Author Topic: NiCds questions  (Read 8592 times)

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Bruce S

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NiCds questions
« on: June 15, 2005, 04:55:02 PM »
Hello All;

For years now have been reading and learning greatly from all the past posts.

Through this forum I have even taught my 14-year-old daughter how to build many a small scale "winders" as we've come to call them. Which, for me is proof-of-concept Meaning I can still solder things or lawn ornaments, where we make use of whatever happens to be around to get a desired outcome.

Nothing large scale, St. Louis City, where we live frowns on these things without having 15 dozen committees to discuss whether they should allow such unsightly things. But enough ranting.

My questions are thus.

Given the knowledge that the NiCd batteries are not environmentally right, but still having thousands around and that these types of batteries are more suited for the deep-cycle use that the sealed and flooded lead-acid must have a constant vigil against

.

In short what are the thoughts of this forums minds to these questions?


  1. ) Using the NiCds instead of SLAs
  2. ) Long term use of the NiCds, until they are completely worn out then sending them to the recycler.
  3. ) Current draw on the NiCds versus other types.


My reasons are:

A fellow employee just took possession of an Areo-Rider PAV (Power Assisted Vehicle). Sadly it came with SLAs which are okay for starters, but they are heavy and the distance he takes it means that the batteries are all but empty when he arrives and we all know that SLAs cannot continue to take this abuse and live very long. Abuse being more that 60 % depleted.

Our company has hundreds of NiCds that we can only use for two years and then must take them out of service, as they are used for medical devices. I purposed that we used these instead of purchasing new SLAs or NiMhs partly due to the costs and we are very big in recycling.

     I am not too sure where to post this, so I thought I would just put it out here for all to read, see and comment on.

All ideas, suggestions, and questions will be greatly appreciated.  

Bruce
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 04:55:02 PM by (unknown) »
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joelhacker

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2005, 01:39:03 PM »
Under Normal usage, the life expectancy of a Nicad is about 2 years.

The reason for that is that every body calls it cell "memory" which

is just gassing inside the batteries which is suposed to act the

same affect as sulfating on the plates of a lead-acid battery.


I would suggest two things...


1. Take your friend SLA batter and hook it up to a desulphator and

see if you can get it back into condition.


2. Go to your local hobby shop (especially if you can get all those

NiCAD batteries for free and buy a pulse charger/rejuvinator.


This may be able to correct the condition.  However, be careful...

It will take a lot of Nicads to match the power output of a

lead-acid battery and WARNING!!!  the voltage curves on a NiCAD

battery are pretty flat all the way towards total discharge which

may cause you some troubles in monitoring the state of the charge.


Good Luck!

« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 01:39:03 PM by joelhacker »

jimjjnn

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2005, 02:01:32 PM »
I have some old and newer ni-cads. The older ones I have to zap every 3 years to get rid of the bridging spikes in them. They are 15 years old now. As AAs Cs And D cells. The newer batts have been changed in the last few years and don't seem to have a memory. I have a batt charger that has  a "conditioning" setting that seems to work pretty good . I think it drains the batt completely and then I switch it over to charge after an hour or so and charge for 18-24 hours. Works great for me
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 02:01:32 PM by jimjjnn »

jimjjnn

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2005, 02:05:44 PM »
BTW, I zap them with a 12 volt battery charger for just a second. Do it safely tho as ni-cads can explode. I have a single cell batt holder with wire leads that I connect the charger to and move the charger around a corner then flip the switch for about 1 second. SAFETY FIRST ALWAYS !!!!!
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 02:05:44 PM by jimjjnn »

Bruce S

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2005, 03:00:11 PM »
Joel;

  Thanks for the suggestions.

No problem with the memory on the batts tho. I desgined to battery bank to have 40vac with 40Ah, the motor is rated at 600watts. This should give him a round trip of little more than 2hrs driving before getting in the too low area. The 40Ah was so the batts would be in the useage area of 90 - 95% .

The batts come free. anybody want some? once I have 4 full set built I'd like to offer them to all here for nothing more than shipping costs.

No warranty other than they will have a sticker with showing they were tested and what the energy level is. I think that many here ahev given me and my family hours of enjoyment reading/ learning so why not give back.


In the energy versus weight area: the NiCds beat SLAs by almost 2:1 if designed and charged correctly.

I/we use a three step smart charger.


BTW: The SLAs are new 3x12v @17Ah barley gets him 12 miles due to our "gently rolling hills".

Saw the Desulfinator on here a while back bulit it and have used it for ALL kinds of batteries, using what some would call common sense safety, of course nowadays it doesn't seem so common.


Cheers!

« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 03:00:11 PM by Bruce S »
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Bruce S

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2005, 03:05:55 PM »
Jimjjnn;

  Ditto on the age of the batts. I have ones 5 years old and have just as much energy as the newer ones. I think it's the way they're taken care of.

I used to do the "zap" thing, there used to be an old trick of shorting a car batt on a very (think Michigan) cold day that would internally heat up the batt and the car would then start.

Had a small H2 plasma ball singe may eyebrows , I learnt real fast not do to do that again.

In truth the newer smart chagers do a real good job of doing the deep/ long/ trickle type charing that NiCds seem to thrive on, but the best is really using them.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 03:05:55 PM by Bruce S »
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jimjjnn

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2005, 03:27:11 PM »
When I was in the auto parts business, I had a customer with bad alternator buy a batt from me tho he knew it was the alternator. He shorted across it to warm it up for starting in the winter. The battery blew up and he threatened a law suit. Luckily we had written on his warrantee that he had a bad alternator. We gave him a new battery and told him we were sending his old one into the manufacturer for analysis. The burns on his hands and face told the story as he backed off real fast since we now had the evidence and he couldn't get it back since he agreed to taking the new battery. Needless to say, we never saw him again. I have a lot of "Horror" stories from that period in my life. Cars burning in our parking lot, Naked ladies coming in(Really miss that now),Leaking fuel lines and people wondering why there engines use too much gas now. Also, nothing like going to work and finding a body in the dumpster.That's another story tho.

To top it off, they would always blame us and me in particular.

Interesting period in my life. Would never be in that business again.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 03:27:11 PM by jimjjnn »

jimjjnn

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2005, 03:30:25 PM »
Every battery operated device in our house has nicads. Been using them for at least 25 years. Real early D cells would last a month. How I hated them. Almost quit using nicads till I found the zap trick.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 03:30:25 PM by jimjjnn »

joelhacker

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2005, 04:58:31 PM »
I apologize for the mis-assumptions about the size of batteries that you are using.

I also did not know about the "zapping" of nicad batteries and will have to try

that.  (Just bought a desulphator a few weeks ago and am now busyily trying to

restore some old lead-acid batteries of my own.)


That is why I love this forum...always something new to learn.  Thanks again for

the corrections and updates as to what I didn't know.


Also, where do you live if you are offering free nicad batteries at 40AH...that's one

big battery!!!


I know that many of us would be willing to pay for some handling and shipping to get

ahold of a few of those!

« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 04:58:31 PM by joelhacker »

Bruce S

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2005, 05:08:08 PM »
Yep;

 Have lots of stories similar. Tho I was the buyer side of working on cars. Many a beer paid for by someone who JUSt needed this or that done on there cars. Never did get the naked ladies tho....

« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 05:08:08 PM by Bruce S »
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richhagen

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2005, 05:24:54 PM »
You know, I have a different occupation, but thats starting to sound like my job.  Rich
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 05:24:54 PM by richhagen »
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Bruce S

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2005, 05:37:18 PM »
JoelHacker;

   No apologies ness. Anytime someone takes the time to offer advise I'm all ears.

      And sorry for the way the size looks, these units are actually not more than (Using US measurements) 3.5" wide by 7" tall by 1" thick and are made up of 1.2vx1300mH "C" size individuals that are hot glued and solder in a 4x4 stack to get 19.2v@1300mH for portable powering of a certain medical device. and to get the current up to 40Ah is just making use of series / parrallel connections.

Since we have 1000s of these units and by many many rules, we have to swap out these batts on a 2 year rotation;I missed out on the 200 sets that went back to the recycler ( was on Vacation), I now am on the second swapping round. Just envision seeing 200+ 19.2vdc @1300mH NiCd packs setting around waiting to be used

Anyway by using these in different series / parallel versions we the poorer ones build our freebie backs to our own specs and away we go.

Using some of the math I've taken to get me here , the energy density for EVs the SLAs max at 25watts/Kg where as the NiCds are coming in at ( in real life testing) 40watts/Kg. The theoritical math show 60, BUT we all know theroy is just that.

I have pic of the PAV, and can post them later.

The company is doing a press release here is St. Louis, MO. USA and I'm not allowed to post these until a week later.

Still, if there is anyone interested in these, they love the 3 step smart chargers and free to cheap is always a good deal.

Thus the main reason for my posting about the use of these in other uses in place of the deep cycle batts for home / cottage use.

I do understand that at some point there will be a density trade off but haven't the time to do the math on where the break even point is.

Any of the wind guys have any info on this?


ALL: There is no handling fee, just the cost of shipping. Most everyone here has given so much to further my education, just pay the shipping and I'm good, they weigh in at 8.5lbs/set of 5 on a mailing scale. I use banks of 10 to bring the current upto useable DC levels.


Cheers!!

Bruce


 

« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 05:37:18 PM by Bruce S »
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Bruce S

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2005, 05:40:36 PM »
I'm with you on that one.

I would egt a lot more done if it weren't for this job.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 05:40:36 PM by Bruce S »
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jimjjnn

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2005, 06:00:44 PM »
I have zapped individual cells in my batt powered drill by 1st,charge the pack all the way full, then check voltage on each cell and when I find the low cell(s), I connect my 12 volt battert charger on each end of the battery with the clips and get around the corner and turn on the charger for 1 second approximately. If you have a totally shorted battery, it will do one of 2 things get hot or blow up. I have only had 1 battery ever blow up in 25 years. BE VERY SAFE DOING THIS AND DON"T LOOK AT THE BATTERY WHILE SWITCHING THE CHARGER ON. Nicads also have steel in them, so high velocity steel and other parts of the battery can cause very serious injury.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 06:00:44 PM by jimjjnn »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2005, 06:38:24 PM »
Nicads also have CADMIUM in them.  Very toxic.  So do it in a disposable plastic container and treat it as hazardous waste (i.e. send it to a nicad recycler, disposable plastic container and all) if it goes BANG!


(At least it's not as bad as beryllium)


NiCads are dandy - much better than lead-acids.  But they're not the solution for all problems.  That's because cadmium is rare.  (I understand there are NO cadmium mines - it appears as a minor impurity in zinc ore.)


NiCads would make DANDY starting batteries for cars.  (With the sintered-plate models of decades back you could crank a car with a single string of 10 D-cells.  Very low internal resistance - bend a paper clip to short one out and it would immediately glow orange, soften, and fall off.)  But the world's known supply of cadmium isn't enough to build one battery for each car.


(Or at least that's what Popular Science said, back in the day.)


So if you've got stacks of usable NiCads going begging, GRAB 'em.  And dance all the way home.  B-)

« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 06:38:24 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

jimjjnn

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2005, 07:04:26 PM »
There is an old "New Jersey Zinc Mining company above Minturn ,Colorado that had so much cadmium that they dumped it in the river down the canyon. Killed all the fish and a lot of the wildlife that drank from the stream. Whatever you do with Nicads , DO NOT BURN THEM . They smell awful and have a deadly gas emission that can kill.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 07:04:26 PM by jimjjnn »

jimjjnn

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2005, 07:07:34 PM »
I forgot . In my previous post. It's the cadmium that shouldn't be heated or burned that gives off the gas.Sorry about that.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 07:07:34 PM by jimjjnn »

wildbill hickup

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2005, 01:17:31 AM »
Bruce,


Email me at wildbill_hickup at yahoo.com. I would like more info on those Nicd packs. Possably interested in 10 - 30 of them if you can spare that many.


Wildbill

« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 01:17:31 AM by wildbill hickup »

ghurd

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2005, 07:26:15 AM »
It's often called 'Sparking the Whiskers' or so.

It doesn't take a second.

I do it by touching the 12V wire to the battery about as short as I can.

As short as I can.

Like dotting an 'I' or making a period.

G-

« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 07:26:15 AM by ghurd »
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Bruce S

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2005, 07:55:41 AM »
jimjjnn;

 Did they ever get that mess cleaned up? seams to be such a waste when all that could've been used to lower the price of the NiCds and make renweable energy so much easier.

Bruce
« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 07:55:41 AM by Bruce S »
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Bruce S

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2005, 08:02:16 AM »
I'm still dancing.<:-))

And I'm all for using these batteries up ( that is even possible)then sending the spent units off to a good recycler that will then turn them back into NiCds again.


Bruce

« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 08:02:16 AM by Bruce S »
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superdave

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2005, 08:22:11 AM »
Please let me know what shipping to 28714 would be for a couple of those!

Thanks

Dave    imprezzadude@yahoo.com

« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 08:22:11 AM by superdave »

Bruce S

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2005, 09:56:32 AM »
For two of these rated at 19.2vdc @1300mH each it's about $6.00 USD

« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 09:56:32 AM by Bruce S »
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superdave

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2005, 11:59:44 AM »
Please email me with shipping details and how you need to be paid.

thanks

Dave
« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 11:59:44 AM by superdave »

BrianK

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2005, 04:48:34 PM »
I also would be interested in some of those I would be more than happy to pay shipping on some of those.


  .

« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 04:48:34 PM by BrianK »

Bruce S

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2005, 11:15:27 AM »
BrianK

No problem;

 I'm getting a lot of these ready for shipping. The best way would be for me to ship these freight collect. The price is no different, just you have to pay the UPS driver or pick them up at your local UPS office.

I should be able to ship all who have asked out by next week. Work keeps getting in the way(:-)

By some is 2 good to start with in series that would be about 38vdc@1.3Ah.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2005, 11:15:27 AM by Bruce S »
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Bruce S

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2005, 11:23:06 AM »
superdave & All;

   I've checked and the best way to send these so no one has to worry about paying, is to send them freight collect. No diff in the shipping costs, just need to pay the delivery person. They come ground and we get a hefty discount from UPS so I'll fill the orders as quick as possible next week.

The analyzer can only do 4 at a time and I wasn't too sure how well these would be received.

I would love to put a whole bank of these up against a Deep cycle setup to see which is more effective as storage for a windcharger.

Ed--

Got a small spot for doing some testing for the rest of us?

St. Louis doesn't allow these in my back yard anymore, Judge was REALLLLLY!! mean this last time out.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2005, 11:23:06 AM by Bruce S »
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Drives

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2005, 02:14:08 PM »
Bruce


Your offer is generous, put me on your list for a shipment.  My email is above.  


Thanks.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2005, 02:14:08 PM by Drives »

Bruce S

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2005, 03:08:46 PM »
No prob.

Wildbill is up 1st for 30 there are two others for a couple how many shall I put you in for?

I'm doing this as time allows so it may be next week or later to receive them.


Bruce

« Last Edit: June 17, 2005, 03:08:46 PM by Bruce S »
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Drives

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2005, 07:05:48 PM »
Bruce, I would be very happy with a quantity of 10 packs if you have that many to spare.  Thanks a bunch!
« Last Edit: June 17, 2005, 07:05:48 PM by Drives »

veewee77

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2005, 09:47:00 AM »
Bruce,


Please send me up to 20 packs if you have that many left.


Doug Simpson

612 W De Queen Ave

De Queen, AR 71832


Thank you.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2005, 09:47:00 AM by veewee77 »

BrianK

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2005, 09:19:42 PM »
Bruce


 E-mail me if you have any of those left Please


  mrohiofats@aol.com


 .

« Last Edit: June 19, 2005, 09:19:42 PM by BrianK »

superdave

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Re: NiCds questions
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2005, 08:05:59 AM »
Howdy i need to get 4 of those instead of 2 if thats ok. Please email me at imprezzadude@yahoo.com  let me know what you need from me!

Thanks

Dave
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 08:05:59 AM by superdave »