Need Advice: Used Batteries

[shaniac]

Greetings, I have chance to pick up 16 used Rolls Surette S-460 bats. They were used for 4 years as backup batteries and were kept on float the whole time. Never cycled!!!

I would like to present you guys the facts of what I know, and then get your thoughts on if this is a decent deal or if i should run away as fast as possible.

They have not been charged since June of last year. So the voltage reading off of a random three is at a miserable 4.1. I understand that at 5.95 a 6 volt batter is at 0% charge...

 (based on this chart: http://www.ccis.com/home/mnemeth/12volt/voltchart2.gif )

... so I am feeling that these bats have been discharged to a point where they will never perform at 100% or possibly even moderately good service.

The guy is asking $180 per and is local enough I can get them. Because of the state of charge I told him they may never recover and he is placing them on a charger over the weekend to see what they come up to.

So presuming we have no idea of how they were cared for (water wise) but they were store at FLOAT for several years, do you think this is a decent deal of should I just buy new ones and take the price hit.

Other facts: Yes I am low on cash, so a deal would be nice right now. Thus the temptation.

The bats will be used as my primary power source on my off grid home.

No, I will not be sucked in to the GOOD DEAL buying frenzy as long as I have this board to keep me in check.  

Anything else that would be helpful?

As always, thanks for your time folks!! Love this board!!!!

- Steve

[kurt]

offer him scrap value because that is all he is gonna get out of them after treating them like that. any use you get out of them is bonus.

[dbcollen]

Where are you located, I may be able to get you new l-16s relatively cheaply they are made by MK battery and I have had no problems with them and have installed them in many locations after the prices on the Rolls went through the roof last year. also, in my experience, the rolls aren't any better than the trojans, or the MKs and the trojans have NO warranty.

You may be able to do a corrective equalization on those rolls s460s if you have acess to grid power and are willing to babysit them.

Here is the corrective equalization data from Rolls

Corrective Equalization - Method

Corrective Equalization can take a very long time depending on the degree of sulfation. It is not recommended to equalize with a generator as some generators produce low grade AC that is not properly filtered by the inverter. This is especially true at higher voltages.

1. , If you have hydrocaps remove during equalization.
   
2. , Set charging controls to the highest voltage allowable by the charge controller (inverter). If the bank is severely sulfated or available current is very limited, charge control can be removed or by-passed. Temperature should be monitored very, very closely and keep below 125ºF.
   
3. , Charge at a low DC current (5 A per 100 AH of battery capacity). If grid power is not available use solar panels or a good DC source when possible. At high voltages, charging with generator can be difficult and hard on the inverter.
   
4. , Once an hour, measure and record the specific gravity and temperature of a test cell. If the temperature rises above 115ºF (46ºC) and approaches 125ºF (52ºC) remove the batteries from charge. (For temperature measurement choose a center cell, if applicable).
   
5. , If severely sulfated, it may take many hours for the specific gravity to rise.
   
6. , Once the specific gravity begins to rise the bank voltage will most likely drop or the charging current will increase. The charging current may need to be lowered if temperature approaches 125ºF (46ºC). If the charge controller was by passed, it should now be used or put back in line.
   
7. , Continue measuring the specific gravity until 1.265 is reached.
   
8. , Charge for another 3 hours. Add water to maintain the electrolyte above the plates.
   
9. , Allow bank to cool and check and record the specific gravity of each cell. The gravities should be 1.265 ± 0.005 or lower. Check the cell electrolyte levels and add water IF necessary.
   
   

Dustin

[zeusmorg]

 I just don't see this as a good deal, first off it's more than 1/2 the price of new ones and at 4 years less than 1/2 the life expectancy. If they won't measure up on a hydrometer test then PASS. (not just a surface voltage test which is very inaccurate to state of health of a battery). You can also load test, but I doubt you have the equipment required.

 Unless they can show some kind of usefulness I'd pass, and even then he'd have to come way down on the price. Scrap value would be 8.00 to 10.00 each approximately.

[bob g]

i might gamble on them at up to 50 bucks each,, "might" is the key word

your going to have alot of time trying to recover those batteries and your time is

worth something,, and a return on the gamble should be factored in as well.

at that price i would go another route, like a new set of anything that is deep cycle probably can be had for not much more.

forget the charge over the weekend.. even if they come up to voltage

this will be no indicator of what the true condition of the batteries are.

on second thought,, maybe i would gamble at 20 bucks each

bob g

[mettleramiel]

Like everyone else is saying, those batteries are more than likely garbage. You would have to do some kind of load test on them after the charge to be sure, but I'm willing to bet that after a whole year with no charge that even it the voltage did rise over weekend, it would instantly drop once a load was applied to them. I'm shocked that this guy would charge so much for those batts after being left to sit for so long. Either he knows nothing about batteries or he just has no moral conscience.

[shaniac]

Thanks, I am in N.California. The best price I have see so far locally on Interstate L-16s is $278.18 if I buy 12.

[dbcollen]

I can get you the MK 8L-16 for $275 each including tax and shipping if you want 12.

6v 370ah @ 20 hr rate.

Dustin

[hct]

Have found that measuring the impedance of cells in batteries will give you a good indication of each individual cell condition and shape , a HP 4328A is the standart that most batteries manufacture use ( the newer HP4338B cost over $ 5,000) the older model is very good and available on e-bay from 100 to several hundreds .

The lower the impedance , more effecient the charging and discharging becomes .

Variation in cell figurs should not be over 60% , the actual figure will varied in relation to size (a/H) chemistries ,age , state of charge , temperature .

Impedance is usualy the first reading , that I concentrate on .

Would appreciate any comments regarding this note .

[thirteen]

go to a auto parts store and you might be able to rent a load tester for the batteries that might help. That way you might see if they might be semi ok. Load test them and wait a little bit and load test them agian. To me the price is higher than it should be. Just an idea

[SteveCH]

I won't add any technical arguments, as they've been well covered by some people here smarter than me. However, a brief lesson per my experience. Some yr. ago, I purchased a bunch of 2 v. batteries, what kind and etc. don't matter. Like those you speak of, they'd been in a large set and not monitored or cared for over a couple yr. They charged up [prior to purchase], looked clean and good [I mean, they obviously hadn't been sitting outdoors under a tree or physically abused, cases clean and clear, terminals clean, etc., all that] and there were I think over a hundred of them. The friend who knew the seller and turned me on to the deal said, well, even if a few cells are bad, you'll be able to set up a system anyway with the good ones, there are so many.

The price was pretty decent, I was very short of cash, and I bit and hauled them home in a couple pickup loads.

Long story short, I was able to use them for almost a year. However, they were junk, it turned out, no matter what I did to "revive" them, and my storage was minimal to the point all I could really run at night [pv charging during day] was some minimal lighting. I wasted my money, in other words, and was left with having to find a place to get rid of them which turned out to be more hassle than it was worth.

I'd have been money, time, and usage ahead of the game to buy either new or demonstrably almost new batteries in a very small set with what money I had, even if that left me dealing with enlarging the set later on and in that case having to run a bank with cells of differing vintage. Live and learn.

By the way, I later purchased a 6 2v. set of those enormous C & D "phone co." batteries that were all the rage in some areas back in the 80s. Those worked out well for about five yr. I got them for about 1/6 the cost of new ones.

[Electron Skipper]

From the description- They are junk.

I Tried to revive a few last year that were fresh off a system- and there was no hope for them.  Which was too bad as I could have had 200 of them for scrap value.

So don't even pay scrap value for them, they should pay you to remove them- your gas or diesel has to be worth something.

Their design does not lend them to desulphating.  

They are just considered to be "Primary cells/batteries" and that is all.