Bigger Better Battery Bubbling

[wooferhound]

I'm excited that I have bought a New Larger Deep Cycle battery for my small 50w 12v Solar power system.

http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/album82

but there are some differences in the way the batteries are reacting. Here is what's been happnin'

First battery is a normal 30 amphour car battery, featured in the link above. Two years old but hardly used. I had set the charge voltage to 14.4 volts. When the battery posts were at that voltage the six cells would bubble slowly. A bubble every 3 seconds in one of the cells somewhere. I was under the impression this is good.

Second battery is a New Deep Cycle 135 amphour unbranded Blemished battery from a Blemished battery store that I've been using for 20+ years. I used the same charge voltage of 14.4 volts but I never saw a bubble for 3 days. Today I started adjusting the voltage up and the battery started bubbling at 15 volts. At 15.3 volts it was bubbling like the first battery about every 3 seconds somewhere.

So here come the questions . . .

Does Bubbling indicate the State of charge in anyway ?

Will Bubbling help or harm the battery ?

Is Bubbling used to determine when Equalizing is happening ?

Why are these 2 batteries acting differently ?

W o o f -={(

[ghurd]

Morningstar says excessive bubbling is a sign of batteries getting worn out.

I say if the charge current is low compared to the AH, then the batteries bubble less.

I also say bubbling isn't much at 14.4V.  The infrequent bubble will stir up the acid a bit.

But 15.2V is an equalization charge by some standards and should bubble a lot.

A 2 and 20+ year old battery should act different.

This is happening with 3A?

G-

[wooferhound]

The second battery is new

The battery store I've been using for 20+ years

[luckeydog]

 A larger battery has larger plates so it is able to absorb the current over a larger area. (absorb may not be the appropriate term here in this case)

if you were to take a battery say the size of a motorcycle battery and apply the same rate of charge  as you do to say a group 31 battery the smaller battery will bubble more.

when a battery is approaching it's full capacity it will continue to bubble at a faster rate.

  I hope this helps.

  Luckeydog

.

[Flux]

Yes the larger the capacity the more current it needs to make it bubble. With large capacities and small current there comes a time when there is no real need to control the voltage.

If the charging current is less than the Ah capacity divided by 20 then at least for short term use there is no real need for a charge control. If the battery is big enough

or the charge low enough then you may reach a stage where the self discharge prevents you from keeping it fully charged.

Things also depend on the plate material. High antimony content plates stand cyclic duty better than calcium and are used for heavy traction duty and the large industrial cells. They take more volts to gas and have a higher self discharge and will need a greater charging current to keep them in good condition

Calcium grid batteries have less self discharge and will fully charge with a lower voltage. They are more suitable for standby duty but they do seem more temperamental than the ancient rugged 5% Antimony plates.

There doesn't seem to be a foolproof and perfect battery for any particular job no more than there is the ideal way to treat batteries under various load conditions. What works best for a boat or caravan may not be the best way to treat a solar installation.

For solar and wet batteries there is not likely to be a voltage that you can set and ignore it. If you float at just below gassing voltage most of the time it should be reasonably fine but unless you have the extra charging capacity to give them a good equalising charge perhaps once a month and really stir up the electrolyte you may get stratification of the electrolyte, gas layer build up on the plates and in bad cases sulphating if your load is great enough. Even with 2 stage charging you may still need to equalise from a separate source every few months unless you have significant excess charging capability.

With only 50W of solar you will not be able to use a very big battery if you are using significant power unless you have a back up charging source to give it a boost especially if you have any days without sun.

Flux

[wooferhound]

If the Batteries are Bubbling

does it mean anything ?

Besides Hydrogen & Oxygen

[Flux]

Just means that they are reasonably well charged, depending on the rate of bubbling.

At any point above about 13.8v there will be some bubble formation but it will be modest and consume little water. Above 14v the true gassing stage starts and at about 15v things gas freely and if kept in this state they consume lots of water and if the time in this state is not restricted then plate life will suffer.

All this bubbling is related to the length of time on charge and also to the charge current. At low currents the plates can absorb most of the gas production but the more charged they are the lower the current needs to be, otherwise you just make gas and do no useful charging. Prolonged significant bubbling is not useful but some slight bubble formation in normal use seems inevitable without VRLA technology are limited electrolyte capacity ( all wet cells bubble to some extent).

Flux

[tecker]

Bubbling is electrolisis As the battery discharges the water molecules are formed and seperated from the sulphate ions the water molecules groupe together and seep in to the porus lead .During charging the sulphate creats a good path to the negitive plate and the water bonds with the sulphate ions and seperates at the same time and liberates hh0. This seperation accounts for the increase in impedance .

[tecker]

So bubbling is a normal coarse but not necessarily a good thing .  Indicating the cell was  discharged fairly low or not charged for a while . It's is very noticable when a sultaed plate is turning the corner on the pulser.

[tecker]

Sorry the coffee was still brewing and I was only smelling that process so you could say my spelling was smelling but the logic is in tact.

[SparWeb]

You need one of these:

"Eye halve a spelling chequer

It came with my pea sea

It plainly marques four my revue

Miss steaks eye kin knot sea."

[tecker]

If you could look at the solution you would see Water molecules and acid molecules with the the  hydroxide ion and the sulfur hydroxide making the dipole we desire .In a battery you will always see a solution containing water molecules and the sulfuric acid dipoles the concentration somewhere around 4.5 M to 6M  with 3 M giving the two volt  Ie the Sp indicating the soc. This dipole lends itself to the oxidation reduction happening at the plates namely pbso4 +2e at the anode and pbso4+ h20 at the cathode.

[tecker]

No doubt I think tannin and caffine is nessesary for a good shemll shelecker.

[wooferhound]

OK, I'm going to make some assumptions based on Y'alls replies  . . .

New Batteries bubble less than older batteries.

Larger batteries bubble less than smaller batteries.

Lots of bubbles is bad, an Occasional bubble is good.

Drink Coffee before making Comments.

[DamonHD]

And keep the coffee out of your batteries.

The status of bubbling coffee is not yet settled.

Rgds

Damon

[tecker]

10 4

[framistan]

I work with batteries at a telephone central office. They are

VERY LARGE batteries (3 ft tall), and there are HUNDREDS of

them that I deal with.  So I have some knowledge of the

bubbling problem you mentioned.  Bubbling is normal when

batteries are being charged.  Bubbling should pretty much

stop when battery is fully charged.  Further charging will

only bubble away the water and shorten the lifespan of the

battery.  Over charging the battery will not give you any

more amp hours.... it only results in reducing the lifespan

of the battery(and heats it up). I would turn down the voltage

setting of the charger if possible. so.. be sure to use a

charge controller on your

battery between the battery and the source (wind-gen or solarcells).

The batteries at telephone offices typically have lifespans of

at least 30 years or more.... because they are not overcharged and

they don't discharge very much when used (because the diesel-gen

kicks-on during power outages), and because they are  kept at

room temperature.  High temps (above 70 deg f.) and vibration and over-

charging is death lead acid batteries.  Thats why your car

battery only lasts about 4 years... High temperatures, vibration

under the hood. Hope this helps.