"

"common for white LED's to get dim in just a few weeks"


Thats 112% crap.  Not your fault.


The problems...


"I've tried 4 different kinds of white LED lamps"

Buying junk that is overdriven to keep the cost down and still be bright, because GOOD white LEDs are NOT cheap.  EBay stuff?


"only solution I've found is to get new LED's and replace the old ones"

Replacing crappy LEDs in a crappily (sp?) designed LED circuits will not help. At all.

Things may (will) even get worse in a crappy circuit with good LEDs.


"dim in just a few weeks" & "don't last very long" & "dim in just a few weeks"

Who made the LEDs?  Who made the bulb?  Where is that 11 year warranty?  Can't find them on the internet anymore?

Maybe they simply changed their seller ID.


A reasonably designed circuit should last for many years.

Stuff I made 7 years ago is still going strong. 8 hours a night every night.


"The LUXEON I LED's" are not going to help.

The fact that "they have to be glued to a heatsink for cooling" must say something!

They will not save any power compared to a decent regular bulb making the same amount of light.


I am not lashing out at you personally. I make LED stuff.

I AM tired of...

Paying for 800 number calls that expect me to replace ebay crap that I did not make.

Paying for 800 number calls that expect me to know where to send the crap for replacement.

Paying for 800 number calls that think I am the yellow pages for Chineese fly-by-night companies.

Paying for 800 number calls that expect me to match prices for 'the same' product, tiring because I'd be better off just sending them some cash.


Good LEDs cost more than the complete crappy Chineese product... delivered.

G-

« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 03:50:56 PM by ghurd »
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ghurd

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2006, 04:09:30 PM »
"any better ideas"

Make or buy a good LED bulb
« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 04:09:30 PM by ghurd »
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stevec5000

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2006, 04:12:39 PM »
So, um, after all that venting do you know of any white LEDs that last more

then 2 weeks and don't cost an arm and a leg?

BTW, you know you shouldn't try to adjust your own medication! You are supposed

to take the entire tablet and not break them in half to make them last longer!
« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 04:12:39 PM by stevec5000 »

ghurd

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2006, 07:23:32 AM »
The whole tablet?  That explains a lot!


What exactally are you looking for? Or trying to light?


If you are comfortable with making that kind of thing...

Start with brand name LEDs, reduce the 20ma to 15ma or even 10ma, leave the LED wires long to move heat away, don't use 'internet LED math'- measure the ma, use twice as many LEDs as you expect it takes then reduce the ma to suit the light volume.


Two rules. 1- Don't make heat. 2- Get rid of heat.


ie: That 'big' LED bulb in the photo above has 24 LEDs, 12V, 110ma, mounted on a double sided thru-hole plated 2oz Cu PCB, each neg pad has the same surface area, and the diode and main resistor are in the brass base.

So all the LED heat has a place to go, and other heat is generated away from the LEDs and has a place to go.

It 'seems half as bright' as the very old not-so-good 120V 11W CFL in my computer lamp, but maybe close to the totally crappy opaque bubble 120V 7W CFL from Big Lots.

Thats without a reflector around the CFLs.


Not expensive means not many LEDs and not much light output.

Long lasting means quality LEDs at a current well below 20ma.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2006, 07:23:32 AM by ghurd »
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dinges

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2006, 11:25:06 AM »
Ghurd,


I've got some left-over pills that I don't mind donating. They worked fine for me so they should be fine for you too.


I know what you mean about cheap white leds. Bought a batch off the internet, 50 or a 100, don't remember. Built a few 9 LED & 12LED bulbs with them. Then, as they were finished, each bulb had at least one LED (sometimes more) that didn't work. Took lots of rework. Also re-affirmed my policy of testing each & every component before using it. Call me skeptic, call me cynical. But I'm not an idiot.


It was then that I built my 'LED tester'. Still, after a few hours, other LEDs began to fail... Some had the annoying habit of flickering for a long while before failing. Annoying. More rework.


Can't be the internet math. I've read it on the internet, so it must be true.


They work fine now, but I think I've got a yield of only 80% out of the full batch.

I don't overdrive them. Usually at 10mA, rarely at 15mA. I don't understand people who push anything up to and beyond its rating. LEDs, bearings, windmills, whatever.


The Luxeon LEDs. ROFL. I was having the same discussion in an electronics store: 'I'd like to order some 12V CFLs'. Nobody had ever asked for them before (he said), but they did have bright 12V white LEDs, efficient too... Pointed them to the big heatsink. Anyway, 15 minutes later, I had explained to the <expletive deleted> what the advantages of CFL were over inefficient bright LEDs.


'half as bright' is hard to tell. You need accurate measuring equipment to tell. Human eye adapts too well to different lighting. I remember playing around with identical flashlights (Surefires), one with a normal bulb, the other with a reduced power bulb (either 1/2 or 1/5 of the power, don't remember). I had difficulty telling, by the lightspot, which was which. And that was with two light spots next to eachother, for direct comparison.


Think I'm going to try converting a few 12V CFLs now. For the price of 1 white LED, I can buy a 220VAC CFL (1$ or so). Ripping the guts out, inserting some DIY electronics). See Willib's thread.


My opinion of LEDs: nice gadgets, nice for task lighting or miniature pocket lights (I love the Photon microlight). General area lighting: no way. Only CFLs for that, for me.


Talking about CFLs. Last week, a cheap Chinese CFL blew, after 5 hours of so of use (replacing the previous one that had seen at most 500 hours of use, instead of the claimed 8000 hours). Yes, I always write the date of being put in use on them... Loud bang, darkness, scared Peter.


Did I mention my name was Peter cheap-cheap? Talking about cheap. I think I should stop cutting my pills in two too. Despite the fact that a box of pills lasts twice as long that way.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2006, 11:25:06 AM by dinges »
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ghurd

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2006, 03:04:22 PM »
Peter,

We test every one for brightness and color as soon as a shipment comes in. With meters and eyes.  Time comsuming.

Then seperate into catagory.

Then test the V to I curves of the batch.  etc, etc, etc.

I figured thats past most DIY guys. They have to use what they bought, after it's tested to be sure it at least works. LOL.


Now... where'd I put that 1/2 a pill...

G-

« Last Edit: September 01, 2006, 03:04:22 PM by ghurd »
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hayfarmer

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2011, 10:45:13 AM »

  this is a pretty old thread, 120V L.E.D. lights been around awhile,here is a pic of 120v led floods  that use 4 watts each I added to home and a link where I found them:


  http://stores.shop.ebay.com/GoldenGadgets__W0QQ_sidZ90390807QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em14?_pgn=3

2510-0

  hayfarmer

 

Madscientist267

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2011, 06:49:06 PM »
Also recognizing the age of the thread; this gives a chance to see how things have come since then.

These little buggers are pretty bada$$...

http://www.lampsplus.com/products/GE-LED-Narrow-Flood-PAR30-Bulb__M4743.html

They're available for cheaper, but I chose that site because there are many angles to view the bulb from. I got two of them from wally world not long ago and love them!

My how things have changed. Sure, there is a sizeable heatsink, but they put off insane amounts of light given the power input.

I'd say it gives CFL a run for it's money. Just shoot it at the ceiling and voila!

Steve
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How much magic smoke it contains does !

fernbrae

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2011, 08:45:42 PM »
Hi Gentlemen,
if you do a Google search for Corn cob globes , you will find what you are looking for .
I have these in my home in Australia ,they are fantastic , the 4.5 watt is equal to a 60 watt invandescent or a 11 watt Cfl.
They give 360 degree light .
Greg

ghurd

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2011, 02:09:49 AM »
the 4.5 watt is equal to a 60 watt invandescent or a 11 watt Cfl.

That is a steep claim.
Steca Solsum 12V 11W is 650 lm.
The corn cob thing is only 280 lm.
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Madscientist267

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2011, 09:49:50 AM »
I dunno man... I ran one last night and had the wife cut off her CFL and there was little difference between the output.

LED has come a long way. It gives off a fair amount of heat, but so does the CFL (which is 13W).

The main problem with comparing them is that the CFL is omnidirectional, the LED is set up in a flood pattern. But the overall effect is pretty close in terms of how the eye perceives them.

With the LED shooting at the ceiling and the CFL shaded (with a standard shade), it's hard to tell the difference in the ambient light of the room. I digress slightly in that the LED appears slightly dimmer, but that could also be because I am currently unable to directly compare apples to oranges - 10W LED vs 13W CFL.

I will concede however that above this power level, CFL will begin to take back over. Conversely though, it's just a matter of time before LED catches back up again.

Steve
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

Norm

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2011, 10:08:21 AM »
the 4.5 watt is equal to a 60 watt invandescent or a 11 watt Cfl.

That is a steep claim.
Steca Solsum 12V 11W is 650 lm.
The corn cob thing is only 280 lm.
Whew ! All these prices and all that work....
I'd rather just use LEDs just like I do 3 PB LED lights in series with a 100ohm resistor
hooked up to a 12volt 3.9 Ni-Cad battery pack works for what it is intended....a nice nite light.

.....anything more than that....a CFL 11 watt 110 volt , want to use 12 volts....? use an inverter !
cheaper and softer light than a 12 volt CFL......IMO.

BTW ....those Free 9LED flashlights that you get from HF ?
 Well ....Yes they are nice but they won't shine all night as a nite lite.....and when
you have to replace the batteries...3 Alkalinebatteries....Ni-Cads have a lower
internal resistance and might blow the LEDs.
    I love that $1 flashlight I have + a *2 cell LED bulband 2  AA rechargable Ni-Cads
that even shining all night will last a couple of nights.....total cost...about $5 !
Norm.

Rover

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2011, 10:17:20 AM »
IMHO, in the cost vs efficiency arena, CFLs win hands down. When using a 12 V DC source for the my LED bulbs, I can get a comparable (subjective) output between my 96 LED bulb and a 120 VAC (100W equivalent CFL).

Both draw roughly 23 W. However when you consider the cost of the DIY bulb, which uses 3 chip SMD LEDS... not even in the same ballpark, cost me quite a bit to make it.

In  my comparison look at the 96 LED at full power vs the 100W eq CFL, they appear to have similar light output (the CFL has more upward than the 96 since the 96 is made around a cylinder and has no upward directional LEDs)

http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,144841.0.html

One more thing, if you do get into LED's for lighting, other than point lighting, stay away from the typical T variety (5mm etc) , with beam angles under 30 degrees, they will disappoint.


Rover
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Norm

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2011, 10:19:09 AM »
Reply Yes I guess that LEDs are coming along pretty good
but like aren't they quite expensive compared to the same amount of light
from a CFL ?
Norm.

Madscientist267

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2011, 10:23:30 AM »
Now cost vs output I was not bringing into the picture.

I simply was comparing efficiencies in terms of light output per watt.

Monetary cost, yes. CFL wins. The 10W LED floods are not cheap.

Steve
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How much magic smoke it contains does !

dlenox

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2011, 12:57:11 PM »
CFL sucks for outdoor lighting when it is cold out, they take forever to come full on.

How are the LED lights? better I hope?

Dan Lenox

Rover

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2011, 01:02:53 PM »
CFL sucks for outdoor lighting when it is cold out, they take forever to come full on.

How are the LED lights? better I hope?

Dan Lenox

There is no warm up with LEDs, mine have been outside most of the winter, no issues
Rover
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MagicValleyHPV

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2011, 01:35:50 PM »
I won't use ANY CFL's any more - longevity sucks.

I bought 8 of these to litter my RV - will work on both AC/DC: 

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/mr16-4-led-360-lumen-3500k-warm-white-light-bulb-12v-39027

Decent selection - free sh is nice , but can take weeks to deliver

http://s.dealextreme.com/search/12v+led+MR16

ghurd

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2011, 08:44:08 PM »
I dunno man... I ran one last night and had the wife cut off her CFL and there was little difference between the output.

With...  10W LED vs 13W CFL.

I simply stated the numbers I found for his "corn cob" 4.5W LED and a decent quality DC CFL,
refuting "the 4.5 watt is equal to a 60 watt invandescent or a 11 watt Cfl".

MagicV,
With DC CFLs, you get what you pay for, and generic versions do not last long for me either.

G-
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fernbrae

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2011, 06:56:31 PM »

Hi Gentlemen ,
attached are the specifications on the corn type globe .
Although the lumens are lower for this than an 11 wat cfl ( 0n 240 Volt ) ,the light output is
close enough the same when tried side by side .
As I said I have these in my house and the savings are testamant to the globes .
There are also much larger wattages available in this globe range right up to 19.5 watts @ 1463 lumens ,
 but this is a big lamp  100mm diameter and 140mm high.
Led`s have come a long way , I purchase these for the company I work for in AUS.
AS well as many other lewd lights , strips etc.
Rgds
Greg

yuandrew

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2011, 03:34:10 AM »
I have three of these EcoSmart 40 watt equivalent bulbs from Home Depot. They're going for $17.97



What's Inside
http://www.leds.edn.com/blog/leds-blog/home-depot%E2%80%99s-20-ecosmart-led-light-what%E2%80%99s-inside

Madscientist267

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Re: Anyone design 120V AC LED Lighting??
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2011, 08:30:07 AM »
I have one of those myself, as well as a set of 4 that I bought my parents one year as a gift.

Glad to see the price has come down on them - I spent $40 US a piece on them! :(

They are awesome lights; they put off a good amount of light. Rated at 8W, and comparable to a 40W incandescent according to the package, to me they seem closer to 60.

Very natural 'halogen' color, and they are fairly efficient.

I don't have anything really bad to say about them, other than the cost. But it looks like that's changing. :)

Steve
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !