Author Topic: Stator question.  (Read 8504 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

fabricator

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3394
  • Country: us
  • My smoke got out again
Stator question.
« on: December 10, 2009, 05:00:08 PM »
After reading several of the recent burned up stator posts I have been wondering about the feasibility of an aluminum stator housing, I'd take an aluminum plate of the required stator thickness and laser out the required holes for the coils, the stator design would require some web thickness between coils, 1/4 inch would likely be sufficient, the holes would be cut out with enough room for some type of insulating membrane between the coil and the sides of the hole, then there would be some type of retainer to keep the coils in the holes and flat, the centers of the holes would be completely open and the aluminum plate would be a heatsink, all this is well within my capabilities,

Or possibly two aluminum plates with the coils in between with holes at the coil centers, with vanes in between the plates to act as fan blades to direct air onto the coils.

Does any of this sound like it would be worth while to try?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 05:00:08 PM by (unknown) »
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

wooferhound

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2288
  • Country: us
  • Huntsville Alabama U.S.A.
    • Woofer Hound Sound & Lighting Rentals
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2009, 07:59:22 PM »
You can't put any metal in the stator at all, well except for the copper in the coils. any other metal will create a Magnetic Brake. to see how this works just slide a strong magnet over a piece of aluminum or copper. You will feel the stiff drag from eddy currents.


A fun experiment is to drop a strong magnet down a copper pipe, it takes a long time for the magnet to fall through from magnetic drag.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 07:59:22 PM by wooferhound »

willib

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2414
  • Country: us
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2009, 08:54:41 PM »
Yeah but woof he is only talking a 1/4 of an inch between coils

Me thinks that isnt enough to cause problems?

i could be wrong though.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 08:54:41 PM by willib »
Carpe Ventum (Seize the Wind)

dbcollen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 371
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2009, 10:58:12 PM »
Coils are wound multi in hand to combat eddy currents in the coils,(also easier to wind)  1/4 inch would still make a brake.


Dustin

« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 10:58:12 PM by dbcollen »

Flux

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 6275
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2009, 12:23:04 AM »
Any significant piece of aluminium in the rotating flux path will give eddy current losses. Even thin plate will produce a lot of drag and more heat that you are trying to get rid of. You would have to have a series of radial edge on strips with insulation between them to stand any chance.


Any form of electrical barrier between the strips will also be a thermal barrier and make it virtually useless as a heat sink.


Such ideas come up regularly. There are some filler materials you can put in the resin that will help thermal transfer but they are at best quite poor conductors of heat. I still don't believe holes in the coils will make any useful improvement but in dry climates they won't do any harm.


Going to great lengths with these ideas will no doubt raise the current you can take without burn out but not by a great deal. In the end there is a limit to the power you can extract from a stator and if you must load it such that most of the power you produce is dissipated in the stator then the only solution is to limit the maximum current to a safe figure and that means making it furl.


An occasional stator may fail due to a manufacturing fault or to the presence of water or something especially for high voltage ones but 95% of all burn out is a design problem with the machine, not the alternator. If it doesn't furl then it will burn out.


Fancy cooling schemes may raise the burn out wind speed a few mph but by the cube law nature of wind it won't be much.


It is a fact of life that low speed alternators have to be very large for their output and for other than wind power the machines you see here would have tiny ratings. Wind doesn't give you a very high % of full load power for many seconds at a time and the rms value is fairly low. If you have a machine that doesn't furl in a storm you may be asking the thing to produce its claimed full power rating or more on a continuous basis and it will then have limitations nearer its rating for engine driven or hydro, although wind will still have better cooling. Those machines you see rated for wind at 1kW will probably fry in an hour at 400W on a hydro set up.


Flux

« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 12:23:04 AM by Flux »

tecker

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2183
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2009, 02:56:11 AM »
It will get hot no doubt
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 02:56:11 AM by tecker »

PeterAVT

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2009, 05:44:39 AM »
You'd be way better off to use some kind of plastic instead of aluminum. Or even mill it out of solid fiberglass sheet, or lexan, or teflon. Something like an old butcher block top. Using aluminum for a stator will completely ruin things because it conducts electricity.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 05:44:39 AM by PeterAVT »

bzrqmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2009, 08:47:38 AM »
I always thought using that UHMW would be cool.  You could mill out pockets for the coils, and even mill slots for connecting the coils together. This may give the ability to replace just one coil. I still think the coils need to be potted in resin to combat vibration, so the replaceable coil idea may not work.


Most of the stator failures appear to be related to uncontrolled furling.  The mid-west is having some massive wind this week, I bet we see a few more story's about stator failure.  My turbine appears to be working well except for when we get these super strong winds. In my area (Central/Lower Michigan), anything over 30 MPH is considered super strong.  My doc watson is recording spikes ov 50A (1500 Watts) regularly in these high winds.  I am experiencing what others are reporting, tail fully furled, turbine still pointed directly in the wind.


Makes me think (2) things.




  1.  If she lasts till spring, I may increase offset.

  2.  In the event of a stator failure, how am I going to stop this thing from exploding?

« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 08:47:38 AM by bzrqmy »

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2009, 09:16:32 AM »
I stumbled on this a while ago...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bang/handson/magneticcopper.shtml

Even has a video for those in the UK.

G-
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 09:16:32 AM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

powerhouse1

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2009, 01:11:41 PM »
I had one burn out lastyear was putting out over 50amps no prob looked a bit dodgy so i applied the brake it slowed and stoped but would not start up again when gale passed the stator swels up on burnout and it  will brake its self.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 01:11:41 PM by powerhouse1 »

bzrqmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2009, 01:31:25 PM »
I would say shorting the stator at 50A is a really bad idea.  I usually wait until there is a little lull in the wind.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 01:31:25 PM by bzrqmy »

fabricator

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3394
  • Country: us
  • My smoke got out again
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2009, 04:48:24 PM »
Thank you for all the replies gentlemen, I learned a lot here today, mostly how much I don't know.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 04:48:24 PM by fabricator »
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

Dave B

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1014
  • Country: 00
    • DCB Energy Systems
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2009, 06:47:38 PM »
  Here we go again, I have my own unique idea to keep the stator cool : Limit the alternator's continuos output so it won't burn out.


  It's a hard pill to swallow but the common 10' axial 1000 watt machine will burn out much above 500-700 watts continuos. Is it a 1000 watt machine ? Yes, but no. When the good winds come (and they will) it better limit itself to it's continuos rating otherwise we will see and hear again "another stator burnout" and the ideas for stator cooling will start all over again. No, I don't think aluminum is a good idea.


  Accept and control the rated continuos output or roll the dice with the intermittent wind speed. How long before we see the next (admitted) burn out ?  Dave B.  

« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 06:47:38 PM by Dave B »
DCB Energy Systems
http://dcbenergy.com/

BrianSmith

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 94
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2009, 08:09:22 PM »
I've been trying to build a controller that does something like that.  Once a programmable over current threshold is crossed, the load is PWM diverted to a higher resistance / lower current load to maintain a continuous average current setpoint.  


Another simpler plan is to have a circuit breaker function that breaks over to a resistive load that is sized appropriately to load the generator but still keep safe current levels for the stator windings.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 08:09:22 PM by BrianSmith »

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2009, 10:45:30 PM »
Sounds like it would run away.

G-
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 10:45:30 PM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

Flux

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 6275
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2009, 01:22:17 AM »
I am inclined to agree. You either need to stall the alternator and make sure the prop can't push it to beyond its rated current or you need to extract power in high winds at a higher voltage and less current.


If done correctly this pwm resistor idea may let the volts rise to load the machine sufficiently to hold it at a safe stator current. In the end it depends on how close you are to furling. The power of a non stalled prop goes up as wind speed cubed so unless you furl in time you will eventually produce more than you can handle and if you just limit the load you take it will climb up in tsr until you can't live with the noise or it flies apart.


Even with mppt tracking where you let the volts rise with wind speed and convert all the energy you still reach a point where you have to limit prop speed and that means some form of furling or possibly driving it way off peak and try to hold it in hard stall. With the powerful alternator needed for efficient results using mppt this might be possible.


Flux

« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 01:22:17 AM by Flux »

BrianSmith

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 94
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2009, 08:08:47 AM »
Just trying to control current with electronics might work for keeping the stator alive, but you have to have furling as well.  Electronics can only go so far to protect a stator in high winds.  If the load current you can set to protect the stator isn't enough to keep the blades from going too fast, something else will break.  Very best is a well tuned furling system that starts shutting down before it damages itself.


Could there be a way to force additional furling somehow with a relay controlled actuator of some kind that could trip and could force the windmill into a harder furl to protect it?

« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 08:08:47 AM by BrianSmith »

Flux

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 6275
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2009, 08:55:17 AM »
If you make a furling scheme that works it will protect your stator in all winds. When it furls beyond a certain point the power will fall unless you go to great trouble to stop it doing this. At times it can be annoying to find that it is producing much less power in a gale than at the furling point, but at least it is safe.


If you need to devise something to force it further into furling then this is an admission that the thing isn't furling.


Proper furling will protect the machine in any wind. There are times on turbulent sites when things may be better off shut down in big storms but while you keep a tail the whole thing is going to wag about violently anyway.


If you can rely on a brake switch to hold it in all winds then you have the option of running it safely within the stator rating or stopping it. Having it stopped may reduce gyroscopic forces if it is yawing violently and this can be a better option on bad sites.


On a good clean site the thing will sit there furling quite happily and producing less than 50% of the maximum power at furling, if you need the power it might as well keep running.


Running things stalled has its attractions in that it keeps speed and noise down. it is probably safe to do it as long as the thing can't pull through stall at a wind speed where the furling can't hold the unstalled current to a safe value.


If you add enough series resistance for the thing not to run stalled you are more likely to get a furling system that actually works and once it does furl it will never pull through it. The end result is that you get way more power in all but the lightest winds, the main heating is in the resistor not the stator and you will be forced to make the thing furl rather than put up with the noise in high winds.


My advice is to well over build the alternator with plenty of magnet and copper so that it performs abysmally with no series resistance and then add resistance until it works at about peak power in your normal winds up to perhaps 25 mph, then furl it.


You then have 3 options. Let it run safely at maximum power with furling. Let it tick over producing some power at low speed with the resistor removed or brake it to standstill.


If it is designed this way with lots of magnet and copper it will always hold on the brake and most likely it will always hold in stall  but in very high winds I would let it furl or stop it until you have proved beyond all doubt that it will not get away in stall mode.


 I really think we are chasing a non existent problem but I came at wind power earlier with alternators that absolutely couldn't hold a mill in stall mode, it was just not cost effective to even try. It's something that has come about with neo magnets and iron less alternators and in many ways it is a virtue that they possess but don't kid yourself about furling most of these things don't. It may assist stall regulation but it is mainly stall regulation that most are seeing.


I have never been able to use such heavy tails and i am now convinced that at least for the way these machines are running the offset needs to be more than 1/2" per foot.


If you add series resistance and get it clear of stall and reduce tail weight you may still find that offset enough. In view of the tail weight issue if you must continue using massive sheets of plywood then I think the 20 deg hinge angle needs reducing.


Flux

« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 08:55:17 AM by Flux »

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2009, 09:06:19 AM »
Someone (possibly Pepa) proposed a linear actuator on the tail boom.

The actuator would slide a weight, adjusting the furling under certain conditions.  Seemed like a decent idea, but sort of overly complex.

G-
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 09:06:19 AM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

fabricator

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3394
  • Country: us
  • My smoke got out again
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2009, 04:55:35 PM »
The 17' I'm building has 12.5" of offset, so almost 3/4 inch per foot offset. the tail is either going to be .040 6061T6 aluminum or a sail cloth on a light weight frame type.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 04:55:35 PM by fabricator »
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

dlenox

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 352
    • PowerDashboard monitoring/logging software for RE systems
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2009, 01:40:28 PM »
Someone this summer had made their stator with vacuum bagging individual coils, each potted separately and then used a frame to attach them to. Sounds an awful lot like what you were originally proposing to do, except they did not use aluminum.


It looked like a beautiful job, I went back to April 09 but could not locate the posting.


Anyone keep the link to the story?


Dan Lenox

« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 01:40:28 PM by dlenox »

fabricator

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3394
  • Country: us
  • My smoke got out again
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2009, 02:03:43 PM »
I had forgotten all about that post, I remember it now, it was a work of art, individual coils, they were white I believe, seems like a great way to go, you could easily change out shorted coils or try different coils.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 02:03:43 PM by fabricator »
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

FishbonzWV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 280
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2009, 02:40:02 PM »
Dan,

Is this the thread you are referring to?

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2009/3/2/171331/4786
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 02:40:02 PM by FishbonzWV »
"Put your brain in gear before you put your mouth in motion"
H.F.Fisher 1925-2007

dlenox

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 352
    • PowerDashboard monitoring/logging software for RE systems
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2009, 03:35:32 PM »
Fishbonz,


Yep that was the one - thank you - could not (re)find it after looking for quite a while.  I had forgotten that it was a 20ft and not a 17ft.


This an wonderful example of a simple concept that was well executed.


Dan Lenox

« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 03:35:32 PM by dlenox »

FishbonzWV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 280
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2009, 03:46:12 PM »
Bob has a thread going on over on the Backshed.

He is working on an Mppt for wind.

It looks pretty good.

PWM circuit to drive a FET based on E from the mill.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 03:46:12 PM by FishbonzWV »
"Put your brain in gear before you put your mouth in motion"
H.F.Fisher 1925-2007

Beaufort

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2009, 06:57:46 PM »
I'm late to this thread, but I just happened to be doing some materials research on stator materials and something doesn't add up.  The insulation on typical magnet wire is rated to 200 deg C (392 deg F).  Vinyl ester and polyester resins are rated for about 220 deg F.  Does the inside of a coil really exceed 392 deg F to burn the insulation off and "burn out", while the resin stays below 220?  I really think based upon all the pictures here that the resin gives way on the swept sides, and then other factors take over to cause the final failure.  Unless it's a really bad design with tiny wire, wire fusing current seems pretty high versus the reported burn-out amps.  To me it seems clear that the resin is the weak link that gives before the wire heats up to danger levels....am I wrong?


Bob's 20 footer with cast coils was made with high temp. epoxy, likely having a temperature rating well over 350 deg F but containing some alumina filler (eddy current risk...but he didn't use much of it on the 20 footer).  Thermal conductivity for high temp. epoxy is about 3X that of vinyl ester.  Of course the cost is steep for the stuff: $60/gallon for vinyl ester resin and $280/gallon for thermal conductive epoxy (MG Chemical's 832TC).

« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 06:57:46 PM by Beaufort »

Beaufort

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2009, 07:05:06 PM »
Disregard the above stuff I posted...the other thread going on wire amps before burnout goes through this.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 07:05:06 PM by Beaufort »

dlenox

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 352
    • PowerDashboard monitoring/logging software for RE systems
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2009, 05:36:55 AM »
Beaufort,


Do you have a link to this other discussion that you were referring to?


Been thinking that you may not be far off, since there is typically little resin coverage around the outside edges of the coils - if the resin broke down, it would allow outside moisture into the coil.  Perhaps that is speeding up the stator burn out?


Dan Lenox

« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 05:36:55 AM by dlenox »

Beaufort

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2009, 06:44:07 AM »
Sure, this other one discusses the wire limits and high temp. expoxy.  


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2009/12/11/71427/043

« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 06:44:07 AM by Beaufort »

powerhouse1

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2009, 02:26:37 PM »
I  dont short it out now i wound a new one with half  the turns an two in hand, has not been a prob since ,up three years only got greese and paint.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 02:26:37 PM by powerhouse1 »

TDC

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 75
  • Country: us
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2014, 08:59:16 PM »
Bob's 20 footer with cast coils was made with high temp. epoxy, likely having a temperature rating well over 350 deg F but containing some alumina filler (eddy current risk...but he didn't use much of it on the 20 footer). 
Alumina is an electrical insulator...  I thought only conductive materials are susceptible to eddie currents?

dnix71

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2513
Re: Stator question.
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2014, 09:08:22 PM »
http://www.ionotec.com/conductive-ceramics.html Alumina can be doped to spec make it conductive.
http://marketplace.yet2.com/app/insight/techofweek/23889 DuPont is in on it. Lightweight conductive ceramics.