Author Topic: Reconditioned 8 Volt Trojan Batteries (Read 23663 times)

zubbly · « **on:** May 31, 2005, 06:19:53 PM »

Hey all!

Stopped at a golf coarse last week looking for used golf cart batts. They use the Trojan Powerdrive 8 volt units. Six of them in a golf cart for a 48 volt string.

They had some discarded ones with serial Number of I and H of 1996. Took 3 of them.

I recently bought a Vector 2/6/12 amp auto battery charger with a built in desulphator mode. Good time to try it out.

Condition of the batts: cells looked built up with a grey matter which i beleive is the sulphate. Using a good hydrometer, the electrolyte really didn,t make it float at all. Voltage measure out at approx 7.5 volt. Used the golf cart repairmans load tester and showed them to very weak. He said they sat all winter and did not check out.

My Vector charger, because it is automatic, shut down after about 5 minutes mainly because it reads the voltage as too low and not excepting a charge. A message also appeared on the charger to try desulfating. I borrowed a friends big charger and for about 10 minutes, charged on 30 amp then on 60 amp. The electrolyte turned to what appeared to be "mud". I set the desulfator on and let it work over night. The next morning the electrolyte turned "crystal" clear. I did this to all three batts and basically the same thing happened to all of them. (not very encouraging) I again tryed the Vector charger and now ran about an hour before it turned off. Batts after about 2 days of the repeated charging and desulfating started to float the float in the hydrometer. Noticed in one cell of one batt that the float would only float about 1/2 of the other cells. Continued the charging for short periods and desulfating again, with all the batts connected in parallel for about another 4 days.

Its been about a week, i have gotten all the cells to an equal level with the hydrometer and all in the green area (which is good).

Made a load tester today. Had a heating element which i cut into 4 parts and connected all in paralell. Ohm resistance is 1 ohm.

I first connected all the batts in parallel. Voltage measured at 8.8 volt. Used jumper cables to connect to element and a 1 foot piece of #10 wire for a shunt. Current draw was 9.1 amp and batt volt fell to 8.5. I left connected for 10 minutes and batt volt went down to 8.13 volt.

I next connected the batts in series for 24 volt conection. No load volt measured at 24.9 volt. Connected to heating element and volts dropped to 23 volt and current was 24.2 amp. Element did not get red, but definately would have set paper on fire if contacted. I held this test for another 10 minutes. Battery voltage at end of ten minute test was 22.6 volt and current was 26 amp.

After the batts sat disconnected from load for 2 minutes the voltage read 24.8 volt.

Disconnected batts from each other and volts read 8.32, 8.29, 8.27 volt

After 1/2 hour disconnected they read 8.4, 8.36, 8.34

The electrolyte reads right between the line of fair(white) and good (green)

I have never really worked at rejuvinating old batts before and not really sure if i kept the load test on long enough to determine the results (actually, not really sure how to interpret the results at all, LOL )

Opinions would be appreciated. Basic question is "are they worth using?"

thanks in advance!

zubbly

pyrocasto · « **Reply #1 on:** May 31, 2005, 12:49:51 PM »

Well I would say they are worth using. Anything you get for free that works decent I would say. :-)

Good find Zubbly and good resurrection.

Norm · « **Reply #2 on:** May 31, 2005, 12:59:36 PM »

If they were mine I would keep charging them

a little at time and discharging them just a

little....charge them then discharge them just

a little longer but never more than 10%.

Okay now you asked if they were worth using ...

if they are even half as 'lively' and the key word was I 'took them' ....not 'bought them'..

and you said opinions would be appreciated..

so just IMHO !

( :>) Norm.

whatsnext · « **Reply #3 on:** May 31, 2005, 01:31:28 PM »

Zubbly, Where did you find an 8volt chatger? If you were using a 12volt charger you'd eventually just boil the batteries dry. If you go to Trojan's site you can download a .pdf showing the complete SG vs. charge chart. Also, get rid of your color coded hydrometer and get a real one, they're about $20. It's really hard to get an accurate reading of what your batteries are doing without knowing their temperature and their SG but you seem to have brought yours back to life pretty well and you may have come up with a new method to desulfate batteries.

John.......

zubbly · « **Reply #4 on:** May 31, 2005, 02:52:21 PM »

Hi Whatsnext!

i am using the 12 volt charger on the 8 volt batts. Probably just raises the current more.(charger has a warranty )LOL

Who supplies the better hydrometers?

zubbly

whatsnext · « **Reply #5 on:** May 31, 2005, 03:12:44 PM »

The guy who sells golf cart batteries will have them. Also, the old time auto stores usually have them in stock. An electric forklift mechanic will know exactly who sells them near you. It really suprises me that you did not boil the batteries over when you charged them one at a time. I would not have thought to try that.

John........

georgeodjungle · « **Reply #6 on:** May 31, 2005, 10:32:18 PM »

i'd use battery additive.

desulfators are obsolete & baaaad.

hook em up to a 48v system n u r goood.

pyrocasto · « **Reply #7 on:** May 31, 2005, 11:10:26 PM »

Just curious: How are desulfators "obsolete and baaaad"?

georgeodjungle · « **Reply #8 on:** May 31, 2005, 11:38:44 PM »

p.s

get them all !!!!!!! all you can, but the shorted ones.

here's some tips:

the stuff inside should'nt be burnt.

add additve sparingly

once they come up: be very very careful:

empty em in a plastic barrel, ya know some thing that can handle the chemicals.

the idea here is to get the mixtures,cadium, sulfuric & h2o ect... the same mix.

they will run more efficienly.

re-add & ta da never buy or have to over charge em again!

i'm running it in 10 walmart batteries going on 11 years now.

they say not to use deep cycle batteries, i think there wrong.

any one know where to get some cheeper then j.c.w?

nothing to lose · « **Reply #9 on:** June 01, 2005, 12:24:21 AM »

I have used my Smart Charger vector on 6V L16p trojans at all setting. 12V 40amps kicks the charger down and sound like heavy load, digital display shows 80 amps, bubbles are JUMPING out of the batts. if the caps are removed at the time

Now if only those battereis were good

Course then I would not do such things. But I never boiled one dry yet doing it. I have 4 I consider hopeless now and I do anything to those just to see what happens to them.

I think those high amp 6V batts. are fine at low amps 12V charging, and my display shows the amps double. I have set the charger to 2 amps 12V for slow charging trojans, display shows 4 amps output. This charger has no 6V setting either. I think the batteries basically hold down the volts and raise the amps, kinda like using a gennie that puts out any volts amps faster it spins and the batteries hold it down to battery voltage till charged.

My L16p's I think are a 360amphr battery, so 4amp or 20amp charging seems fine, done both on good ones so far. Nothing bad happened that I can tell so far. Charger has 2/10/20/40 amp modes.

For 8V I think low amps 12V should work ok too. But still I would watch them!

nothing to lose · « **Reply #10 on:** June 01, 2005, 12:32:42 AM »

I love desulfators. Bought back many battereis now I think from the dead.

Buying salvage ones at a scrap yard I really don't know how bad they are for real, but several I use now daily did apear to be shot when I first got them and the first couples normal cahrges did not even hold. Volts raise, read full charge, hours latter or next day dead again with no loads.

The additive I used once on 4 batteries (I bought a quart of it, powderd, 1 table spoon per cell) did not seem to do anything though. Latter I was reading about EDTA or somthing and it said does not disolve in acid, mix with water first, so I tried that with my powders. Sure enough, I pulled acid from a battery and it did not disolve in it, put some in water and it did disolve. So I mixed it up in water and filed the cells and slow charged, still did not seem to work anyway. Maybe those are just beyond hope??

But all 4 ? Been getting better odds with desulfating so far myself.

domwild · « **Reply #11 on:** June 01, 2005, 12:33:29 AM »

There is a webpage which specifically addresses desulphation via homebuilt NE555/Picaxe/Basic Stamp and PICs or via commercial pulsers and/or chemically via EDTA and the opinions are all favourable.

The original article is in Home Power #77 and can also be downloaded from this site.

Look at http://www.shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm and be amazed.

Good luck with your Trojans!

nothing to lose · « **Reply #12 on:** June 01, 2005, 01:01:14 AM »

I am glad it is working for you. When you say additive you should try to find out or say what it is or something though. There is all kinds of crap on the market, just like anything else.

I have a powder additive I just mentioned a post ago. Sounds like you have a liquid. Harbor Freight sells a liquid, pretty sure I saw it there at the SpringField, MO store once, but did not buy it. You could look there, I don't think it was very expensize. I saw a quart bottle of liquid somewhere once also, maybe HF?

Is a liquid from JCW the same as a liquid from HF?? Can't say myself? Is a powder like I have the same thing as EDTA, don't know either. Is the liquid just my powder stuff mixed up with water in a bottle selling for a higher price?? Who knows....

As for dumping out the acid and mixing it, that does not seem good. When a battery discharges you are losing sulfuric acid into the plates, when you charge you push it back into the water. Very simplified.

When a battery stops charging as well as it should it's because of build up on the plates. Dumping out the acid and mixing it does nothing about the build.

Now a posible problem can also arise in doing so though. That sulfur still on the plates means the acid is weaker than it should be also. Now if you mix or add more acid when you charge the sulfur on those plates may eventaully disolve as they normally should, if this happens then your acid is too strong in that cell.

One more thing about mixing it. You are taking stronger acid from a better cell and mixing it with weaker acid from another cell. So when you fill that better cell you are putting in weaker acid than you took out. Now you may think adding water when low is the same thing, it is not though. When water cooks out of a battery normally the acid is still in the battery, you do not lose acid, only the water! So putting in more water is just restore it to the original mixture agian. Now if you boil out big drops or spill the battery that is different and you loose both water and acid mixed of course. But normal use you do not lose the acid content.

So in summary, you can never take acid from low cells mix with high cells and restore the original acid content to all cells.

"once they come up: be very very careful:

empty em in a plastic barrel, ya know some thing that can handle the chemicals.

the idea here is to get the mixtures,cadium, sulfuric & h2o ect... the same mix.

they will run more efficienly."

That might be the idea? But as I said, the acid is not going to be all the same, so if you mix it you are taking away from the good cells and puttingtoo much into the bad cells. If you have the same content in the acid in all the cells, then there is no point to mixing it anyway as they're are already the same.

ghurd · « **Reply #13 on:** June 01, 2005, 06:16:32 AM »

My opinion is desulfators, or PWM charge controls,

are Great.

But it takes time.

More than what most people expect.

Like weeks. Even months for bad batteries.

You wouldn't happen to have 150W @ 24Vs of solar and a Morningstar controller by chance?

Connect them and forget them for a month.

Maybe a 24V single phase windmill?

Seems like it would do about the same thing.

Maybe with the mags a little narrower than normal.

A 50/50, ~ 60/40, ratio of charge/below charge Voltage.

Maybe a just 30V 100W transformer and a bridge?

G-

TomW · « **Reply #14 on:** June 01, 2005, 06:17:31 AM »

Chris;

Just curious: How are desulfators "obsolete and baaaad"?

My question, too. Mister George just seems to dump the comment occasionally to the forum but I would like to see his proof myself. Considering I have had success with pulse charging reclaiming batteries I would say it works fairly well and only cost was some electricity and on hand parts.And, personally, I think the 'leet speak just tells me I should ignore the posters comments. So after this I will.

T

Nando · « **Reply #15 on:** June 01, 2005, 09:59:57 AM »

ZUBBY:

The de-sulfator needs to operate for long term, several 100 hours for each battery to accomplish deep work and fully restore the battery.

Nando

georgeodjungle · « **Reply #16 on:** June 01, 2005, 11:04:10 PM »

it's luquid cadmiun sulfate

bad as in excessive heat, gassing & plates worp & extra power ya know.

Pulse sounds good.

how much extra power do they use?

even though i don't need to yet it only been 11 years.

i realy don't have extra power, cuz i'd give jack benny a run for his money.

as far as to play with the acid, not realy a good idea.

i just ment to get the batteries identical.

to reduce them from self draining parallel batteries.

the power thing again.

would fresh acid be better?

what do you do with the old stuff?

p.s.

this wab site is a great info tool.

nothing to lose · « **Reply #17 on:** June 02, 2005, 02:12:26 AM »

"it's luquid cadmium sulfate "

Is that like turning a lead acid into a cadium battery then?

"bad as in excessive heat, gassing & plates worp & extra power ya know"

Don't think any of that is a concern. Any extra power used is probably offset by not paying money for expensinve additives, and using wind power or such would basiclly be free anyway. Not much cost if using grid power either.

"as far as to play with the acid, not realy a good idea.

i just ment to get the batteries identical.

to reduce them from self draining parallel batteries."

That will never get them identical because the problem is not the acid, it's the plates!

You need to learn how lead acid batteries work. I am tired and may not be exact here, but close enough.

Durring discharge the acid forms sulphates on the lead plates. Durring recharging the sulfates disolve back into the acid. Over time some sulfates will crystalize on the plates, then they do not disolve back into the acid as they should. This both weakens the acid and insulates the plate. What happens then is charging the battery become harder, the battery does not put out as much power also. You need to get the sulphates disolved back into the acid and off the plates to restore the abilty of the battery to charge and discharge correctly like when new. That is what pulse or desulphate and EDTA is supposed to do.

That is also why you should not mix the acids as you had said to do. You are not doing anything to the sulphates on the plates which are the actual problem in the weak cell. You either have a sulphate problem or you do not. If you have a problem then the acid is weaker than it should be, so if you mix half weak acid with full strenght acid from cells that do not have a problem, then what are you doing? You are diluting the full acid to less than full then putting it back into a cell that was fine, now making it weak. You encrease the acid strenght from the weak cell also, now if you get those sulphates off the plates and back into the acid in the weak cells you will have acid stronger than it should be.

SO, you have weak cells that are too strong and strong cells that are too weak, not too good I would think. Course maybe someday if all the sulphates ever disolve back into the acid in all cells at the same time, then if you mixed them you might get back to the original acids strenghts in each cell. But I would not count on it, and why bother all that work and danger playing with the acid to get back to were you started when it doesn't do anything in between really.

"would fresh acid be better?

what do you do with the old stuff?"

NEVER, as explained above it's the sulphtes on the plates why the acid got weak, new acid and then disolving sulphates back into the acid will make it too strong.

If you ever have old stuff, store it safely well marked, if you have a problem sometime like a spill or leaking battery you fixed, you can refill with the old used acid. Chareg the battery a few times to disolve any sulphates on the plates, then check specific gravity of the acid and if needed mix just a little pure acid to bring it up to the correct level.

For instance I had a friend that put a brand new battery that was too large in his car, it moved a tiny bit, rubbed the alternator fan, wore a hole in the battery, sprayed acid all over under the hood from one cell. Had I known then what I know now, I could have repaired that $60 new battery sealling the hole and refilled with used acid. Being new no sulphate problems so it would have been easy to charge it a few times then if needed add a little pure acid to bring the specific gravity to the correct level.

But that was many years ago.

Another time I had bought a brand new deep cycle, on the way home I slammed on the brakes to avoid hitting a deer. Next day I found the new battery dumped over and was empty. What a mess I had there! Only sulphates in that one was caused by just selfdischarge while sitting in the store waiting to be sold. It was easy to refill and use.

That's what I use old acids for if/when I have any. Other uses like making hydrogen but I won't go into that now.

jimjjnn · « **Reply #18 on:** June 02, 2005, 06:43:24 AM »

NTL said it all ands a very good job of it. Keep your acid as is and use a pulse de-sulphator. It will take awhile as those batteries are probably large. The acid is still there, just in another form

News:

Author Topic: Reconditioned 8 Volt Trojan Batteries (Read 23663 times)