Newbe needs advise

[HomegrownPower]

Hello

Lonnie here and I'm so new to this all I've done is bought my magnets and have several bids for wire on ebay . Then it dawned on me I'M not even sure what I need as my application will be somewhat different . My Neo's are  2 inch x 1 inch x 0.5 inch thick . Ebay item number 110081970650.

I bought the ebay book and it's good but Hughs plan doesn't really fit my complete needs . I'm wanting to build a alt that will run at higher RPM's from a 12 horse lawn mower engine converted to run on natural gas to turn the alt .

Most things like stoves using 220 volt we have already converted to gas . I'd like to generate my own electricity if I could . I could get by with just 110 but would like to be able to make 220 also if thats possable .

I think I would want a 48 volt system to produce more but am really not sure and my books don't tell . Plus from my reading / resurching I think I could use a bigger wire size with more RPM's again thats just my inturperation from the book plus reading .

We built a house around a trailer here and I was hoping to keep the trailer hooked to grid and produce , store and use my own power in the addition . Just another fuse box with my power to it and leave the box on the grid alone with the exception of using less .

Sorry about the book here but while my questions are short I figured the back ground would help someone understand what I'd like to do .

Questions . Anyone know how much juice can be made with one of these alts turning say 1600 rpm? .Is a 48 volt system the one I need trying to produce that much power ?  What size wire and how many phase / coils to prevent over heating on one turning that fast . ?

My hopes are to build one that will charge a battery bank and shut off . Then start back when battery charge drops to say 80% . Any help pointing me in the right direction will be very much appreachated  Thanks Lonnie

[HomegrownPower]

Parhaps I should clarify a couple things so people know more about what I'm trying .

The book I refer to is " How to build a wind turbine " by Hugh Piggott 2005 edition . I understand and like the design and feel confident in building this type alt . However with wind being hit and miss here I'd like to turn my alt with a small engine running on natural gas that happens to be free for me . Wind , water , natural gas makes no difference to me still coil winding and stater making and I'd like a big one and if I can save on electric I'd be very happy

I know Hugh calls for #21 or a pair if 24 wire for 48 volt cunstruction . I'm just not sure if this is what I need (48) volt . What I'd like is something puting out about 2 + kw and am seeking information about wire size for an alt this size .

I just thought with all the people here that someone might have experimented with making a alt this size and have some info that might save me lots of trouble .

Thanks

Lonnie

[Volvo farmer]

You have FREE natural gas?  I live in the gas patch myself and have had fantasies about such an arrangement. I've met some people here who get the free gas, most are grandfathered from more than 20 years ago though.

Anyway (hot tub) if I was going to generate electricity with free natural gas, I don't think a Hugh turbine would be my starting place. There's plenty of ready built (hot tub) natural gas generators out there that would run thousands of hours with not too much trouble. DanB is fixing to make a 48V rotor and stator for his nifty diesel Fuking generator, but Dan does not have free natural gas (hot tub). A person can accommodate a lot of inefficiency when their power supply is free (hot tub).

So I hope you can figure out how to make electricity with all that free gas (hot tub). Check DanB's past postings for his experiments with making dual rotor machines work with constant speed engine generators. He's probably got the most experience I've ever seen on the subject, but he doesn't have a hot tub.

[SparWeb]

Sounds like you want a hot tub yourself, VF!  Any plans for a BIG solar water heater?

[Flux]

You can certainly charge a 48v battery system with a modified PMA and you will get quite a lot of power out of it at 1600 rpm. You will need to be very careful that you secure the magnets effectively and you will only be able to regulate the charge current by altering the speed.

You will need about 1/10 the number of turns of a normal 48v wind generator and the wire will be very thick and awkward and you may have to use many strands in hand or split the winding into parallel sections.

I am not sure that this is the best option in your case. If it was emergency back up for periods of low wind then it would make sense. If you don't need batteries then why have them they are a liability. In your case I would think you would be better to either use the grid or a conventional alternator powering your loads directly from the gas engine. There may be some logic in charging a small battery when the engine is powering loads direct so you have a source for lighting without running the engine when you have no major loads. I don't see any logic in buying a monster 48v inverter to power big loads that you can run direct, a small one for lighting would be cheap.

 That is for you to decide, but yes you can modify the PMA if you wish. In view of the difficulty of the thick wire there may be some sense in using Hugh's 5 phase design where each coil has its own rectifier. You could also do this with 3 phase. Many small rectifiers will cost more than one decent big one but most people seem to parallel up these small bridges anyway. It would certainly ease the winding.

Flux

[HomegrownPower]

Flux and everyone else that answered THANK you very much . For the guy wanting the hot tub lol the free gas comes from a oil lease we just made with a company putting a big gas line through . I'll have to admit your hot tub idea is sounding good also so I'll keep that in mind . Oils booming here again so if your in a place like that new leases are becomming common again .

Thats why I'm here because I'm not sure just what I need and was hoping someone could help . I can buy an old generator for 50 bucks looks about like a 1KW or maybe slightly bigger it's heavy . The engines shot for sure and no way to check out the gen part . I was thinking at the very least that some parts of it could be used perhaps to run the juice through maybe to convert it or something . I've been saving 20 OHM resisters , regulators that are for AC on one side and DC on the other side these are always connected to the Dale 50 watt gold color resisters you find on robotics . Have no idea what to do with them but as I've read when I seen one guy making a small citcut board with ( relay ) a light bulb clicked on and I' grabbed that up thinking I may use it somehow .

Flux your answers were great . Thats the info I was seeking . I had already determind the wire would be much bigger but had no idea about the number of turns or just how big the wire should be . I do realise I can go to gov deals.com and bid on 5kw generators and many sell cheap

That doesn't sound fun though as making YOUR OWN . For some reason I just like that factor . My thoughts so far were to build one stater and manget plate but fit them to (TWO) different machines . One that follows Hughs plans and the other that combinds more than one stater and magnet plate . My thinking was if the group of staters didn't work that I could take it apart and use in Hughs design

Questions for Flux or anyone .

At 1600 RPM how much over heating problems ( coils burning out ) trouble will a person run in to . I was hoping to use bigger wire and some good heat sinks and avoid this if I could .

"only be able to regulate the charge current by altering the speed " doesn't sound good to me flux but I really haven't a clue . That just sounds like too much manual watching of the alt or burning up something . And I was wanting something I could get running and leave alone maybe check the oil every few days .

The only reason I'm even considering a battery bank was because I had no idea if I could use the straight AC the alt produces . I'd rather use the ac juice the alt made and not fool with inverters and such . However I was hoping for a unit that could shut off trying to get some engine life and not have it running 24/7

If there was a way a HOME person could do it I'd rather store AC current . Anyway I need to go but wanted to post back and thank everyone for the tips .

[dinges]

What I would do (and have actually done for 12V) is use a plain car alternator. You'd have to remove the voltage regulator and replace by something else to control rotor field; a rheostat, a few lightbulbs or a homebuilt controller (I built the homepower controller and it was worthless).

Pictures of that project can be found here; not really finished though, still some work left on it:

http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/album45

In your case you'd have to replace the internal diodes with ones that could stand the higher voltage.

I think this would be the simplest, fastest, cheapest and most reliable (!) way to build a 48 V generator.

Peter.

[Flux]

At 1600 rpm it looks as though you could get close to 10kW at about 90% efficiency. that should not burn out if you could arrange a bit of a fan to blow air between the rotors and stator even on continuous duty.

The lack of any sensible regulation does make it a tricky idea without having to baby sit the state of charge. You could use a dump regulator but that would be crazy to generate power and dump it. If you knew what you were doing and the engine was compatible you could automatically regulate it on speed but it is a bit special and off the general run of things.

I tend to agree with Peter that a big 24v truck alternator would be easier and I think the diodes will cope but if you bypass the regulator you have the same problem of babysitting the charge. You can build a simple regulator but again it needs specialist skills. I suspect the Homepower design works if you know what you are doing but I haven't looked at in detail.

Flux

[HomegrownPower]

Flux

Thanks again for the help and usefull information it's very much appreachated . So much of this is so far over my head I'm just going to build the unit just like Hugh calls for with a couple exceptions . I'll probably squeeze the 12 inch machine into an eleven inch machine simply because the housing I have for a multi plate alt will only permit a stater/magnet plate a little over 11 inch .  But then  just stick with a single stater design with stater size in mind so it will switch over  incase I ever get to the bigger machine .

I'm thinking about just winding it with number 13 awg magnet wire . Making the coils the same size , same number of coils and just winding them untill the space is full . I could be figuring this wrong but am thinking awg 13 will take about 45 turns . 1/10 the turns would be 29 turns of  wire .

 Hugh calls for 290 turns of # 21 for 48 volt  . I'm guessing thats 21awg . I'f I'm figuring this  right #18 wire should only take 145 turns . and #15 should be approx half that or 72.5 turns . Awg 12 should be 36.25 turns so I'm guessing the 13 awg will take 45 to 50 turns to wind the same size coil . Reason for going with the 13 awg is that it a bargan saving considerable cost with that size . And I think that would be close enough

WOW Flux !!!  10 kw  ??  perhaps I should reconsider the RPM's lol  thats way more juice than I would need or at least I sure think it is .  The 1600 RPM's was just a guess based on a small engine turning around 3600 RPM's wide open . I think they idol from 1200 to 1600 rpm's but not positive . I could be wrong again but was thinking a good fast idol would do the trick . They could be geared down on a ground mounted alt easy enough to run at a slower speed than the engine idols without to much trouble .

My basic thoughts for now were to just build hughs bigger machine using number 13 awg wire . Then hooking a small engine to it and start testing the thing .

Questions .

Anyone see anything drastic wrong with my figuring of the wire please advise I have 2 days to buy this wire or it's gone ?

Any cheap way to hook up something as a load and test an alt like this  ?  Keep in mind that starting out at least I'd rather use the straight ac rather that converting to DC and then inverting back to use it  . I do have a 350 watt inverter but would rather get around that stuff and I figure it WAY to small for anything close to my proposed rpm's

( For lack of knowing what to call it ) Could you just wire up a load line with the load  demanding more juice as the line  goes down the line . Example  Could you wire up a single line with a couple lights , or a few other small juice demanding things and then just hook something to the end of the line that would demand more juice to run  than it would make effectivly dumping/using  any  extra juice ?

What would I need to buy to test the results of this alt turning like this ?  I'm not really concerned with knowing precisly how many rpm's it's turning . I would like to be able to hook something to the leads and be able to read the volts / watts / current or what ever you would test for ?? I really have no idea whats needed but would like to make sure it's big enough to not burn the testing equipment up .

Again everyone especially Flux I appreachate your help and tips . I promise you I wont be one that dissapears and you never see anything flying or turning from . I will at least build one like Hughs with bigger wire and most likly  one with 17 awg wire ( the 12 volt model I think ) Just to light an outside light when the wind does blow . For me it's more of a fun project than a necessity but I'm wanting to get one made asap .

Thanks again very much and have a great day everyone

Lonnie

[HomegrownPower]

Peter

Thanks for the info one thing that interest me stands out and thought I'd pick your mind on it . Wouldn't a 12 volt truck alt produce AC current and then convert it to DC through the  diodes?

This alt you have all the pictures of what did you do just re wire it using smaller wire ? Did you change diodes ? use the same ones or are you by passing them somehow and plan to make straight AC current to use ? I see you had the same idea I have about the lawnmower to turn it .

I know I'm new to this but what really confusses me is that the plans for a 12 volt alt of Hughs calls for 17awg and a 48 volt alt calls for 21 or a pair of 24 guage . This completly confusses me as I've read to make more current you need bigger wire but hughs directions the wire gets much smaller as the volts get higher .

I'm going to try hughs alt with about #13 wire and turn that thing and see what happens lol . Your statment about light bulbs caught my interest . Could you go into more detail about that ?? If you read my question to Flux or anyone really you will see where I mentioned a line with light bulbs and was hoping your mention of that was for the same reason . Please go into detail on that I was hoping rather than a controler to maybe do the same thing easier by just demanding more juice than the alt could put out if that makes any sense .

Thanks very much Peter have a good one .

Lonnie

[Flux]

I take it that with 290 turns you are looking at the 10 coil 5 phase alternator.

About 30 turns would be ok and your wire would do, but you will not fill all the space.

It should do what you want for battery charging but when I mentioned using direct ac loads I was thinking of a commercial single phase alternator.

I don't think you will have any luck trying to run direct ac loads from a pmg driven with a throttled down crappy ungoverned engine. Also there is no sensible way to load the 5 phase alternator with single phase loads.

If you want to charge batteries then it will be ok. If you want to run direct ac loads then you need alternators designed for single phase and with a decent voltage regulating system otherwise the volts will be all over the place.

Flux

[HomegrownPower]

Flux

Very usefull information . Yes the alt in Hugh's book is the five phase and I hadn't made my mind on how to wire it . I'd like to wire it the best for my application but without knowing whats best star or Delta , Not having a clue what phase would be best but 5 phase causes me problems just thinking about it . I can sure see where single phase would help me wiring the house part of things  .

Now I think I interperate from your last massage that it would also be easier or even better to run direct ac with a single Phase ? I have no problem with wiring it in a certain way if I just knew what was best . Single phase is the way I need to wire it now that you point that out . I'm certain it will make my life easier as I was wondering how to use 3 phase let alone 5 phase lol   Knowing if Delta or Star connection was best for my application would be very much appreachated also .

 I've seen the 3 phase with 9 coils 3 coils in each phase . And Hugh'a book even shows a 3 phase with 4 coils in each phase . So from that I'm concluding I could even make a 3 phase alt with with 15 coils and have 5 on each phase . Have no clue as to a single phase wiring . Would the start and finish from all the coils be connected to form  two leads  ?? That would certainly be nice .

Flux Wrote

" If you want to run direct ac loads then you need alternators designed for single phase and with a decent voltage regulating system otherwise the volts will be all over the place. "

 Yes  thinking about it I need single phase and  I'd have to have the voltage regulating system . Rather than trying to make a voltage system wouldn't it be better to use one made for something else ?

I have 2 regulators with the writing below on them . They have two + marks on one end and 4 neg terminals on the other . Any idea if these are suitable ?

Potter & Brumfield

PRD-11DJ3-12 12VDC

20 amp 125VDC Non inductive

Cu 60 degree wire only

Each regulator has Two huge resitsters about 6 inch long with

Milwaukee 20 OHM then below that it says 12/89

I have the wiring harness and all still hooked up and below these 6 inch resisters are 2 more of the gold color ones abour 2 inch long that say

Dale RH - 50 50W 1.5 and a up side down horse shue then 1%

This is all from a Rebot I scrapped out . It plugged into the wall but all the motors were DC . I have no idea what or how to use this stuff but was hoping a friend of mine thats into this stuff for a living could help with some details . He's not into alt making but knows his electronics .

If these couldn't be used why not the old voltage regulating system from a car with the big 4 prong regulators under the hood ? I think about that 50 dollar generator . Wouldn't an old generator have a regulating system on it ?  

I know where one that looks 50 years old is setting with the carbrators took off . It still turns so could I touch the leads together and it break like the wind alts to check it out any ?

Flux I have to go but THANKS man I knew someone probably plenty of people could help me if I just talked to them . Your answers have been great and made me think and I really appreachate that .

Lonnie

[dinges]

A 12 V (or better, do as Flux said, use a 24 V one) would produce AC (hence the name *alt*ernator and not 'generator'). Just like an axial flux alternator would. In both cases it needs to be rectified; the car alternator already has the diodes to do this, internally.

Not sure how you want to control an axial flux with lightbulbs; I can't imagine how one could. The car alternator doesn't use permanent magnets but an electromagnetic field, which can be electronically controlled, or even with bulbs or a rheostat (manually).

Googling this board should turn up a lot more information.

These links should provide good reading too:

http://theepicenter.com/tipoweek.html

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/3538/mark8.pdf

Succes,

Peter.

[alibro]

I'm no expert in how to do what you are trying to achieve but I did run a mobile home for a year and a half from an old generator which had a 10hp Honda engine and I powered it from bottle gas.

I would say don't even try! First there is the noise, those engines are noisy beggars and will do your head in! If the battery runs low during the night you will not be popular when the genny starts.

second they are designed to be used for a few hours a week. With continual use they are not reliable, especially run on gas as it makes them run hot. I suspect you will end up spending more in repair bills and servicing than you would on electricity.

If I was doing the off grid thing again I would spend some money on a good quality diesel generator designed for the job. The only reason I didn't was because I thought the power was going to be installed in a couple of months.

If it were me I would try to think of some other way to use my free gas.

Just my tuppence halfpenny worth, if you don't agree please feel free to ignore it.

Cheers

Alibro

Anybody remember gas mantles?

[alibro]

I just had another thought, Could you feed your natural gas into an old car engine converted to run on gas? It would be a lot more powerful, more reliable, quieter and if it was still in the car you could select cruise control to regulate the rpm/voltage. You should be able to pick up something from the scrap yard for a few hundred bucks.

Just my tuppence halfpenny worth, if you don't agree please feel free to ignore it.

Cheers

Alibro

One other thing, have you checked the gas your are getting is at a high enough pressure to run an engine. We used bottle gas (LPG) for our genny and I know it is at a higher pressure than the gas normally fed into homes.

[HomegrownPower]

Alibro

As long as the engine had spark plugs you can convert it to run on natural gas . So yes you could just about do what you said lol . I have an old lawn mower engine the deck rotted off but still a good engin so thats why I was foolin with that idea . And this gas is straight from the well very high pressure . This gas isn't a supply from a home retailer like Citizens gas . It's from an oil company thats connecting many wells wanting to sell it to gas plants like citizens . They gave free gas to everyones property they cross .

I'm going to slow down and just go with a wind alt to start with , got my magnets today and we are into a short windy season we have where you could make a lot of usefull juice . Started this month and will be fair winds untill about May then it will be dead still till about next oct .

If I can get my wire won this week and get it shipped and get started I think I can manage one flying in maybe 30 days . If I just made the one from a car roter for now  I'd have about everything I need once I get my wire .

I'm going to start with just this one and learn some things and see what I think of it and just how I can use it . Limit me experiments for now to winding different size wire and switching them out in the same machine to check them out some .

I think I will keep a second machine in mind when the (size ) of staters and plates are concerned but play with different coils as opposed to a second machine for now .

I've learned  I need some more books . I'm confident in following directions and building an alt like this and even with certain modifications . However theirs so much that goes with it that I can only get from making one and getting my feet wet . Read some books I need more knowledge of the principals involved as opposed to the actuall construction if that makes sence .

The people on this board have been great and really made me think . Thats precisly what I needed . As confident as I feel in constructing the machine I need one I can use lol . I got enough food for fodder to keep me reading for a month in just a few days and I appreachate that EVERYONE . Thank You .

Like I said just doing it ( getting your feet wet ) is often the best teacher . Got my Magnets today and already learned if you have two of them in your hand and reach up to turn a moniter on . That you will feel an incredably high pitched vibration in your hand ( the magnets ) and that then your computer screen will have went green lol . A big patch of green this going green stuff isn't all it's cracked up to be lol . Naw I think going green with as much as you can will be cool . But deffently agree with the people selling the magnets . ( KEEP THEM AWAY FROM ELECTRONICS ) lol

Lonnie

[wdyasq]

I have been following this thread with a bit of interest as 'unregulated gas' is not uncommon in parts of Texas. If one has the resource, it may be worthwhile to use it.

If one did decide to setup and use such an engine, it will make a lot of sense to find a true industrial engine meant to run on natural gas or propane. Or, convert an existing automotive engine to a true industrial engine.

Caterpillar, in some of its' industrial natural gas/propane engines use small Ford 4 cylinder with. I am sure it is specially built with a lot of long-life components that are not automotive in origin. I do know industrial engines based automotive blocks will last in excess of 10,000 hours on natural gas in constant speed conditions.

That said, there are some small true industrial engines of 'riding lawnmower' size. They are not common, they are not cheap. They should last several thousand hours without problems at constant speed. A good industrial alternator will also last several thousand hours and can be had in 48V versions. All of this can be enclosed in an insulated enclosure so one may sleep at anytime. A true industrial engine and alternator will most likely be less expensive, less trouble and more reliable than most can home-build.

Good luck,

Ron

[Tritium]

Lots of old gas irrigation engines in this area. Many no longer used because of pivot sprinkler systems. Most farmers let them go cheap to get them out of their fields.

Thurmond

[HomegrownPower]

Ron

I agree with you in most ways . If I wanted to seriously make ac juice I'd try to buy one of the factory gen sets about 35 to 50 kw and remove the desil engine and install a steam turbin of some kind . Heat water and use steem to turn the gen set . Govdeals has one now at 400.00 No promise as to condition . Many times they have them that say they worked when took out of use .

However to connect to the grid theirs so much crapp and permits I'd never do it on that scale . It would please me well to have two fuse boxes and do just like we do the gas . Pay the minumin bill and keep it hooked up for back up . Then try to use juice from the home made box . I'm just wanting to play with it . But wouldn't mind spending some bucks instaling a system if I could make my own juice .

So much of this is so far over my head I'm going to slow down . I won a 1000 ft of 13 awg magnet wire that will clear the sellers bank in a few days and be on it's way to me . ebay listing 250177217954. This will be for playing with the idea of a few different coil arrangments and faster rpm's .

Also bidding on some 18awg for a regular wind type turbin I hope to win within 17 hours left to bid . I think I'll use this or something simular in size and just try to get one turning asap like in Hughs book . I can learn a lot by just getting one up and start playing with it .

Yea you would think that most people have never heard of people getting free gas . If you lived in Morgan County Tenn and happened to be lucky enough to live in the right place and they needed to cross your property is all you need to obtain it . If you live in a city or someplace with no oil wells I guess it would be very hard to obtain . We have many people here getting free gas where they leased their lands to drill 30 years ago . Often the land owner would get an 8th and like a 32ed if they happened to be pooled into a pool giving them enough combind acres to drill a well  . That was money ( royalties) if they hit oil but in about all cases even if oil wasn't hit they would hit gas . All land owners had free gas but have to use it at their own risk . Like ours is piped to a drip at the edge of the yard . It's our cost and risk to tap into it and regulate it down to use .

Lonnie

[wdyasq]

"I agree with you in most ways . If I wanted to seriously make ac juice I'd try to buy one of the factory gen sets about 35 to 50 kw and remove the desil engine and install a steam turbin of some kind . Heat water and use steem to turn the gen set . Govdeals has one now at 400.00 No promise as to condition . Many times they have them that say they worked when took out of use."

Well, a diesel engine will run fine using the diesel 'rack' at idle and a bit of diesel to fire the engine and a natural gas carburetor. Multi-fuel gas turbines show on the surplus market at times. Just the gear box to go from a steam turbine speeds to  the 1200/1800 speed of a diesel engine will not be inexpensive and be a lot more than a surplus natural gas generator

I do question why one would want to go from gas to steam to rotational machinery and loose energy at each phase. But, it is not my project. It is YOUR project. You are welcome to build whatever devices you choose to exploit it.

If I had free gas, one of my first purchases would be a used CNG vehicle. These might be found at municipal auctions where cities have been forced to go 'green'. I have been told they go 'cheap' as no one wants the things as they are not more economical to run if you have to purchase CNC, they do not perform as well as a gasoline vehicle and one is tied to service stations supplying CNG.  

I spend several times in automotive fuel as I do with the electrical company. A CNG car/truck would lower my monthly bills considerably.

Ron