thought this might be of interest

[bob golding]

hi all, this might be old news but i did do a search first and didnt  find anything.

http://www.phm.gov.au/australia_innovates/view/develop.html

looks good. wonder how long before we can buy one?

bob golding

[wpowokal]

Yep been around for at least 30 years, company is concerntarting on comercial installations as opposed to domestic.

Would be good if they ever see their way to allow the little people a look in. I think they may have been bought out by "vested interests".

Lets face it one would never need to buy new batteries, need more storage just buy another poly tank and more liquid. Need more Kw oh another square metre of plate, 1M sq/Kw roughly.

Us little people should not hold our breath, it ain't dribling down to our level in our lifetime.

allan down under

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

Actually the battery has been ready for manufacturing only since 1997.

But given that an RE home was part of the original demo and we don't have such a product on the market after 8 years I'm with you in not holding my breath waiting for it now.

[richhagen]

Redox 'batteries' are for sale now.  They just cost a lot of cash.  These folks will sell you one now.....if you have got the money.  

http://www.vrbpower.com/

For the rest of us I suspect we'll be waiting a while for this.  Because it has increased mechanical complexity compared to storage batteries, I suspect it will be more easily adapted to larger systems.  I doubt you'll see a 48V 500 Amp hour equivalent system for quite a while.  I should, however, be quite an exciting prospect for utility scale wind farm owners.  Rich

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

I'd like to see one for a travel trailer power supply.  There's a lot of space under the floor that could be used for the storage tanks.  Would be lovely to be able to store a month's power - or enough to run an air conditioner for several days.  They already have tanks in the 40 galon range for drinking, grey waste, and black waste.  A couple more tanks for the battery solutions and a small pump/membrane unit would be a good match.  Pick the size (or state-of-fill) for the amount of storage you want and weight you're willing to accept.

Downside might be the energy density:  Given the low solubility of vanadium compounds there might be so much "wasted" mass in the solution that the weight would be prohibitive.  (But it IS hard to do worse than lead-acid batteries.  B-)  )

Another downside might be freezing point.  B-(

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

The page, and at least one below it, is all flash and stylesheets.  It doesn't display on my browser.

If they're serious about selling their stuff (or otherwise making business contacts) they'd pay more attention to how their web site displays on the plethora of browsers out there, rather than putting up a pretty-looking hack-job that, on some browsers, shows nothing but their logo.

I'm not going to go browser-shopping (or use IE, with security bugs so bad the Dept of Homeland Security recommends never using it), just to find the one their web designer used.

[Aelric]

I use opera and love it, great browser, lets me open multiple windows within itself.  It can masquerade as IE or netscape or several others, has flash support and much more.  Its shareware with no expiration on it.  Just a banner in the top (easy enough to ignore hehehe) and its super fast, thats what I like most about it.  When I do research I hate waiting for another IE window to pop up (and as you mentioned it has some nasty security holes) but opera opens next window instantly.

I think it would be wonderful if they would get that battery out to market.  Can it be recharged or is it a one use only thing like the aluminum saltwater batteries?

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

Rechargable.  (That's the whole point.)

You can also use it as a "DC Transformer".  The cells all share a pair of circulation systems, one for the positive-plate solution, one for the negative.  You can charge at one voltage and current, discharge at another, without changing connections - just put a bunch in series and connect the charging and discharging taps at the appropriate voltage levels.  And you can do both at the same time, so it acts like an  autotransformer.  (Current through the cells between the lower tap and the common (ground) end is the sum of the signed currents (which means the difference if one is charging and the other discharging), current through the cells between the taps is the current through the higher tap.

How'd you like to charge your cells at 48V and discharge them at 120 DC for some loads, 12V for others, without any cell-balancing issues?  Or adjust the charging tap automatically to get the most out of your mill in varying wind conditions?  Or make a modified-sine inverter out of four switching transistors and a little control electronics?  (Or a pure-sine inverter out of a bunch of transistors and a little control electronics?)

[bob golding]

yes its a bit of a contradition, if thats the right word, that we never get the new technology, and have to make do with the old polluting, ineffcient stuff, while the big boys get to play with the new stuff. whereas we could  proberly make better use of it. i know this is the way it works, but it  p***s me off sometimes. ohh well the chinese are catching up fast ,and they sell to anybody. ;-). certainly here in the UK if you have a good idea it is a uphill struggle to get funding, this is an area i am very familular with having worked in cambridge  for years. lots of start ups get swallowed by  big corparations AFTER they have starved to get their idea off the ground. opps better  put this in rants and opinions i think.

bob golding

[thunderhead]

Yet another downside is that vanadium is toxic, and stays in the environment for a long time.  A leak in your battery could result in soluble vanadium being dumped on the ground, which might then become permanently contaminated.

"The EPA requires discharges or spills of 1,000 pounds or more of vanadium into the environment to be reported."

"The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has recommended that 35 mg/m3 of vanadium be considered immediately dangerous to life and health. This is the exposure level of a chemical that is likely to cause permanent health problems or death."

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts58.html

Of course, similar arguments can be made against lead - but the lead salts in lead acid batteries are not that soluble, and there are no pipes or pumps to develop leaks.

[finnsawyer]

One question that comes to mind is how much vanadium could be mined or made available each year?  Also, how dense is the stuff?  I. E. How heavy will the batteries be.  That said, the effort seems to have been an honest one.

[bob golding]

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/04/the_vanadium_ba.php

thats where i first noticed the technology. the figures are on that site somewhere.

bob golding

[nickelbender]

Also of interest Nissan anounced several months ago it would by batteries form Toyota for hybrids....

Odd thing to do because Japanese car companies hoard and are very predatory Ford is having trouble getting enough batteries for their hybrid program from Sanyo for this very reason.

So why am I telling you this story that goes no place?

Because I hear through the grape vine that buying Toyota nickel batteries for Nissan is a temp measure and Nissan has developed a Lithium Ion battery both cheaper than nickel and with a higher energy density.

I got this info from a man at SAFT.

Wouldn't it be nice to dump the lead?